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The simple fact that you cannot build the basic loadout with a box is stupid and anybody saying the contrary is very, very wrong to stay polite. The content of the havoc box is very poor ; you need 4 box to make a complete 5 man squad with las canon ? As for the terminator box, it's not just poor, it is outright insulting.
What's funny is that with this new kit, GW didn't even tried to improve terminator's rules. They're still t4, while havocs are t5 ?

No question it's wrong, I was just interjecting GWs possible thought process. "Look at all the different weapons you get!". "But I just want 5 of the same type". "Oh".

As an aside can Havocs still take special weapons as a codex option, or has that gone? If so obviously the Talon rule makes you want to take the heavy option but the kit completely lacks the arm options to arm them with specials, and even fails to equip them with the bare number of special weapons.

 bullyboy wrote:
No question it's wrong, I was just interjecting GWs possible thought process. "Look at all the different weapons you get!". "But I just want 5 of the same type". "Oh".

I don't think there was any real thought process behind the chaos design team and all of these problems are squarely on their shoulders and whoever greenlighted their laziness.

I think the design team isn't placing any thought to the game they make models to. I see it as more like "look at these 5 terminators I made" and then the team lead asked for some options to customize and the sculptor added a few and they called it a day. But that was it, the focus is on sculpting individual characters within the box rather than providing the customer with the options to make their unit characterful.

So for me, I think GW needs a new design lead for chaos. One that isn't missing the mark. There shouldn't be this many disappointed chaos players. It shouldn't need chaos white knights protecting the new releases. And for Chaos's sake who the hell put releasing a lazy terminator kit above new chaos bikers? That is a damn tragedy because new bikers are what is needed, not a boring terminator kit.

WhiteDog wrote:
The simple fact that you cannot build the basic loadout with a box is stupid and anybody saying the contrary is very, very wrong to stay polite. The content of the havoc box is very poor ; you need 4 box to make a complete 5 man squad with las canon ? As for the terminator box, it's not just poor, it is outright insulting.
What's funny is that with this new kit, GW didn't even tried to improve terminator's rules. They're still t4, while havocs are t5 ?

He here you can now make the cheapest possible terminators.

Great, are there enough basic equipment weapons?

No, .....

To my knowledge the GW design team designs the models, then rules are written for them. The processes are notionally kept separate but I've severe doubts they're not just told to 'limit the number of special weapons'. Contrast this with Battlefront (who are in fairness a fairly crappy company in their own right and are currently sinking to my knowledge). Their £30 BMP kit has options for both the BMP-1 and BMP-2 - which means 10 whole plastic hulls and turrets (plus various accessories). The same with their T55 kit (PSC goes even further, their version of the T-55 builds three different variants).

Another massively disappointing factor is that the Legs and torsos aren't separate, meaning the old Forge World conversion kits are in part useless. It also makes conversion work a notable paint.

It's a tremendous shame we didn't get a kit with 10 power fists (with claws that could be attached in order to make lightning claws and parts for chainfists), and 5 power swords, power axes, mauls and chain axes, plus the 15 various combi-weapon variants (bolters, plasma, flamer, melta) and then the 2 special weapons. But at that stage GW would probably be charging £50 a box.

Thankfully Forge World does offer combi-weapon arms, but those require some cutting and conversion work, which just leaves me inclined to make use of the Plastic heresy-era Terminators. I was hoping to get the Grave Warden terminators, but they are no longer in production.

I think I'll be sitting these models out (in fact I'll be sitting all of these new kits out, since they all are incredibly disappointing) bar Abaddon who I feel is somewhat justified in his cost (being a single figure of a notable scale and level of detail).

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
As an aside can Havocs still take special weapons as a codex option, or has that gone? If so obviously the Talon rule makes you want to take the heavy option but the kit completely lacks the arm options to arm them with specials, and even fails to equip them with the bare number of special weapons.

Sadly that option is gone now, only heavy weapons on havoks now except for the champ.

WhiteDog wrote:
The simple fact that you cannot build the basic loadout with a box is stupid

This I agree with, but...

WhiteDog wrote:
The content of the havoc box is very poor ; you need 4 box to make a complete 5 man squad with las canon ?

... this is just wrong. No idea how you come to the conclusion of "four boxes needed for one squad", since you need two boxes to arm four Havocs with Lascannons (each box coming with two, and only four Havocs can carry heavy weapons, the fifth is always the champion). Also: the default options for not-champion Havocs are Heavy Bolter or Lascannon - of which each box has two each - so one box of Havocs can indeed build a "basic loadout" of a full unit.

So, has anyone else noticed that Chosen can now take thunder hammers? ...but Terminators can't?

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
So, has anyone else noticed that Chosen can now take thunder hammers? ...but Terminators can't?

Chosen are such a strange unit. I refuse to touch them until they receive a kit on their own. You can basically arm them however you want at the moment and I don't trust that one bit. Odds are they get Trueborned next edition.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
So, has anyone else noticed that Chosen can now take thunder hammers? ...but Terminators can't?

Chosen are such a strange unit. I refuse to touch them until they receive a kit on their own. You can basically arm them however you want at the moment and I don't trust that one bit. Odds are they get Trueborned next edition.

or they jsut keep doing what they'vebeen since forever, ignore them competely

Chosen are such a strange unit. I refuse to touch them until they receive a kit on their own. You can basically arm them however you want at the moment and I don't trust that one bit. Odds are they get Trueborned next edition.

Yep, I second this.

I used to do a lot of kit bashing and converting. I've more or less stopped now because I know that my models may become obsolete when GW actually gets around to making them.

Who knows what Chosen will do next time around. They don't even have much of a niche right now anyway except for take some special weapons.

They need to have rules like Veterans do in HH, make them specialized against specific targets.

Also, a 2+ armour save a 2 wounds would go a long way.

 Roknar wrote:
Trying to make the kit work somewhat and looking at the poweraxe upgrade kti from forgeworld.
Problem is they are cataphractii so you'd have to cut of all the axes and then you'd still not have enough arms to make a complete default loadout...
So I tried just putting on the cataphractii arms, I mean, chaos do scrounge right?

could this work? Although I'm not sure where to get the combi bolter arms? seems to be only axes and special wepoins are sold seprately

I used to use some Cataphractii bits for fun on some random Terminators I did. This is the old basic Terminator box, so I'm not sure about scale-matching the newer, larger Terminators.

 Elbows wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
Trying to make the kit work somewhat and looking at the poweraxe upgrade kti from forgeworld.
Problem is they are cataphractii so you'd have to cut of all the axes and then you'd still not have enough arms to make a complete default loadout...
So I tried just putting on the cataphractii arms, I mean, chaos do scrounge right?

could this work? Although I'm not sure where to get the combi bolter arms? seems to be only axes and special wepoins are sold seprately

I used to use some Cataphractii bits for fun on some random Terminators I did. This is the old basic Terminator box, so I'm not sure about scale-matching the newer, larger Terminators.

Spoiler:

thanks, they don't seem to be a huge departure scalewise and the cataphractii aren't small either so it shouldn't be an issue.
It's just not really feasible unless you happen to have some bits. I still have some arms left over so I could just get the justaerin weapons and power axes.

A good counts-as for the Power Axes could be the Halberds from the GK Terminator kit. Would need to remove the extra hand off the halberd but that doesn't seem like such a hard task.

I will casually mention that in addition to the rotocannons, Pop Goes The Monkey also has a bunch of varieties of Cataphracti shoulders and chain axes.

Does anyone know if the Chaos Marines in the Shadowspear box are different sprues/molds or the exact same as the ones in the new regular Chaos Marines box? And if they're different do you think GW will eventually sell all the Chaos kits from Shadowspear separately?

The Shadowspear ones are different.

Just like the Plague Marines in the Dark Vengeance box were different than the Plague Marine box.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
So for me, I think GW needs a new design lead for chaos. One that isn't missing the mark. There shouldn't be this many disappointed chaos players. It shouldn't need chaos white knights protecting the new releases. And for Chaos's sake who the hell put releasing a lazy terminator kit above new chaos bikers? That is a damn tragedy because new bikers are what is needed, not a boring terminator kit.

Jes Goodwin is still there as oversight, no?

I mean think about the old kits that we've lost. They had lots of customisation options. I was even about thinking what I could use to spruce these up a bit to make them more unique. Looking at the old Chaos fantasy line models that are direct from GW now. Marauders, Knights, Warshrine, Lord on Manticore. Lots of chains, hooks, skulls, plenty of axes. These little fetishes are completely removed from most of the the kits today. I refuse to believe whoever is the lead on Chaos is in any way interested in the faction.Basically we're at the point where customising GW miniatures is getting increasingly difficult and if your army can't be unique to you then what's the point?

From the voxcast interviews the view I'm getting is that they are interested in promoting customization by mixing parts between different kits, not giving all the options in one kit - but that philosophy might only hold true for the Primaris line.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
From the voxcast interviews the view I'm getting is that they are interested in promoting customization by mixing parts between different kits, not giving all the options in one kit - but that philosophy might only hold true for the Primaris line.

Given the way GW minis are desgiend these days I think it's clear that this is demonstrably false.

There has definitely been a lot more bile for chaos than for other faction updates. GSC was nothing but praise. Death Guard didnt get this much hate, despite being the beginning of GWs monopose philosophy. DG did get hate for that, but that was the only complaint. With this release, many more people are disappointed.

Problem is, theres no way GW can win. You call not having chainaxes in the terminator kit "lazy" but if you had any decent number of weapon options that would add a new sprue and a box of 5 terminators would cost 70+ bucks, which people wont pay for a unit that doesn't even do well on the table.

Grey Knights and Space Marine terminators are boring by comparison, having next to no customization, but hey, they have lots of weapon options.

The bar that Chaos players have put their expectations is astronomically high. Yall want perfect rules, kits with every option under the sun, and for GW to give you all those models for free. It just ain't happening on any front.

I'm personally enjoying the kits and I'll have a fantastic chaos army when the slaanesh daemons and emperors children hit the scene. The new KoS, a horde of venomcrawlers, all supported by blastmasters and, hopefully, fulgrim.

drbored wrote:
Grey Knights ... terminators are boring...

drbored wrote:
...next to no customization...

drbored wrote:
... they have lots of weapon options.

Umm... what?

3 sprue Termis have no reason to be more expensive than their 2 sprue new kit except for "GW says so". Havocs have 3 sprues, CSM do have 3, many kits do. Restricting Termis to 2 is nothing but either being cheap or putting in less effort. And adding multiple copies of weapons you sculpted specifically for that kit is not that hard, soooo...yeah.

At least the Havocs and CSM look really nice. The Havoc champ is more imposing than most metal CSM heros!

I dropped into my lfgs yesterday and saw the chaos players building Havocs and stuff and for some reason a movie quote just popped into my head.

"Begun the Clone War has."

Monopose sculpts in a mass battle game is bad mmmkkk
Massively overpriced Monopse kits one tiny step above easy build kits are even worse.

But hey ho new GW something something Facebook page.

SeanDrake wrote:
I dropped into my lfgs yesterday and saw the chaos players building Havocs and stuff and for some reason a movie quote just popped into my head.

"Begun the Clone War has."

Monopose sculpts in a mass battle game is bad mmmkkk
Massively overpriced Monopse kits one tiny step above easy build kits are even worse.

But hey ho new GW something something Facebook page.

I prefer the modularity of the older kits myself, but I think describing the new CSM, Terminators, and Havocs as "one step above easy build" is unnecessary hyperbole. The only chief difference is that the torsos are moulded to the legs in most of the models. The arms, heads, and accessories are still interchangeable. GW has even explicitly stated that the Havocs kitbash readily with the CSM. We have lost customisation ability, but it is still miles away from easy to build.

Now the Shadowspear CSM are literally one step above easy to build. They are monopose, with zero options, but require glue to construct. That is just above etb. The multipart kits are still way away from that.

I love this idea that GW providing a kit that would cover the basic equipment the unit comes with is somehow them giving us stuff for "free". The mark up GW make is insane.

drbored wrote:
Problem is, theres no way GW can win. You call not having chainaxes in the terminator kit "lazy" but if you had any decent number of weapon options that would add a new sprue and a box of 5 terminators would cost 70+ bucks, which people wont pay for a unit that doesn't even do well on the table.

There's ten giant spike sets that could easily have been replaced with weapons enough that I'd actually get that kit. Normally I'm on GW's side, the havoc and marine kits are more or fine to me, quite literally what I asked for a few months back when I said I wanted to see havoc and chaos marine kits like the genestealer cult ones. This terminator kit? I'd have to buy five of them to do the load out they recommended, or I get to see how well the scale of forge world chain axes stands up to them and buy a second box so I have enough combi bolters.

If I get them, they're character fodder, then possibly a serious consideration to make a unit out of the second box, but this weapon loadout is just sad, especially compared to the other boxes. If they want to throw a 20 buck sprue out there that doubles up on nothing but termi weapons, I'd actually consider them, but as is even I'm backing away from that kit.

The fact that about half of one of the two sprues is basically fences is telling...

drbored wrote:

Problem is, theres no way GW can win. You call not having chainaxes in the terminator kit "lazy" but if you had any decent number of weapon options that would add a new sprue and a box of 5 terminators would cost 70+ bucks, which people wont pay for a unit that doesn't even do well on the table.

The 3 sprue kit would not have to cost 70 US buck unless GW actually want to beat their growth last year (which is double), and there're also that option to sell 2 sprues kit at approriate 2 sprue kit price.

But yeah, why make more, when they can make less and still sell at the same price? And people'd buy it anyway, Investors will be pleased, sculptor be happy he didn't had to waste more time designing a 3rd sprue and figure out which extra bits he had to put in to fill the blank.