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Stabilizers is a stretch though. They have metal toe nails for feths sake I don't mind them having the rule, personally i think all marines should ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, but that justification cracks me up.

 Nurglitch wrote:
I figured it was Terminators into Mutilators and Havocs into Obliterators, Raptors into Warp Talons, with CSM and Chosen into Possessed and Greater Possessed.

I really like this idea. So, instead of just Characters every single Heretic Astartes is on a path towards either Daemonhood or Spawndom.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Stabilizers is a stretch though. They have metal toe nails for feths sake I don't mind them having the rule, personally i think all marines should ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, but that justification cracks me up.

No arguments from me on that lol. never mind that the actual model has claws that are level with bottom of their boot so they wouldn't even work lol

 Sersi wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
I figured it was Terminators into Mutilators and Havocs into Obliterators, Raptors into Warp Talons, with CSM and Chosen into Possessed and Greater Possessed.

I really like this idea. So, instead of just Characters every single Heretic Astartes is on a path towards either Daemonhood or Spawndom.

That's just how it's always been with Chaos. Once you start down that path, it's either daemonhood or a terrible death. And the odds are NOT in favor of daemonhood.

 Roknar wrote:

 Darkseid wrote:
So...?

Berzerkers are S5 despite looking just as scraggy as any regular marine.

And Chaplain Cassius is T6 due to bionics; noone seems to mind.

One is a character, the other is a specialized unit. Anything goes with those.
Berzerkers had S5 for a while but it wasn't via their profile, they got it through furious charge.
At least it could make sense here in that these are all roided out due to khorne and/or focused on martial ability, aka they hit the gym more than your average marine.

Havocs are the same as any other regular marine, it would have made more sense to improve their BS. The run and shoot is explained via stabilizers at least.
obliterators are also T5 and like three times the size, so being on their way to oblits also makes no sense, apart from not making sense fluffwise either depending on which fluff you go by.
It's not armour either as out termies also only have T4. If they wanted to go that way then at least give them " wounds like the termies or vice versa.

So you admit it wasn't actually part of the Berserker Marine profile.

Also how aren't Havocs a specialized unit?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Roknar wrote:

 Darkseid wrote:
So...?

Berzerkers are S5 despite looking just as scraggy as any regular marine.

And Chaplain Cassius is T6 due to bionics; noone seems to mind.

One is a character, the other is a specialized unit. Anything goes with those.
Berzerkers had S5 for a while but it wasn't via their profile, they got it through furious charge.
At least it could make sense here in that these are all roided out due to khorne and/or focused on martial ability, aka they hit the gym more than your average marine.

Havocs are the same as any other regular marine, it would have made more sense to improve their BS. The run and shoot is explained via stabilizers at least.
obliterators are also T5 and like three times the size, so being on their way to oblits also makes no sense, apart from not making sense fluffwise either depending on which fluff you go by.
It's not armour either as out termies also only have T4. If they wanted to go that way then at least give them " wounds like the termies or vice versa.

So you admit it wasn't actually part of the Berserker Marine profile.

Also how aren't Havocs a specialized unit?

Maybe not the best words to use but they're like not any of the cult units.They're just dudes carrying big guns. They're no different than a normal csm taking an autocannon. At least not statwise.
Devastators aren't any different from regular marines either, bar some more specialized gear. These get the claws to differentiate, but there's not really any explanation that would give them extra thoughness.
Unless heavy weapons give an extra toughness like bikes do this edition. Randomly getting an extra toughness is just weird

And yea, berzerkers shouldn't have the extra strength built into the profile either, but with those there are lore reasons (not a particularly compelling one but hey) and they have an extra strength like bikers have an extra toughness.
They skipped a step and instead of making a separate rule, they rolled it into their profile. Plus they are elite veterans and thus further on their path to damnation

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
I figured it was Terminators into Mutilators and Havocs into Obliterators, Raptors into Warp Talons, with CSM and Chosen into Possessed and Greater Possessed.

I really like this idea. So, instead of just Characters every single Heretic Astartes is on a path towards either Daemonhood or Spawndom.

That's just how it's always been with Chaos. Once you start down that path, it's either daemonhood or a terrible death. And the odds are NOT in favor of daemonhood.

Given that chaos worshippers are usually all about freedom and personal power, enslaving themselves eternally to an alien intellect seems like it would count as an agonising death too. Just, you know, extended indefinitely.

Did someone else notice that the transfer sheets of the new csm kits do neither feature EC nor WE, thus stealth-confirming new kits for those legions (and maybe new codexes) some time in the near future?

Ardias wrote:
Did someone else notice that the transfer sheets of the new csm kits do neither feature EC nor WE, thus stealth-confirming new kits for those legions (and maybe new codexes) some time in the near future?

Yes and bizarrely there is decals for Thousand Sons.

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
Option for the Aspiring Champion
Havoc A can be Reaper Chaincannon, Heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc B makes heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc C makes Lascannon or missile launcher
Havoc D makes Lascannon or missile launcher.

No idea if you can fit the bits to make, say, a 2 Lascannon and 2 Missile launcher squad. I am about to have a play around so will report back.

Feared that would be the case.

in fairness most people are likely going to buy 2 packs and make 1 las canon and 1 autocanon squad.,

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
Option for the Aspiring Champion
Havoc A can be Reaper Chaincannon, Heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc B makes heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc C makes Lascannon or missile launcher
Havoc D makes Lascannon or missile launcher.

No idea if you can fit the bits to make, say, a 2 Lascannon and 2 Missile launcher squad. I am about to have a play around so will report back.

Feared that would be the case.

So long you have shoulder pads left you actually can build nearly all weapons easily but guess which is bound to a specific arm backpack and backpack addition.....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness most people are likely going to buy 2 packs and make 1 las canon and 1 autocanon squad.,

Or ask their IG playing friend for some autocannon barrels to chop and refit in the heavy bolters for the havocs.

Ardias wrote:
Did someone else notice that the transfer sheets of the new csm kits do neither feature EC nor WE, thus stealth-confirming new kits for those legions (and maybe new codexes) some time in the near future?

This isn’t remotely any kind of confirmation. If anything the exact opposite. And conversion articles on how to make plastic Berzerkers from the new Chaos Marine kit doesn’t scream “new kit on the way”.

Doesn’t look like these legions will be getting anything in the near future to me.

Sotahullu wrote:

Ardias wrote:
Did someone else notice that the transfer sheets of the new csm kits do neither feature EC nor WE, thus stealth-confirming new kits for those legions (and maybe new codexes) some time in the near future?

Yes and bizarrely there is decals for Thousand Sons.

Yes, but TS used the normal csm transfer sheets, that seems to have been discontinued, whereas DG probably had their own sheet. So that might also hint at such EC and WE Releases in the near future.

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness most people are likely going to buy 2 packs and make 1 las canon and 1 autocanon squad.,

You can assemble all weapons/arms combinations without too much trouble (I've done just that), but there's one less backpack part than you'd need to build them all, so you need to do some work for that one, or cut the cabling that goes to the backpack and use a regular one.

That said, the havoc weapons feel a smidge oversized on regular marines. Not a lot, just a smidge.

Ardias wrote:

Sotahullu wrote:

Ardias wrote:
Did someone else notice that the transfer sheets of the new csm kits do neither feature EC nor WE, thus stealth-confirming new kits for those legions (and maybe new codexes) some time in the near future?

Yes and bizarrely there is decals for Thousand Sons.

Yes, but TS used the normal csm transfer sheets, that seems to have been discontinued, whereas DG probably had their own sheet. So that might also hint at such EC and WE Releases in the near future.

Actually Death Guard has no own decal sheet. Most of their units have so much sculpted detail on them that there really isn't any place to place decals to begin with.

Roknar wrote:
Havocs are the same as any other regular marine, it would have made more sense to improve their BS. The run and shoot is explained via stabilizers at least.
obliterators are also T5 and like three times the size, so being on their way to oblits also makes no sense, apart from not making sense fluffwise either depending on which fluff you go by.
It's not armour either as out termies also only have T4. If they wanted to go that way then at least give them " wounds like the termies or vice versa.

I think increased wounds would've worled better for what GW seems to be trying to represent with the new Havocs, but modern GW has shown they are quite happy to use increased T as a way to represent superior armour already this edition- look at Gravis Marines. They have a 3+ Sv but T5 to represent the effects of the armour.

Anyway, Obliterators are much larger than Havocs, but I meant that Havoks must be accumulating boons that move them towards an Obliterator as the endpoint once they ascend to daemonhood. This suits the MO of Havocs as obsessed with guns. Once they have attracted the attention of the Dark Gods, they will either ascend through possession (like the first Obliterator) or seek out the virus or something.

Plus, the new Havocs are noticeably bigger than Marines (see below) so it becomes plausible that they are aiming for this as an endgoal. Havocs are no longer "normal" Marines, but Marines who have already acquired Chaos rewards.

Albertorius wrote:...so I must admit, I wasn't expecting havocs to be quite this big:



The 40mm bases were a surprise, too.

For comparison, here is the original Obliterator models on 40mm bases...



Look pretty similar in size...?

The original oblits look smaller, to me. They don't fill the 40mm base nearly as much as that champion.

...also, no wonder I never got any. Ew.

It still doesn't make sense. If they want veterans that are closer to some ascension of sorts to be T5, then they missed the opportunity to improve the other HQs and elites and the master of possesion.
Their armour isn't really that different either, and then termies should be T5. Why only the havocs? Even when playing the oblit card, they're still way closer to a normal marine than a an actual oblit.

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness most people are likely going to buy 2 packs and make 1 las canon and 1 autocanon squad.,

You should have seen the look on my dealers face when I walked in and ordered 6 boxes of havoks and twelve boxes of terminators.

Did his eyes look like dollar signs?

 Nurglitch wrote:
I figured it was Terminators into Mutilators and Havocs into Obliterators, Raptors into Warp Talons, with CSM and Chosen into Possessed and Greater Possessed.

I...really like this train of thought.

Given enough time in the immaterium, every Chaos Marine will eventually either warp into a twisted daemonic version/mirror of it's former self, become a Chaos Spawn or simply die.

Havoc's are more or less CSM who love heavy weapons a little bit too much, and are half-way on their path to "Obliteratordom"

 Togusa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness most people are likely going to buy 2 packs and make 1 las canon and 1 autocanon squad.,

You should have seen the look on my dealers face when I walked in and ordered 6 boxes of havoks and twelve boxes of terminators.

you realize you don't need to build the entire Black Legion right?

Huh. Didn't realize the new Havoks were that large. That's perfect for me!

Maybe I'll pick up a box now and do a Black Legion Kill Team with the Shadowspear bits I've already built and painted!

Sneaky move on GW's part to put an end to the annoying player tendency to use the same Heavy weapon minis in elites/troops/heavy units

I have enough heavy weapon marines to run "Havocs" regardless...not sure I'll bother. Personally, I really dislike the hand-wavium style of fixing them...but at the same time there was ZERO point in running them previously, so at least they have some special rules to justify them.

Still think they're just painting a bigger target on their backs...we'll see!

So here's a fun fact, I just did a size comparison with the first Havok I put together, and it looks like they're about the size of a primaris Marine.

 Eldarain wrote:
Sneaky move on GW's part to put an end to the annoying player tendency to use the same Heavy weapon minis in elites/troops/heavy units

It would be great if base converters existed to change 32mm bases to 40mm, then it would be easier to use the Havoc models in CSM squads.

I can only find ones that convert up to 32mm.

 Eldarain wrote:
Sneaky move on GW's part to put an end to the annoying player tendency to use the same Heavy weapon minis in elites/troops/heavy units

Ha! Jokes on GW.
I'll keep using my regular CSM /w Heavy Weapons as Havoc's, despite them having the wrong base.
Granted, this might not fly in a tournament but then I on average attend one tourney every 5 years so I'll probably be fine...

 Haighus wrote:
It seems like GW is going down the "on their way to becoming Obliterators" route with Havocs. That would suit the larger models and T5.

I liked it better when obliterators were less “big terminators” and more “Oh no I caught the Tetsuo virus… IN SPACE” brand of body horror.

“Oh no I'm an imperial guard/citizen but my body is turning into metal and I cannot really control it anymore! Now I'm desperate and the imperium will shoot on sight so I join chaos ” versus “I am a space marines and I like shooting weapons so much… that my power armor magically transform into a a terminator armor, just a bit bigger though”.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also how aren't Havocs a specialized unit?

They are. Just not specialized in tanking, that would be the plague marine. The Havocs are specialized in shooting big noisy smelly guns. T5 isn't related to shooting big noisy smelly guns.