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 Togusa wrote:
So, Obliterators are insanely good at 65ppm. 1 deepstriking unit of mine did 21 damage to a rhino today, then activated EK and did 20 wounds to a 5 man plasma squad that was inside it, killing them outright.

My second squad did 17 damage to my opponents suppressor squad, and Oblit squad three wiped a 10 man unit of bolters, freeing up Sgt. Tellion to be charged and killed with chainswords.

My first squad pulled off a 12 inch charge later that turn and obliterated an entire squad of Eliminators. A sorcerer with Warp Time and Presience is also so good with Oblits.

OK, so I'm firmly in the camp of 'no way 65ppm' but that aside, this example at the same time does show that 115ppm looks maybe a bit too expensive. I haven't gone and looked up the points, but if the Oblits were 345 per squad, none of them would have killed their points worth.
Just out of interest, would you have won the game even you had left 450 points' worth of other units off the table? You took out some annoying enemy units, perhaps it was enough to spoil your opponent's plans?
I ask because I have four of the new Oblits on my painting table and really love the models. So far, I've used a single one in two small games but it didn't get on well with my dice and was thus a total failure

tneva82 wrote:

Sotahullu wrote:
Okay, so why the chaos lord from BSF is getting tagged on?

Would you have preferred it have whole week for itself later?-)

I would've preffered Traitorguard instead.

They are worth 345 easily. If you use a MoP to get them to a good profile, Vets and Endless Cacophony, they one-shot a 3++ Castellan, which is probably undercosted at just over 600.

3 Oblits easily make back their points at 345 in just one shooting phase, even if you count in another 200-300 points or so of support stuff.

They are just less of a spam 9 of them and more of a use 3 and exploit synergies.

They should probably lose deepstrike and/or go up to 150+ to be even reasonably on par with other firesupport units in the game that aren’t a Castellan.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
They are worth 345 easily. If you use a MoP to get them to a good profile, Vets and Endless Cacophony, they one-shot a 3++ Castellan, which is probably undercosted at just over 600.

3 Oblits easily make back their points at 345 in just one shooting phase, even if you count in another 200-300 points or so of support stuff.

They are just less of a spam 9 of them and more of a use 3 and exploit synergies.

They should probably lose deepstrike and/or go up to 150+ to be even reasonably on par with other firesupport units in the game that aren’t a Castellan.

Oblits are worth it easily if you get a specific unmobile sorcerer there, Mark them specifically and use 2 stratagems /turn on them and just them......

Also salty much about that last Paragraf?
If an Oblit is worth 150 a dreadnoughts should be 300.

 Virules wrote:
If you think it's not a typo REMOVED - RULE #1 PLEASE Baffles the mind that anyone think it is 65 points.

Firstly, nice personal attack to anyone who disagrees with you. Secondly, who cares if it's a mistake or not? Right now we don't know it is, and to insult anyone who plays it the way its written is pretty poor form, mate.

 Virules wrote:
Also, Reece has said it's obviously 115 not 65. If anyone would know it would be him.

Reece is a great guy, and has a really weird voice, but honestly who gives a gak what he said. He's not GW.

Are y'all really gonna play a game and try to convince your opponent your oblits are 65 points

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Are y'all really gonna play a game and try to convince your opponent your oblits are 65 points

The most up to date rules state this, obviously most people agree with it beeing a typo does however not matter due to the fact that you are bound to the up to date codex.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Are y'all really gonna play a game and try to convince your opponent your oblits are 65 points

The most up to date rules state this, obviously most people agree with it beeing a typo does however not matter due to the fact that you are bound to the up to date codex.

Given that officially the new codex is technically optional since you can use the old codex+Vigilus Ablaze+Shadowspear, we aren't bound to the misprint. Maybe people should stop being TFG, hm?

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Are y'all really gonna play a game and try to convince your opponent your oblits are 65 points

The most up to date rules state this, obviously most people agree with it beeing a typo does however not matter due to the fact that you are bound to the up to date codex.

Given that officially the new codex is technically optional since you can use the old codex+Vigilus Ablaze+Shadowspear, we aren't bound to the misprint. Maybe people should stop being TFG, hm?

Absolutely, but GW is mainly to blame for it, due to them not releasing the FAQ for the older codexes yet.
Frankly this whole Codex 2.0 (nonmandatory) Shadowspear and CSM codex regular with vigilus atm is annoying as hell to deal with (also don't forget the index....)

Well faq's arrive 2 weeks after codex unless big faq changes things so should be soonish enough

edit: If 2 week thing holds early next week should be it then.

tneva82 wrote:
Well faq's arrive 2 weeks after codex unless big faq changes things so should be soonish enough

I would hope so.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Given that officially the new codex is technically optional since you can use the old codex+Vigilus Ablaze+Shadowspear, we aren't bound to the misprint. Maybe people should stop being TFG, hm?

I think you're going to have a harder time convincing an opponent that you are not bound by their Chaos Codex than you would the price of Oblits are a mistake.

Maybe this helps? I dont think id play them at the old cost anyways because it feels funny. Going by this logic though, now that the codex is out it may be the correct cost, until faq’d.

However didn't the datasheet say 1 obliterator, then add 1 or 2? With at behind codex among point values unit size saying 3. So either way there's some typo anywhere. Ah well. Good thing I don't face chaos in week or two so doesn't affect me either way before faq clarifies.

tneva82 wrote:
However didn't the datasheet say 1 obliterator, then add 1 or 2? With at below unit size saying 3. So either way there's some typo anywhere. Ah well. Good thing I don't face chaos in week or two so doesn't affect me either way before faq clarifies.

At this point it just gets annoying imo.

Not Online!!! wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
However didn't the datasheet say 1 obliterator, then add 1 or 2? With at below unit size saying 3. So either way there's some typo anywhere. Ah well. Good thing I don't face chaos in week or two so doesn't affect me either way before faq clarifies.

At this point it just gets annoying imo.

I concur. For a case like this, a quick newsflash item on the commnity website could sort it out and everyone could go back to getting their knickers in a twist over something else already.

The calamity of GW and its lack of proof reading.

Yet GW said specially old codex + Vigilus is legal and same as new codex. Let's stop white knighting GW and demand they fix their error, having 2 versions of the same rules is insane.

 Roknar wrote:

GaroRobe wrote:

Spoiler:

BrianDavion wrote:

GaroRobe wrote:
Mallax was also shown off in the new codex, albeit as a nameless chaos champion with thunder hammer.

For those that like the model, it'll be a nice way to get him without having to pay ebay scalper price. I'm just not too fond of him. He's got the "wot" grandma face, and too many flesh wires all over him. His backpack looks like it'd be a nightmare to paint.

granted if your biggest issue with him is his head that'd be easy eneugh to address yeah?

Nope. I'm all for conversions, but his head looks too difficult to easily snip away at.
And you can see from this angle what I'm talking about in reference to the wires. That backpack is 90% wires. Maybe if someone painted it in another legion color scheme, I'd like it better.

Yea I want to like him but he's basically a tentacle in armour. I'm not sure I will get him.

I've modified heads on figures like that. As long as you don't mind losing the original, it's fairly easy. Cut off the topknot (save it if you like, there obviously aren't enough topknots around 40K) and mark a small hole in the centre of the top of the head. Drill into it with a smallish bit, 1mm-2mm. Then go larger and larger till the head is quite hollow. Once the plastic is thin enough you should be able to effectively "scoop" the remains out with a hobby blade, then it's just a case of cleanup.

 Kirasu wrote:
Yet GW said specially old codex + Vigilus is legal and same as new codex. Let's stop white knighting GW and demand they fix their error, having 2 versions of the same rules is insane.

Spoiler:

Two versions of the same rules isn't insanity, it's the infancy of a great random table.

I assume people are getting annoyed because people are using the cheap oblits with the Vigilius specific rules?

Ok, I know it’s controversial, and there is a very high likelihood of the codex getting adjusted, but, from a players point of view only 1 points value is correct, and that is the latest points publication.

Shadowspear is already no longer on sale on the GW website (well listed as currently out of stock anyway and rumoured to have now finished from a store ordering pov).

If a new player goes into a store and goes, “Oh look, I’m going to start Chaos and buy some of the new models”, they are no longer going to have access to the Shadowspear mini-dexs. All they have available is the codex and the FAQ documents. As such, if someone then turns around and tells them they are wrong because of something in a book that is no longer available says something different, then how are they going to know it’s just not someone trying to “beat the noob”. And if you start aggressively arguing with technically no evidence that it’s wrong, then it’s also not going to give the new player, or any player, a good impression of you or the game and group.

TO’s at events might individually rule on this. But, until an FAQ drops and adjusts the points, all us non CSM players have just got to suck it up and be patient. No point in whining about it just because it doesn’t benefit us. (Yes, I know this is Dakka)

If it needs fixing, it’ll get fixed. They just need to do it before the 11th, as, that is the cut off point for list submissions for the Team Event at WHW this month. Failure to submit the FAQ before then will make me feel sad for including a single Gallant in my list.

Super unlikely to come before that. 2 week standard cycle puts it at next week

Just wanna put my take on the Oblit disaster:
We actually cannot apply the normal rules here that "updated" rules take precedence. Because we have a unique case here in which the "update" is optional.

The new profile and points cost in Shadow Spear for Oblits DOES take precedence, however the new Codex has been stated as OPTIONAL and has been "officially" stated as being Old Codex + Vigilus updates.

So in order to come to the LOGICAL solutions, we are going to have to use our brains until GW fixes this error.
And, using our brains, we can determine that it IS an error for 2 Reasons:
A) Oblits just got updated with 115ppm. It is unheard of for GW to change the point of an updated model within 2 weeks of releasing it, outside of an FAQ, which has yet to drop.
B) Oblits in the new Codex list the unit size as 3, not 1-3 like the Spadowspear entry. This supports that the points costs were NOT updated, since both points and unit size are on the same line.

So we have a situation in which BOTH the Shadowspear and new Codex points costs are valid. (i.e one does not update the other since the new codex is optional)
The only solution is to look at the evidence and arrive at the correct conclusion that the 65ppm cost is a typo that they just forgot to update.

If after you have seen this evidence, you still claim 65ppm is a valid cost, you're TFG and you should be required to take 3 Oblits per unit since that is what the Models per Unit says in the updated Codex.

Kdash wrote:
Ok, I know it’s controversial, and there is a very high likelihood of the codex getting adjusted, but, from a players point of view only 1 points value is correct, and that is the latest points publication.

Shadowspear is already no longer on sale on the GW website (well listed as currently out of stock anyway and rumoured to have now finished from a store ordering pov).

If a new player goes into a store and goes, “Oh look, I’m going to start Chaos and buy some of the new models”, they are no longer going to have access to the Shadowspear mini-dexs. All they have available is the codex and the FAQ documents. As such, if someone then turns around and tells them they are wrong because of something in a book that is no longer available says something different, then how are they going to know it’s just not someone trying to “beat the noob”. And if you start aggressively arguing with technically no evidence that it’s wrong, then it’s also not going to give the new player, or any player, a good impression of you or the game and group.

TO’s at events might individually rule on this. But, until an FAQ drops and adjusts the points, all us non CSM players have just got to suck it up and be patient. No point in whining about it just because it doesn’t benefit us. (Yes, I know this is Dakka)

If it needs fixing, it’ll get fixed. They just need to do it before the 11th, as, that is the cut off point for list submissions for the Team Event at WHW this month. Failure to submit the FAQ before then will make me feel sad for including a single Gallant in my list.

I totally agree that new players should be able to take stuff at face value when they buy a legally valid book. However, 40K has NEVER been able to do this outside of the few months after 8E dropped and EVERYONE was Index only with no older rules or FAQs altering anything.
40k is just way too complicated and releases far too many new rules for new players to ever be able to just pick up the latest book and be fine. Heck, many casual players might not even keep up (or care) about FAQs.

-

Well not that requirement to take 3 broken good models is exactly hindrance

I heard shadowspear is on its way to being discontinued already. Had a google and only found one guy on youtube on about it so I dont know how true it is.

Obliterators in chaos sm book 2.0 have them at a power level of 6, which is the updated version found in shadowspear. GW needs to do their job and shoot out a quick FAQ on the points typo. There is no "oh it has a long printer production cycle" BS excuse because they updated the PL!

 Dropbear Victim wrote:
I heard shadowspear is on its way to being discontinued already. Had a google and only found one guy on youtube on about it so I dont know how true it is.

Spoiler:

It is a battle box, right? I assume it will be the same as any other one.

Not even building these guys until this gets sorted out.

 Dropbear Victim wrote:
I heard shadowspear is on its way to being discontinued already. Had a google and only found one guy on youtube on about it so I dont know how true it is.

Spoiler:

This is standard issue nonsense whenever something goes "Temporarily Out of Stock Online".

If it's "being discontinued already", that means there would be no way to get any Vanguard stuff for the Marines.