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 BaconCatBug wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Can someone else clarify. Patriarch doesn't get CULT benefits because it's a Genestealer keyword?

Page 108, Cult Creeds, final line of the rule.

Yes that is what I'm referencing. I'm seeking clarity for whether that refers to the keyword (which is what I think) or the genestealer unit itself.

It is bold and allcaps. It is a keyword. There is no unit called "Genestealer" in the codex.

 SHUPPET wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, bare freaking minimum Mental Onslaught needs to get changed to unmodified LD, if not also restricted to Infantry or Character like Mind War.

This codex has a lot to FAQ. I would again encourage everyone to not get lost in the sauce of busted brood brother combos, busted Locus "Cultroic Genetervention" strats, and busted Onslaught combos before we have confirmation that any of that gak is actively sticking around.

GW tried to build something on the foundation of the guard codex, which is the rules equivalent of trying to build a 70 story high rise on grahm crackers held together with bubblegum. It didn't work out.

"Unmodified LD" sure, that power would suck ASS in that case. You're stacking 3+ auras and MULTIPLE psychic powers to have such an effect, it's the BARE MINIMUM to have the Mental Onslaught power itself DO SOMETHING with that HUGE support you're giving it

it's really not that huge at all. The only thing that isn't great in its own right is like LD warlord trait/reloc shut, and mostly only for opportunity cost, it doesn't actually cost you anything massive if you choose to go for it. Let's not over indulge ourselves here it's a pretty easy set up

Bingo.

Even at LD 10 a Patriarch will get off Onslaught and you will only beat him with a Ld 8 unit on a 4+ if he rolls a 1.

The thing with Mental Onslaught is its use in a wide variety of applications, and the fact that (outside of a failed cast/cancel) it is going to wreck whatever it goes on.

Even Unmodified LD its still way, way too powerful. I can see it being ERRATA'd to be a Max Mortal wounds (i.e. Can only deal up to 6 Mortal Wounds) or something. You already have Mind Control which is stupidly powerful as it stands, not to mention way easier to cast than the Tzeetch one that does basically the same thing, and very hard to fail with 3d6 Ld.

The Tzeentch one is also hot garbage and shouldn't be used as a barometer for anything.

You're also showing that you don't understand the ability, or how it functions. You need to beat their roll to continue going. At base LD10, against most existing units (LD8) you have a +2 to the roll. If you roll a 3, they beat you no matter what, and nothing happens.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
The Tzeentch one is also hot garbage and shouldn't be used as a barometer for anything.

You're also showing that you don't understand the ability, or how it functions. You need to beat their roll to continue going. At base LD10, against most existing units (LD8) you have a +2 to the roll. If you roll a 3, they beat you no matter what, and nothing happens.

i kind of see it being turned into something similar to slaanesh's cacophonic choir where its flat LD difference mortal wounds if the spell goes off

I don't see a FAQ doing that kind of massive overhaul. Dakka is overreacting in typical fashion

We'll see in a week, though.

I've used it 2 times ld 12 vs 8 and did 1 wound. People that think even unmodified it is to powerful have no clue how probability works. It only gets way to powerful at the high end when there is no chance/only 1 vs 6 roll that you fail.

If you want to be outraged about something, go read the assassins leaks. It puts the power of a single GSC power into perspective.

https://m.imgur.com/a/kgH6ycq

I'm building lists non stop. One way to get a brigade quick is 6 minimum Acolyte units, putting a Rocksaw in each for some punch. I can't think of any good advantages to running multiple small units (MSU) in this army though. It makes using all those tasty Brigade CPs totally inefficient, it makes the psychic buffs nearly useless and it's more difficult to keep aura buffs active.

Are there benefits to running MSU Acolyte squads?

Caspian89 wrote:
I'm building lists non stop. One way to get a brigade quick is 6 minimum Acolyte units, putting a Rocksaw in each for some punch. I can't think of any good advantages to running multiple small units (MSU) in this army though. It makes using all those tasty Brigade CPs totally inefficient, it makes the psychic buffs nearly useless and it's more difficult to keep aura buffs active.

Are there benefits to running MSU Acolyte squads?

They could be useful for additional blips in your deployment and then returning to shadows to then come in late game for OBJ grabs or tying up enemy units. 5 Acolytes are cheaper than 10 Neophytes so there is that.

Caspian89 wrote:
I'm building lists non stop. One way to get a brigade quick is 6 minimum Acolyte units, putting a Rocksaw in each for some punch. I can't think of any good advantages to running multiple small units (MSU) in this army though. It makes using all those tasty Brigade CPs totally inefficient, it makes the psychic buffs nearly useless and it's more difficult to keep aura buffs active.

Are there benefits to running MSU Acolyte squads?

I'm curious what people think is the minimum viable size of acolytes. Right now because I am depending on a lot of Brood Brothers to fill out my detachments, I am planning on squads of 13, 13, and 14 acolytes. That way too small?

Gordoape wrote:

Caspian89 wrote:
I'm building lists non stop. One way to get a brigade quick is 6 minimum Acolyte units, putting a Rocksaw in each for some punch. I can't think of any good advantages to running multiple small units (MSU) in this army though. It makes using all those tasty Brigade CPs totally inefficient, it makes the psychic buffs nearly useless and it's more difficult to keep aura buffs active.

Are there benefits to running MSU Acolyte squads?

I'm curious what people think is the minimum viable size of acolytes. Right now because I am depending on a lot of Brood Brothers to fill out my detachments, I am planning on squads of 13, 13, and 14 acolytes. That way too small?

I'm wanting to run 15+ unit squads. Aiming to take advantage of the Vigilus Broodsurge +1 wound strat as often as possible, rending on 5's! But they are squishy and I'm realizing that I'll need a Patriarch near them to mitigate moral losses. Given that I'm leaning towards a Patriarch for the fearless bubble I'm likely to just go up to two squads at 20. Mind you I have about 40 models and I would be very careful about buying more them given how expensive they are!

Gordoape wrote:

Caspian89 wrote:
I'm building lists non stop. One way to get a brigade quick is 6 minimum Acolyte units, putting a Rocksaw in each for some punch. I can't think of any good advantages to running multiple small units (MSU) in this army though. It makes using all those tasty Brigade CPs totally inefficient, it makes the psychic buffs nearly useless and it's more difficult to keep aura buffs active.

Are there benefits to running MSU Acolyte squads?

I'm curious what people think is the minimum viable size of acolytes. Right now because I am depending on a lot of Brood Brothers to fill out my detachments, I am planning on squads of 13, 13, and 14 acolytes. That way too small?

Depends on what you're going to do with them. But with specific boosts like; might from beyond, +1 to wound with broodsurge stratagem, perfect ambush and conga line within aura range I like to go for the big units. I take one big unit with flamers so that I can get them best 'layer removal' with the 'lying in wait' stratagem. 20 hand flamers can almost remove 3 astra m units. But you can also get one the broodsurge detachment and pick one big unit for the perfect ambush stratagem, in combination with more small units to make sure you get more assault attempts.

I've just gotten hold of the GSC book and I'm dusting off my hillbillies for 8th.

Where's a good place to start? I notice there are dirtbikes and dune buggies now - are these worth looking at, or is it still all about Acolytes and Metamorphs? Is Vigilus a good buy?

I'm curious what people think is the minimum viable size of acolytes

That depends on what you want them to do. 5 or 6 dudes with 2 saws in a Rockgrinder are viable to take on light vehicles or some infantry.

For the heavy lifting I take 10 guys, 4 saws and a banner. All with HFs.

I don't really see the merit in taking even bigger units. I haven't encountered a single unit that my 10 Acos didn't utterly annihilate. What do you need those 20 guys and their 8 saws for? That many Knights roaming your tables?

Bigger units also don't really become more durable. Seriously, they are guardsmen and every army out there is capable of killing 10-20 guardsmen in a single round no matter what.

To me it makes more sense to split those 20 Aco deathstars into 2x10. They will still absolutely murderise their target but now you can engage twice as many units.

 Causalis wrote:

I'm curious what people think is the minimum viable size of acolytes

That depends on what you want them to do. 5 or 6 dudes with 2 saws in a Rockgrinder are viable to take on light vehicles or some infantry.

For the heavy lifting I take 10 guys, 4 saws and a banner. All with HFs.

I don't really see the merit in taking even bigger units. I haven't encountered a single unit that my 10 Acos didn't utterly annihilate. What do you need those 20 guys and their 8 saws for? That many Knights roaming your tables?

Bigger units also don't really become more durable. Seriously, they are guardsmen and every army out there is capable of killing 10-20 guardsmen in a single round no matter what.

To me it makes more sense to split those 20 Aco deathstars into 2x10. They will still absolutely murderise their target but now you can engage twice as many units.

Because 'perfect ambush' and 'lying in wait' only works on one unit, so why not go all the way? More models also makes it easier to 'tri-pod' a unit and lock them in. 10 acolytes losing 2 models due to overwatch and trying to keep the unit within aura range could mean that only 5 models can hit in close combat. Not really that intimidating.

If I want to take down a big unit with shining spears, custodes jetbikes, a knight, 30 orks the I want that big acolyte unit..

Been wondering was the best unit sizes for Acolytes.

I feel one 20 man flamer squad is good.

But do we need we or four 20 man squads?

15 seams like a ideal number lose a few in overwatch and still have about 10 guys hit.

10 seams to small but they would double the number of unit you can hit.

5 man squad to go after objectives and a cheap way to fill out battalions.



What size units are you thinking about these guys


Oh and I been running Meta's with whips and flamers in 10 man squads. They do work as back field holds or mid board objective grabbers.

max 10 man squads for them.

The new Imperial Assassins look like a good counter to all the new GSC characters — and seem like they'll be an auto-include for most Imperial armies — how do you guys plan on dealing with them?

https://imgur.com/a/kgH6ycq

shadowfinder wrote:
I feel one 20 man flamer squad is good.

Agreed, because of the 'lying in the wait' stratagem.

shadowfinder wrote:
15 seams like a ideal number lose a few in overwatch and still have about 10 guys hit.

Yep, but look at the complete picture; which unit is going to use 'perfect ambush'? Do you want an abberant unit for this? You also cannot deploy each and every unit around the aura characters. If you do want to do this, as much as possible and still want to maintain board control then you need big units. If you want to jam an abberant unit down their throat and only use a few units without any character support dropping in at a flank then you could just as well get small units because of morale checks and multiple assault attempts.

shadowfinder wrote:
10 seams to small but they would double the number of unit you can hit.

One unit can use 'perfect ambush'. 2x10 units could mean that the other 10 cannot reach close combat.

shadowfinder wrote:
5 man squad to go after objectives and a cheap way to fill out battalions.

I rather get neophytes for that. 10 neophytes with shotguns + assault attempt could also claim that flank objective and then I got 10 wounds on the objective instead of 5. I wouldn't charge 10 astra militarum infantry models with 5 acolytes (overwatch).

shadowfinder wrote:
Oh and I been running Meta's with whips and flamers in 10 man squads. They do work as back field holds or mid board objective grabbers.

I think meta's are too expensive for simple objective holders. You need battalions for command points and for that you need troops. I would always pick one broodsurge detachment with acolytes because reroll charge is too good not to have, and then neophytes fill in the other troop choices as objective holders. Even offensive, you would be better off with abberants or genestealers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Khorzain wrote:
The new Imperial Assassins look like a good counter to all the new GSC characters — and seem like they'll be an auto-include for most Imperial armies — how do you guys plan on dealing with them?

https://imgur.com/a/kgH6ycq

Unquestioning loyalty and kellermorph?

 EnTyme wrote:
So what does everyone think of the Telepathic Summons stratagem? Spend 2 CP and give up Psychic phase on one of your psykers (probably the Magus) to summon up to 3d6 PR. I'm thinking this would be a good way to bring in a unit of free Jackals. A full unit of 12 bike and 3 quads comes out to PR 12. Thoughts?

Used it at a tournament (RTT) yesterday and it is worth its weight in gold. I only set aside 120 which is exactly enough for either 15 HF acolytes or 10 double scythe metas with an icon.

I tried both, game 1 I was facing deathwatch on a naked table and got masacred overall but it was fine, I wavne't played much 40 all winter and I wanted to test everything out so I had 10 of the characters and new I wasn't going to place well. Against the first round I summoned the 15 HF acolytes, was a mistake, with prepared positions and take cover I killed ~12 of the 30 screen. The acolytes would have soaked overwatch, but would have killed two units easily. Oh well, as I said the the table was almost entirely open, his DW vets never moved and just dumped 36 rerolling everything shots each (4 units) and couldn't be tied up, and all had SS. I think I could beat him again, but obviously I'd need a tuned list. My biggest annoyance was realizing on the ride home I shot his libby first turn with my sanctus and he failed his save, rolled a 2 in cover, so he CP'd it and got a 3 to pass. Only he shouldn't have passed since I forgot the stupid familiar provides ignore cover. Should have taken d3 damage plus the perils and he was standing next to 3 characters and 2 DW vet units. AHHHHHHHHH!

Second game I played another C4AE list. He gave me first turn and I summoned the metas, they killed two acolyte squads and due to sloppy deployment (didn't expect a turn 1 charge) I tied up a leman russ and tagged to ridge runners. I ended up creaming him because my turn 1 was so strong. Sanctus popped his Magus on turn 2 This game I gave him gift from beyond for a relic. This game demonstrated that you really want 1st turn against a rival cult, the board control and early positioning is way stronger then counter deploying with reserves.

3rd game was against a demon army of mostly slaanesh. It had a large unit of 12 fiends, two keeper, furys of nurgle, demonettes skull canons and a bloodletter bomb, nurlgings and some harp ladies. We both goofed off too much since we were having fun and couldn't place well and didn't finish the game. That said, part of the distraction was the sanctus (gift from beyond again) I deployed and shot his warlord keeper (bad choice by him) and did 6 wounds after the perils, then in the shooting phase did the exact same thing after he failed with a CP reroll killing it turn 1 and causing him to explode in the middle of his army. After the splash damage he did 23 wounds including the keep!

I learned a few things.

-4 orginal characters are still great, not much to be said. Primus is flat better for buffing abbs then grey hulk sadly.

-Anointed throng is dead. The abomanant did nothing all tournament and you don't need him to get the abbs in combat. Save the 2 CP and take a second Patriarch or broodlord in place of him. It sucks since I own 3, 2 converted, but he just isn't worth his cost.

-Deliverance BS is great, but you get in the way of yourself if you deploy from underground with too many acolyes. 32mm bases makes it tougher then you would think, especially sicne your crowding around the Icon ward, I think I placed him to far forward, it's much easier to daisy chain guys back to him so always deploy him last after you chain your units back to one point, same goes for the clamavus. I messed up and put them down first in my first two games.

-Nexos is garbage, at least in an alpha strike list. You spend so many CP pre game, then turn 1 the characters that buff his regen are not on the table. I gained 1-2 CP per game tops (I can't role 6's) I just don't like him at 50 points, however maybe in alternate lists he will change my mind. His first ability really is useless though. You have SOOOO many blips, moving 1 is meaningless.

-Kelermorph is as amazing as you'd expect, he shoots down entire squads of GEQ and murders small character Just don't be surprised when an angry opponent hunts hm down right after.

-Sanctus sniper... OMG Maybe it's just me, but I even rolled poorly first two games and he is so good. I am soo angry with myself for forgeting that the little familiar is there for a reason. I had solid odds at murdering his libby which would have meant he was 3 for 3. This guy is going to be better then the knife I think because the knife is still easily screened from such characters, and then he dies. The sniper is a terrifying threat all game and holds and objective in your backfield.

-Clamuvus (clam-man) is money, does what you'd expect. I bought a second in case.

-Jackal Alphus- another amazing model, she even makes your neophytes solid at chaf clearence from range. She also combos with the sanctus very well, if they counter move away from your snipers LOS, you just move them both, she pionts at them and you still hit on a 2 She is very fast and has a great weapon, I'd say she is one of the better HQ's we can take.

-Atalan Jackals- I used mine with demos and shotguns and a ML wolf quad. I had 2 units, they are fun to use but very swingy. Rusted claw strat would make them better, just be warned they eat your CP like crazy. 2 to drop in another 1 for the grendade strat and if Rusted Claw it would be a 4th CP, I don't think it's the best use for them, I think you are better off with either small cheap squads for zoning and camping on objectives or one large unit with knives and shotguns for a turn 1 charge.

I know this post is getting lengthy but I'll end it with some list ideas I have been brainstorming with a local friend and fellow GSC player. I think a strong list will be using turn 1 assault elements.

-Kraken Stealers
-Summoned unit*
-Disembarked unit with psychic stim*
-Broodsurge unit off a truck using strat*
-X number of purestrians/patriarchs from trucks

*Just disembark a clam man and advance turn 1 (4AE) and he gets 3" + his base + 6" +D6+2" = 13/18" from your DZ able to buff all the GSC units turn 1, unit disembarking with him well get similar distance up field but needs psychic stim to assault. Thats 4 units in your opponents face first turn. Theoretically you could also add GSC stealers and a patriarch in vehicles to just keep adding more units for turn 1 assaulting goodness.

Is anyone putting Webber's on their neophytes? It's only 1point but does the low cost make it better than the flamer?

Jamstrap wrote:
Is anyone putting Webber's on their neophytes? It's only 1point but does the low cost make it better than the flamer?

Yes all the time

Yep assassin rules are out, those were some nice characters we had once.

I don't understand everyone's fear of assassin's. Don't they take up a force org slot? Who isn't maximizing CPs with multiple Battalions? At best they take a full vanguard det for +1CP and then have to spend CPs to make the assassins viable during the game

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I don't understand everyone's fear of assassin's. Don't they take up a force org slot? Who isn't maximizing CPs with multiple Battalions? At best they take a full vanguard det for +1CP and then have to spend CPs to make the assassins viable during the game

If you're not informed about the new rules, why are you commenting? You don't need to take a Vanguard or Aux Support to take a single assassin anymore.

nagash42 wrote:
Yep assassin rules are out, those were some nice characters we had once.

I didn't see anything in their rules which stops Brood Brothers from jumping in front of the bullets. Then stab the shooty ones and shoot the stabby ones.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I don't understand everyone's fear of assassin's. Don't they take up a force org slot? Who isn't maximizing CPs with multiple Battalions? At best they take a full vanguard det for +1CP and then have to spend CPs to make the assassins viable during the game

If you're not informed about the new rules, why are you commenting? You don't need to take a Vanguard or Aux Support to take a single assassin anymore.

The rules have been out for what........like 8 hours? From blurry screenshots from a magazine?

It's really easy to miss a random post in a thread like this that links that image. Why be rude and abrupt instead of just linking the rules?

Khorzain wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/kgH6ycq

There is the link if anyone missed it.

I read the datasheets, missed the part about them not taking up a force org slot. Removed - Rule #1 please

How am I being rude? I am asking why, if you don't have the full information, are you posting authoritative statements as if they are facts.

Can we get back to the topic before this turns into an unevitable argument?

Right now the Culexus and Vindicare seem to be the most dangerous to the Cult. The Culexus provides protection against our potent psychics and the Vindicare can pick off our squisy characters.