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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 09:22:07
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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We don't know that though. There's no raw data, just a lot of freaking out at potential. Which given every other discussion seems hooked on averages is, well, telling.
Kelermorph, as I've already explained, is actually quite tricky to use. Blob it, and he's toast.
People still screaming 'entire army can DS' when actually, we can't. We're still subject to the 50% rule. And a mass deepstrike, when your infantry is a squishy as Cultists may not be the most advisable thing. Because it'll basically be turn up, shoot some stuff, get shot to death in the next turn. Only takes a couple of Tactical Objectives held by my opponent for such a whoopsie to turn the game on it's head.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 09:38:25
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Steadfast Grey Hunter
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So all those crazy rumors are true and even more?
Lol, GW will nerf this fraction multiple times like they nerf IG.
This codecs looks like it was made by fanboy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 10:01:42
Subject: Bork? GSC
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:We don't know that though. There's no raw data, just a lot of freaking out at potential. Which given every other discussion seems hooked on averages is, well, telling.
Kelermorph, as I've already explained, is actually quite tricky to use. Blob it, and he's toast.
People still screaming 'entire army can DS' when actually, we can't. We're still subject to the 50% rule. And a mass deepstrike, when your infantry is a squishy as Cultists may not be the most advisable thing. Because it'll basically be turn up, shoot some stuff, get shot to death in the next turn. Only takes a couple of Tactical Objectives held by my opponent for such a whoopsie to turn the game on it's head.
"JUST SCREEN MATE"
No, sorry, use one pistol to shoot the screen, kill some of the screen, get free rerolls of 1's and use the remaining pistols on the main target, Oh and just willy nilly provide a 1 rerolling aura.
And that is just kellerschmerple alone.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 10:08:05
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:We don't know that though. There's no raw data, just a lot of freaking out at potential. Which given every other discussion seems hooked on averages is, well, telling.
Kelermorph, as I've already explained, is actually quite tricky to use. Blob it, and he's toast.
People still screaming 'entire army can DS' when actually, we can't. We're still subject to the 50% rule. And a mass deepstrike, when your infantry is a squishy as Cultists may not be the most advisable thing. Because it'll basically be turn up, shoot some stuff, get shot to death in the next turn. Only takes a couple of Tactical Objectives held by my opponent for such a whoopsie to turn the game on it's head.
Let it go Mad doc, I praise your efforts, but many posts here are obviously written by dudes who'd rather whine and complain than learn the ropes of 8th edition 40k. They will not really consider the points you make (which are good BTW), as they prefer to talk about power levels and GW making broken stuff and pretend they know what they are talking about.
I suspect many of the people posting here about broken stuff don't even play 40k that often.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/05 10:15:23
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 10:41:32
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Oh look, another "git gud" poster.
We knew conscripts were bonkers the day we first saw the index.
We knew guard codex was top tier the moment it dropped.
We knew DE are going to be disgustingly good, and the agents of vect being too good.
Side things are so freakishly over the curve you can tell the moment you lay eyes on them.
The keler is like that.
The abdominat is like that.
The hand flamers are like that.
So many relics and stratagems are like that, including a replay of agents of vect.
It does not take more than basic reading and minor mathing to tell that the GSC is top tier even before you optimize and start souping.
The fact is, even on the casual level, GSC will bury most armies.
And then we enter the fluff murder aspect that the cult is somehow using junk repair and repurposed mining tools who are one to one superior to what the best of the imperium or chaos has to offer, and deploy them in mass.
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 10:44:48
Subject: Re:Bork? GSC
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Barpharanges
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'Boycott'
This has literally no chances of happening what-so-ever. No one is seriously going to boycott a 40k rulebook because of flimsy inductive evidence that the list is strong. The number of times people have called for boycotts on things that might actually matter (Finecast, Forge World, etc.) nothing actually happened (in the Forge World case, it was less that people refused to buy, it was more that they were never going to buy at those prices in the first place).
The only thing this will produce is a lot of new posts for my cringe compilation.
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The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 11:21:34
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Terrifying Doombull
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OP: this is worth dismissing out of hand, You didn't even bother to come up with argument. You just stated that your random assertion is inexplicably true, and therefor 'boycott'. Even people who have no interest in this army shoulder snicker up there sleeves at you.
This kind of behavior is bad for the community, but thankfully just the theoretical dakka community, the game will shoulder on just fine.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/05 11:45:04
Efficiency is the highest virtue. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 11:39:05
Subject: Bork? GSC
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Voss wrote:OP: this is worth dismissing out of hand, You didn't even bother to come up with argument. You just stated that your random assertion is inexplicably true, and therefor 'boycott'. Even people who have no interest in this army shoulder snicker up there sleeves at you.
This kind of behavior is bad for the community, but thankfully just the theoretical da kka community, the game will shoulder on just fine.
This.
Granted stuff like the Herple-derple-Kelerschmerple will be annoying and strong as feth but a boycott is the last ditch.
I am suggesting waiting and drinking Tea albeit with scrutiny torwards the Kelermorph the handflamers.
Aswell as vect 2.0
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/05 11:40:02
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 11:43:44
Subject: Re:Bork? GSC
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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blood reaper wrote:'Boycott'
This has literally no chances of happening what-so-ever. No one is seriously going to boycott a 40k rulebook because of flimsy inductive evidence that the list is strong. The number of times people have called for boycotts on things that might actually matter (Finecast, Forge World, etc.) nothing actually happened (in the Forge World case, it was less that people refused to buy, it was more that they were never going to buy at those prices in the first place).
The only thing this will produce is a lot of new posts for my cringe compilation.
You're absolutely right, and I'll wager the OP knows it. They've called for a boycott for attention, and the best way to deal with that is to not engage with it.
There's a valuable discussion to be had about power in 40k, and it will have a lot more substance when the book is out and we've had chance to play some games.
I don't want to engage with someone who opens with such a ridiculous and attention seeking premise though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 12:47:53
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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Not Online!!! wrote:Voss wrote:OP: this is worth dismissing out of hand, You didn't even bother to come up with argument. You just stated that your random assertion is inexplicably true, and therefor 'boycott'. Even people who have no interest in this army shoulder snicker up there sleeves at you.
This kind of behavior is bad for the community, but thankfully just the theoretical da kka community, the game will shoulder on just fine.
This.
Granted stuff like the Herple-derple-Kelerschmerple will be annoying and strong as feth but a boycott is the last ditch.
I am suggesting waiting and drinking Tea albeit with scrutiny torwards the Kelermorph the handflamers.
Aswell as vect 2.0
I am very interested to see what is in the 2-week faq for this army. Given that every other army ( IIRC) had their hand flamers set to d3 shots, and that we are dealing with GW, I would not be surprised if the typo in the hand flamers from the index actually carried over to the codex ( GSC hand flamers and nobody elses hand flamers were D6 in the index). If we got that, Vect made identical to the DE version, you'd be basically looking at codex kellermorph and aberrants.
Again, the end result would probably be the same: Competitive Nid Soup now on par with other competitive soups, and you have a more diverse competitive scene, marines and primaris marines still underpowered, Tau getting a bump and imperial soup a little weaker, but I feel like a lot of the people running around like chickens with their heads cut off on the forum right now might calm down.
I'm probably going to write them that for the 2-week FAQ. 1 point D3 hand flamers almost sounds like a hand flamer that's about worth its points.
Though I do find it a little bit funny that everybody is losing their minds because GSC can spend 2cp to make 20 8-point guys do slightly less damage than 4 FRFSRF infantry squads. 3.5 hits per 8 point model vs 2 hits per 4 point model.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:02:45
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Man, I feel like we get one of these posts every time a codex comes out.
Stay awful, Dakka. Stick to the kitchen table, you'll never have to worry about the "big bad mean new codex" that way, anyway.
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Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.
I have a problem.
Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:04:44
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Moustache-twirling Princeps
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the_scotsman wrote:I am very interested to see what is in the 2-week faq for this army. Given that every other army ( IIRC) had their hand flamers set to d3 shots, and that we are dealing with GW, I would not be surprised if the typo in the hand flamers from the index actually carried over to the codex ( GSC hand flamers and nobody elses hand flamers were D6 in the index). If we got that, Vect made identical to the DE version, you'd be basically looking at codex kellermorph and aberrants.
CA18 made everyone's hand flamers D6.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:11:36
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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beast_gts wrote:the_scotsman wrote:I am very interested to see what is in the 2-week faq for this army. Given that every other army ( IIRC) had their hand flamers set to d3 shots, and that we are dealing with GW, I would not be surprised if the typo in the hand flamers from the index actually carried over to the codex ( GSC hand flamers and nobody elses hand flamers were D6 in the index). If we got that, Vect made identical to the DE version, you'd be basically looking at codex kellermorph and aberrants.
CA18 made everyone's hand flamers D6.
Oh. Well in that case, muuuh?  Maybe the chaff clearing capabilities of the hand flamer bomb was based around the idea that the chaff clearing abilities of similar things (fire warriors with triple-tap, deathwatch with storm bolters, IG with FRFSRF) was acceptable. The gun itself does seem at least a point or two undercosted, though at 6" range it is a lot more trivial to avoid the overwatch than it is with a regular flamer (you don't give up nearly as much reliability on the charge)
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:11:54
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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beast_gts wrote:the_scotsman wrote:I am very interested to see what is in the 2-week faq for this army. Given that every other army ( IIRC) had their hand flamers set to d3 shots, and that we are dealing with GW, I would not be surprised if the typo in the hand flamers from the index actually carried over to the codex ( GSC hand flamers and nobody elses hand flamers were D6 in the index). If we got that, Vect made identical to the DE version, you'd be basically looking at codex kellermorph and aberrants.
CA18 made everyone's hand flamers D6.
Indeed. I suspect that's legit.
I won't be entirely shocked if the points cost for hand flamers is nerfed fairly quickly though. Which leads me to a tricky decision about building a bunch of acolytes with hand flamers as I started last night. If they get increased to two points, fair enough, or even three really. But suddenly Acolytes will become a lot worse period if we get them increased by five or more points, and they've no shooting punch otherwise with the new Cult Ambush rules. I'm just a bit nervous they'll be wrecked and I'll have wasted that time for nothing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:16:58
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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Not Online!!! wrote: Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:We don't know that though. There's no raw data, just a lot of freaking out at potential. Which given every other discussion seems hooked on averages is, well, telling.
Kelermorph, as I've already explained, is actually quite tricky to use. Blob it, and he's toast.
People still screaming 'entire army can DS' when actually, we can't. We're still subject to the 50% rule. And a mass deepstrike, when your infantry is a squishy as Cultists may not be the most advisable thing. Because it'll basically be turn up, shoot some stuff, get shot to death in the next turn. Only takes a couple of Tactical Objectives held by my opponent for such a whoopsie to turn the game on it's head.
"JUST SCREEN MATE"
No, sorry, use one pistol to shoot the screen, kill some of the screen, get free rerolls of 1's and use the remaining pistols on the main target, Oh and just willy nilly provide a 1 rerolling aura.
And that is just kellerschmerple alone.
That....that doesn't work.
Yes, the Kelermorph can split his fire. But what he can't do is shoot one pistol, let another squad clear the chaff, then have at the enemy character? See, this is why I'm concerned those adamant that the Sky is Falling haven't actually looked into stuff? I mean, seriously, I'm pretty much a NooB here, and am still at the stage of having to check and read each rule as it comes up. Yet I seem to have a better handle than those claiming doom and gloom.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:17:36
Subject: Bork? GSC
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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the_scotsman wrote:beast_gts wrote:the_scotsman wrote:I am very interested to see what is in the 2-week faq for this army. Given that every other army ( IIRC) had their hand flamers set to d3 shots, and that we are dealing with GW, I would not be surprised if the typo in the hand flamers from the index actually carried over to the codex ( GSC hand flamers and nobody elses hand flamers were D6 in the index). If we got that, Vect made identical to the DE version, you'd be basically looking at codex kellermorph and aberrants.
CA18 made everyone's hand flamers D6.
Oh. Well in that case, muuuh?  Maybe the chaff clearing capabilities of the hand flamer bomb was based around the idea that the chaff clearing abilities of similar things (fire warriors with triple-tap, deathwatch with storm bolters, IG with FRFSRF) was acceptable. The gun itself does seem at least a point or two undercosted, though at 6" range it is a lot more trivial to avoid the overwatch than it is with a regular flamer (you don't give up nearly as much reliability on the charge)
They porbably seem equal, especially in the case of FRFSRF, but missing is a thing with lasguns, whilest it is not for flamers.
I don't know. But it is also true that flamers until now of any variety sucked hard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Not Online!!! wrote: Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:We don't know that though. There's no raw data, just a lot of freaking out at potential. Which given every other discussion seems hooked on averages is, well, telling.
Kelermorph, as I've already explained, is actually quite tricky to use. Blob it, and he's toast.
People still screaming 'entire army can DS' when actually, we can't. We're still subject to the 50% rule. And a mass deepstrike, when your infantry is a squishy as Cultists may not be the most advisable thing. Because it'll basically be turn up, shoot some stuff, get shot to death in the next turn. Only takes a couple of Tactical Objectives held by my opponent for such a whoopsie to turn the game on it's head.
"JUST SCREEN MATE"
No, sorry, use one pistol to shoot the screen, kill some of the screen, get free rerolls of 1's and use the remaining pistols on the main target, Oh and just willy nilly provide a 1 rerolling aura.
And that is just kellerschmerple alone.
That....that doesn't work.
Yes, the Kelermorph can split his fire. But what he can't do is shoot one pistol, let another squad clear the chaff, then have at the enemy character? See, this is why I'm concerned those adamant that the Sky is Falling haven't actually looked into stuff? I mean, seriously, I'm pretty much a NooB here, and am still at the stage of having to check and read each rule as it comes up. Yet I seem to have a better handle than those claiming doom and gloom.
Actually you just fastroll then which you don't need too, read part 3 of the BRB.
So yes he has on 2/3rds of his shots full rerolls if there is chaff around, and no he does not need to fire against more chaff, he can fire at another chaff squad or a charachter, not to mention that the pistol 3 relic will be really funny with shots that basically can't miss.
Thank you verymuch.
Also again "JUST SCREEN MATE" has become such a huge meme with charachters like kelermorph and slamguines that it is kinda funny, kinda. Or would be if all armies would get something comparable, which they don't.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/05 13:22:36
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:20:50
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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The Phazer wrote:beast_gts wrote:the_scotsman wrote:I am very interested to see what is in the 2-week faq for this army. Given that every other army ( IIRC) had their hand flamers set to d3 shots, and that we are dealing with GW, I would not be surprised if the typo in the hand flamers from the index actually carried over to the codex ( GSC hand flamers and nobody elses hand flamers were D6 in the index). If we got that, Vect made identical to the DE version, you'd be basically looking at codex kellermorph and aberrants.
CA18 made everyone's hand flamers D6.
Indeed. I suspect that's legit.
I won't be entirely shocked if the points cost for hand flamers is nerfed fairly quickly though. Which leads me to a tricky decision about building a bunch of acolytes with hand flamers as I started last night. If they get increased to two points, fair enough, or even three really. But suddenly Acolytes will become a lot worse period if we get them increased by five or more points, and they've no shooting punch otherwise with the new Cult Ambush rules. I'm just a bit nervous they'll be wrecked and I'll have wasted that time for nothing.
Yeah, I pretty much advise anyone against building their army entirely towards one currently competitive combo. Long term, you'll end up happier if you just build a variety of squads that have a cohesive role to play and trust that as balance fluctuates you'll end up with a decent army no matter what. Whether somebody asks "should I build an army with 10 drop pods" or "should I build an army with 10 Basilisks" then my army is pretty much the same give or take a year of getting to play your competitive army. If you're at all attached to what you're collecting, shoot for the middle of the road competitiveness wise, and take the extra effort to find somewhere you can play where that's allowable and where people aren't just ebaying their stuff/mass proxying every 6 months to chase the dragon. Your hobby will be healtier for you.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:21:46
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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What are you talking about? Seriously. What?
What does fastroll have to do with anything? When splitting fire, you need to declare your targets before any rolls to hit. You can't shoot Weapon A, see how it does, then top up with Weapon B and C as needed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:24:03
Subject: Bork? GSC
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:What are you talking about? Seriously. What?
What does fastroll have to do with anything? When splitting fire, you need to declare your targets before any rolls to hit. You can't shoot Weapon A, see how it does, then top up with Weapon B and C as needed.
I am talking about the fact that screening isn't particlary usefull since you will grant little kelermorph here 2/3rd of his gaks reroll 1's against your main priority target.
That is what i take issue with on top of his over the top doubling of rof just because lulz.
Scenario:
10 guardsmen and a commander, the commander is the main target, you drop the kelermorph, first shoot at the guardsmen squad with 1 gun and kill a guardsmen, bam now you shoot the other pistols at the commander. You now have full rerolls and guaranteed that atleast against the priority target the ROF doubles thanks to the kelers special rule.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/05 13:25:48
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:25:08
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Martial Arts Fiday
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I'm still confused as to why GW putting out a new codex that can compete with the grotesque combos people have had years to perfect is a bad thing? Shouldn't a new codex be top tier, at least when it initially drops? Or are no other factions supposed to upset your narrow idea of how the game should be played?
That kind of Rock,Paper,Scissors idiocy was why I left this game.
Quit bitching, read my sig, get better.
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"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
-Nobody Ever
Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
warboss wrote:
GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up. 
Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.
EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.
Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:27:03
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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But...but you can't? The Kelermorph has three weapons. If you want to split your fire, you need to declare each target in turn, before rolling to hit.
And if you target the same unit with all three, all three pistol attacks resolve at the same time - so he can never benefit from his own Aura Buff.
If he can target the enemy character, just get it done. If not, you can't shoot up the screen, have others clear it, then tackle the character. Not in the same turn.
So I'm really struggling to see your counter point here?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:29:05
Subject: Bork? GSC
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:But...but you can't? The Kelermorph has three weapons. If you want to split your fire, you need to declare each target in turn, before rolling to hit.
And if you target the same unit with all three, all three pistol attacks resolve at the same time - so he can never benefit from his own Aura Buff.
If he can target the enemy character, just get it done. If not, you can't shoot up the screen, have others clear it, then tackle the character. Not in the same turn.
So I'm really struggling to see your counter point here?
To quote from the shooting phase BRB:
.....]" resolve all shooting attacks against one target, before you choose the next target......."[
So yes he can if he splits his fire, profit from his own aura.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/05 13:29:47
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:30:10
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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Right, your example has clarified things somewhat.
The issue here is that if my opponent has left room for my Kelermorph to be within pistol range of his character - that's not the Kelemorph being overpowered, but poor positioning by my opponent. And indeed at that point, I would not need to clear the screen for the Kelermorph to do his job. I'd just shoot up the character as many times as I can, put them 6 feet under, and consider it Job's a Good'un, whether or not there was also room for me to provide the Kelermorph with his own target blocking bodyguard.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/05 13:31:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:32:12
Subject: Bork? GSC
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Right, your example has clarified things somewhat.
The issue here is that if my opponent has left room for my Kelermorph to be within pistol range of his character - that's not the Kelemorph being overpowered, but poor positioning by my opponent. And indeed at that point, I would not need to clear the screen for the Kelermorph to do his job.
A guard commander f.e. needs to be within 6 " range to give orders.
Same with most aura charachters. I mean sure you can pad against little kellermorph here, but don't expect to profit overall for these units anymore, and that is why i can and will dismiss your screening argument.
And we have not even started about aura's that state that the supposed to buff units need to be wholly within.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/05 13:33:34
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:35:51
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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I can't deploy within 9".
My pistols are 12" range.
Which means your character has to be within 3" of your screening troops for me to be able to target him.
If you're doing that - it's not the Kelermorph not it's rules at fault. I mean, that's like trying to blame the manufacturer because you shoved your hand in their toaster and turned it on. Both are examples of your own flawed thinking. Automatically Appended Next Post: As for your rules example? Rules for Quicksilver Reflexes suggest that's not the case.
Note the word immediately. And when it triggers. Not when I've wounded. When I've hit. So rather than granting a separate attack step, it's effectively increasing the number of shots that weapon makes during that particular attack.
And when looked at next to Heroic Acts rule
That is only triggered when he's killed something. The bonus attacks are triggered before I roll to wound, and before you roll to save. Therefore, he can never benefit from his own buff.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/05 13:38:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:40:55
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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I get that the Keller CAN shoot a screen with one gun and then a character with two and benefit from his own aura...but why would he want to again?
He gets 7.7 hits on average with his two guns rerolling hits.
He gets 9.0 hits with all three guns not rerolling hits.
This little tactic seems like a great way to get less mileage out of keller, while...feeling cool I guess? Ur so smurt for figuring it out, have a gold star! For example, if you pulled that vs marines, it'd be a great way to make sure your average damage dealt is not the health of most marine characters.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:42:30
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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I'm guessing we cross posted - but as demonstrated above, the trigger order for his extra shots and buff preclude him from ever benefitting from his own buff.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:43:52
Subject: Bork? GSC
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I can't deploy within 9".
My pistols are 12" range.
Which means your character has to be within 3" of your screening troops for me to be able to target him.
If you're doing that - it's not the Kelermorph not it's rules at fault. I mean, that's like trying to blame the manufacturer because you shoved your hand in their toaster and turned it on. Both are examples of your own flawed thinking.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for your rules example? Rules for Quicksilver Reflexes suggest that's not the case.
Note the word immediately. And when it triggers. Not when I've wounded. When I've hit. So rather than granting a separate attack step, it's effectively increasing the number of shots that weapon makes during that particular attack.
And when looked at next to Heroic Acts rule
That is only triggered when he's killed something. The bonus attacks are triggered before I roll to wound, and before you roll to save. Therefore, he can never benefit from his own buff.
Stratagem exists.
Read the whole text of the BRB for shooting attacks again.
Resolve all attacks against one target first.
ERGO SHOOT; WOUND, SAVE and the kill.
Then you have a kill, read heroic deeds kicks in.
Then you resolve the shooting against the next target, except that he allready has bagged a kill now and profits from rerolls.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:44:52
Subject: Bork? GSC
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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And yes, Grotsnik, all this Keller discussion does rely on the fact that the gsc player has
-at least 8cp lying around to guarantee his 60pt character makes his points back
-nothing else he wants to use the agents of vect stratagem, perfect ambush stratagem, or get within 3" stratagem on than this little 60pt character assassin. No handflamer acolytes, no guaranteed aberrant charges, nothing going on that turn with the two most important stratagems in the entire codex except guaranteeing keller his target.
I'm glad this armchair is so comfy, it's real great to general from.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/05 13:45:50
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 13:47:08
Subject: Bork? GSC
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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the_scotsman wrote:And yes, Grotsnik, all this Keller discussion does rely on the fact that the gsc player has
-at least 8cp lying around to guarantee his 60pt character makes his points back
-nothing else he wants to use the agents of vect stratagem, perfect ambush stratagem, or get within 3" stratagem on than this little 60pt character assassin. No handflamer acolytes, no guaranteed aberrant charges, nothing going on that turn with the two most important stratagems in the entire codex except guaranteeing keller his target.
Why wouldn't you have atleast 8 cp lying around?
You surely would field a battalion and you gain 3 for beeing battleforged.
Also you don't need to instantly do this, instead you can play mindgames with your opponent, which now has a choice force you wasting CP with his own stratagems that he needs, or to sacrifice a key charachter that he needs. Either way you have a significant advantage now.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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