Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott)

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**SHUPPET**

Daedalus81 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:

They get one powerful trick on turn 2, and another one turn 3. The double shoot stratagem shares its usage with the 3D6 charge. After that anything still left in reserves autopops.

How long do games typically last? 3 to 4 turns? Maybe 5? You can start Rusted Claw flamerbomb acolytes on the table and it literally doesn't matter, because they will be fearless with a 4+/6+++ vs most things and only 8 points. Meanwhile other units are dropping in their face.

Cool so if they only get to do this stuff once, on 2 or their 5 turns, lets stop pretending that this is just the baseline stats for all these units.

**Daedalus81**

the_scotsman wrote:

If I Respond To a poster Saying you double shoot If you want to kill Abbadon It is not Cherrypicking an edge case.

My bad - I wasn't following the full set of posts.

**SHUPPET**

Daedalus81 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:

20 Demos (yes, there is a 1CP strat to toss them all)

BZZZZZZZZT

Up to 10 models from that unit.

No more than 5 if throwing Demo charges.

Why bother reading a codex or even ever playing against it, when you can just clamor for nerfs instead?

Yep, fair - I missed that part. It's a pretty small gotcha, because I didn't expect it to be used in such a manner.

Then what was even the point of bringing it up?

**Daedalus81**

SHUPPET wrote:

Then what was even the point of bringing it up?

*shrug* It was something I saw as a potential issue - I've been used to Orks throwing all their TBBs. I don't generally expect units to max out on specials.

**Asmodios**

Just checking in on this glorious thread this morning. I want to thank you guys as the "nuke guard" threads were getting quite dull and gotta say calling for a nuke on a dex that hasn't been played yet is generating just the type of salt thats going to keep me occupied until the LVO coverage this weekend.

Deadalus81 isnt the hero we deserve but the hero we needed to keep us occupied on this content free week

**the_scotsman**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Arson Fire wrote:
Alright, so it's 46.67 dead guardsmen from the gaunts, vs 23.33 dead guardsmen from the flamers. Still twice as effective.
I'm still not seeing how they break the game.

Looks like 240 points for the gaunts, + 69 points for a ravener taxi.
160 points for 20 acolytes. So that about adds up.

Right, so the overall thing is having spent twice the points to overkill. Most armies will not offer you that many models and so it's dead weight in a lot of matchups.

When you can achieve the desired effect with no support required and only 8% of the points from your list it's a considerable win.
So, what if you took half the devilgaunts? Isn't that the same? Not really, no, because you're spent your hive fleet on Jormun. That offers you the same durability as these acolytes and can be negated. Meanwhile Rusted Claw will make these guys 4+ against most things that want to hurt them.

Now, we can sit here and say that Rubric marines and Plague Marines will stop it dead cold and you're not wrong, but how many lists are taking large numbers of those to the point where it matters?
But get this - I covered my cheap chaff killing unit with 160 points. Let's make another unit. 20 Acolytes with 5 heavy rock saws - 190 points. And we'll make them Twisted Helix for S5.

10 WS3 S10 AP4 D2 attacks with NO minus to hit. But, wait, there is more. A primus pops up with them. He gives them +1 to hit and reroll wounds of 1. 10 * .833 * .998 = 8 D2 wounds that get through from JUST the rock saws. And there's **still** 30 more rending and 20 S4 AP0 attacks coming. Your durability, save, and FNP mean absolutely nothing to this unit and it made it's points back in one go.

Forgive me if I've mixed up some stuff, but this below is roughly 1400 points, which means ~550 to spend on aberrants and whatever else you want. It has buckets of CP. 3 WL traits (paid for by the +D3 CP trait). 3 Relics.

Depending on your opponent some units will ambush and some will be underground. Everything is pretty much fearless. Bump the CP generating acolytes to larger squads of neophytes if you need more cover for your characters.

Rusted Claw
[55] Iconward - gives 6+++
[87] Primus, Familiar (Crouchling - cast second and +1)
[160] 20 Acolytes, 20x Hand Flamer
[200] 20 Acolytes, 10x Hand Flamer, 10x Demo
[35] 5 Acolytes
[60] Kellermorph, Opressors Bane relic

Twisted Helix (or Four Armed Emporer)
[125] Patriarch, +1 A/T/W relic
[55] Iconward - reroll 1s to the 4+++ Aberrants
[190] 20 Acolytes, 5x Heavy Rock Saw
[35] 5 Acolytes
[35] 5 Acolytes
[55] Clamavus
[60] Kellermorph

Four Armed Emporer - gives Vect
[80] Magus, +D3 CP
[125] Patriarch, Preternatural Speed, No Overwatch and +1 to saves relic
[35] 5 Acolytes
[35] 5 Acolytes
[35] 5 Acolytes

So, this list has 18CP (20Cp with the warlord trait)

It spend 5CP off the bat on broodcoven and 3 relics, effectively starting with 15, yeah?

doing the rough math to try and figure out 1/2 of the power level, you're probably starting all the 5-squads of acolytes, the patriarchs, Iconwards, Clamavus, and Magus on the board in order to DS the big aco blobs, the primus (whose ability triggers on DS) and Kellers. You appear to have forgotten to put Aberrants in the list, because you put a relic buffing character on there.

Here's my biggest problem with this list off the bat: what happens if I don't get first turn?

I have thirty guard bodies standing in front of like 1000pts of characters, with a 6++. 30 GEQ is...not a big deal for most lists to get rid of ASAP.

Then, turn 2 when I blow my load, only one of those rusted claw acolytes is coming in (I do not think you can have 10 demo charges, I thought the max was 8?) because both need to use the same stratagem. Hope nobody's screening against keller, because he doesn't get to use the 2CP come in within 3" strat at all this battle. I probably want to spend 3Cp to get my 20 helix acolytes in, too.

Next turn, finally, the rest of my infantry comes in, and needs to spend CPs to do stuff again.

I am not afraid of a list that is 80 guard bodies+squishy ass characters, needs to spend 12 of its 20cp just to function, and doesn't get everything onto the table until turn 3. Even with my less competitive MEQ-style armies, I am not particularly afraid of that list. The scariest thing about it is it is a GEQ body anti-infantry skew, so if my opponent took a lot of antitank stuff they'll be sad about it.

**Carnikang**

Just wait until the Codex is out, do what a normal person would do, and give it a read when in hand. Play a few games using these combos or against currently strong lists.

Then, like a reasonable person, give feedback. To GW. They have an email for just that. You can share what you've found then, and you'll have an actual position of experience to talk from.

Because honestly, I've played GSC since the start of 8th, and my sparse few wins we're with board control, and getting a really consistent 1st (when it was possible) or 2nd turn charge wave. If that failed? Wiped off the board by superior firepower, because there is no staying power in a Cult army, barring hiding and locking yourself in combat.
This Codex doesn't look like it's going to change how the army functions, or how fragile everything in the army is. It made some neat changes, but fundamentally, it is the same army with a new mechanic, as well as some new dials and knobs.

**Daedalus81**

Asmodios wrote:
Just checking in on this glorious thread this morning. I want to thank you guys as the "nuke guard" threads were getting quite dull and gotta say calling for a nuke on a dex that hasn't been played yet is generating just the type of salt thats going to keep me occupied until the LVO coverage this weekend.

Deadalus81 isnt the hero we deserve but the hero we needed to keep us occupied on this content free week

I am glad to be of service. I like a difficult debate.

So, how about this?

20 Twisted Helix acolytes with 8x rock saws is 220 points. Need that Primus, too, so 300ish. Pretty much guaranteed to get into melee at a time of their choosing if screens can be busted.

16 * .833 * .777 * 2 = 21 damage to a Castellan in melee (or 14 with Sanctuary)
24 * .833 * .195 = 4 (these are all rends)

300 points and a handful of CP in a CP rich army that can murder screens.

**Insectum7**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Asmodios wrote:
Just checking in on this glorious thread this morning. I want to thank you guys as the "nuke guard" threads were getting quite dull and gotta say calling for a nuke on a dex that hasn't been played yet is generating just the type of salt thats going to keep me occupied until the LVO coverage this weekend.

Deadalus81 isnt the hero we deserve but the hero we needed to keep us occupied on this content free week

I am glad to be of service. I like a difficult debate.

So, how about this?

20 Twisted Helix acolytes with 8x rock saws is 220 points. Need that Primus, too, so 300ish. Pretty much guaranteed to get into melee at a time of their choosing if screens can be busted.

16 * .833 * .777 * 2 = 21 damage to a Castellan in melee (or 14 with Sanctuary)
24 * .833 * .195 = 4 (these are all rends)

300 points and a handful of CP in a CP rich army that can murder screens.

A StormRaven that they can't attack costs about the same. Dakkadakkadakkadakka

**the_scotsman**

Honestly, and I don't say this without really considering it, I would probably take a competently built Grey Knight force against that list with a pretty high level of confidence. Mostly because they can itemize much better against mobs of infantry that come to me than against vehicles, but like..you should probably make sure your boogeyman list is scary against the worst army in the game...

**Daedalus81**

the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly, and I don't say this without really considering it, I would probably take a competently built Grey Knight force against that list with a pretty high level of confidence. Mostly because they can itemize much better against mobs of infantry that come to me than against vehicles, but like..you should probably make sure your boogeyman list is scary against the worst army in the game...

Well, see? Now everything is on it's head.

The problem isn't so much that they might struggle vs lots and lots of bolter spam, but whether or not that bolter spam can survive in the meta and gets taken.

**the_scotsman**

Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly, and I don't say this without really considering it, I would probably take a competently built Grey Knight force against that list with a pretty high level of confidence. Mostly because they can itemize much better against mobs of infantry that come to me than against vehicles, but like..you should probably make sure your boogeyman list is scary against the worst army in the game...

Well, see? Now everything is on it's head.

The problem isn't so much that they might struggle vs lots and lots of bolter spam, but whether or not that bolter spam can survive in the meta and gets taken.

Except that almost anything in the meta would gak on this list, so I assumed we were talking about this as a potential "oppressive pub stomper" of weak armies or something. The more casual a list gets, the more I find it tends to have lots of short-ranged anti infantry.

How does this fight plaguebearer/DG spam? Eldar soup? DW Storm Bolt boys? Tau gunline Fire Warrior spam with 5+ overwatch?

**The_Real_Chris**

My 2nd edition black pamphlet Genestealer Cult army was amazing. I hope this can measure up...

**PuppetSoul**

Formosa wrote:
Having watched the very long video about GSC, my biggest take away isn't that they will be OP, it's that they will shake up the meta in tournaments, to what extent remains to be seen, but I like that a new codex drops and the meta changes, this isn't something that has happened to every codex, grey knights were a drop in the pond, dark angels too, more variety is always a good thing.

The important takeaway here is that GSC doesn't just effect GSC. It's entirely possible to take a patrol of GSC that gives access to Vect with a Tyranids primary.

And Tyranids aren't in a bad place right now, as someone just won CANCON with a 150 gaunt brick. Now imagine that brick with Vect and the ability to drop up to five impenetrable 9" denial bubbles: which deny Upon Wings of Fire and other end-of-movement phase turn1 charge enablers, as well as lower tier strategies like Sisters' Repressors or Deathwatch Corvus suicide-bombing (can't move flyers over them, because they're not units so flyers don't ignore them), if your opponent goes first.

**Marmatag**

Why would i bring a patrol? I can bring a battalion for near loyal32 prices. It's 5CP. Of course i'll be doing this with my Tyranids, because why not?

Although Cult are so strong they may outweigh my Tyranids in terms of overall points, so i might not qualify as a Tyranids list anymore.

The question is really, are the GSC genestealers better than the Tyranids Kraken Genestealers. This will essentially determine my faction in 2019.

And hell yes, a 3CP Vect will be amazing. Do they still have the stratagem to force a vehicle to explode? That's also a good one i'm excited to have in my pocket.

**mokoshkana**

Marmatag wrote:
And hell yes, a 3CP Vect will be amazing.

I fully expect one of two things to happen to this:
1) It gets FAQ'd to 4 CP
2) Agents of Vect returns to 3 CP

**DeathKorp_Rider**

If GSC is too powerful then GW will nerf them with an FAQ.

**Daedalus81**

the_scotsman wrote:

Except that almost anything in the meta would gak on this list, so I assumed we were talking about this as a potential "oppressive pub stomper" of weak armies or something. The more casual a list gets, the more I find it tends to have lots of short-ranged anti infantry.

How does this fight plaguebearer/DG spam? Eldar soup? DW Storm Bolt boys? Tau gunline Fire Warrior spam with 5+ overwatch?

- Overwatch is deny overwatch from patriarch

- Flamers care little about power armor. The more condensed the units - as in DW SS/SB - the better.

- Eldar is no different than anything else, really. -1 to hit is laughed off. Haywire is useless. Heavy rock saws wound grotesuqes on 2s and the D2 fits perfectly with their 4 wounds if they don't get FNP off - just the rock saw attacks can off two talos. KM deals with bikes pretty well. The only problem would be razorwings, and I suppose that's the point of this army - close combat and on the ground. I'm sure some clever soup can solve that problem though.

- I don't see DG posing a problem. Maybe a lot of cheap FNP models like PBs could be difficult.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

mokoshkana wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
And hell yes, a 3CP Vect will be amazing.
I fully expect one of two things to happen to this:
1) It gets FAQ'd to 4 CP
2) Agents of Vect returns to 3 CP

I don't think so. Vect is unrestricted and this one requires Four Armed Emperor.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insectum7 wrote:

A StormRaven that they can't attack costs about the same. Dakkadakkadakkadakka

If those were in the meta i'd find room for a flyrant or two.

**mokoshkana**

Daedalus81 wrote:
mokoshkana wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
And hell yes, a 3CP Vect will be amazing.
I fully expect one of two things to happen to this:
1) It gets FAQ'd to 4 CP
2) Agents of Vect returns to 3 CP

I don't think so. Vect is unrestricted and this one requires Four Armed Emperor.

I don't think Vect is unrestricted, or at the very least is intended to be unrestricted. This stratagem is a mirror, and it would make more sense for GW to make the CP match, even if that means FAQing Agents of Vect to specifically state it can only be employed by that Kabal.

**Daedalus81**

mokoshkana wrote:
I don't think Vect is unrestricted, or at the very least is intended to be unrestricted. This stratagem is a mirror, and it would make more sense for GW to make the CP match, even if that means FAQing Agents of Vect to specifically state it can only be employed by that Kabal.

No - you're right - it is Black Heart only. I've been cheated. Oh well.

*shrug* time will tell, I guess.

**drbored**

Yeah I'm not about to buy 4 boxes of Acolytes and give them all hand flamers just for a gimmicky chaff-clearing blob. That's a lot of shots that they get, which can even threaten tanks and such, but... eh, it just doesn't seem like it's going to really win me any games.

The list I'm considering is more traditional. Rockgrinders with Rockolytes trundling up the table supported by some objective-capping Neophytes in Goliath Trucks. Then you've got the Jackal Alphus supporting some Achilles to get those juicy weapons hitting better (3's if they stand still, 4's if they move with the Jackal) and then a big pop-up-and-charge of Aberrants and support characters. Using a combination of underground strikes and blip markers I should be able to get into some good positions without risking a ton in case my opponent gets first turn. Will probably give them Rusted Claw to give my force a better armor save against the types of weapons that would best clear them out and also to give some biker units better shooting.

**Daedalus81**

drbored wrote:
Yeah I'm not about to buy 4 boxes of Acolytes and give them all hand flamers just for a gimmicky chaff-clearing blob. That's a lot of shots that they get, which can even threaten tanks and such, but... eh, it just doesn't seem like it's going to really win me any games.

I can't even fathom the dollar cost of the armies I proposed. I think mentally I was doing fine with this book until I saw the heavy rock saw and the primus (and the spells, relics, traits, and cults).

**An Actual Englishman**

Gotta love those desperate defenders.

I don't remember an 8 page call to arms about any other codex release, including the Orks one that was considered strong.

Regardless of the tricks and mad combos, can someone explain why their units are flat better (more durable, more damaging and often less expensive) than those of other armies?

Compare Burna boyz to Hand Flamer Acolytes.
Compare Acolytes to Boys.
Compare Aberrants to Nobs.
Compare the GSC buggy to any of the Ork buggies.
Compare warbikers to GSC bikes.

Please do explain, anyone, how this makes any sense? These comparisons aren't even close.

This is in an army that also has literally the best stratagem in the game. Vect is fething broken, it is way, way too powerful to be given to only a few factions. I said this when it was previewed for DE and look at that they're the best mono faction army. Surprise surprise. It's literally mechanic breaking and game winning. Such a stupid, stupid move by GW.

Imbalance on this scale isn't good for the game. It isn't fun and it isn't conductive to maintaining a growing community. GW have already fethed around with Imperial Guard, particularly Catachans who still dominate. They have yet to balance Castellans. Dark Eldar are proving they have some imbalanced combinations and GW have made no effort to bring them in line. Ynarri anyone? The most broken thing in 8th ed 40k's existence with a win rate to prove it? People are losing confidence in GW and threads like this, by a poster who is level headed for the most part, are your proof.

E - and are we forgetting that Index GSC were top tier? They have only gotten better.

**the_scotsman**

Marmatag wrote:
Why would i bring a patrol? I can bring a battalion for near loyal32 prices. It's 5CP. Of course i'll be doing this with my Tyranids, because why not?

Although Cult are so strong they may outweigh my Tyranids in terms of overall points, so i might not qualify as a Tyranids list anymore.

The question is really, are the GSC genestealers better than the Tyranids Kraken Genestealers. This will essentially determine my faction in 2019.

And hell yes, a 3CP Vect will be amazing. Do they still have the stratagem to force a vehicle to explode? That's also a good one i'm excited to have in my pocket.

"near loyal 32 prices" here means "for about 20 points fewer than a min battalion of marines" yes?

IIRC a min battalion of GSC works out to 53+76+(35x3) = 234.

Min marines are like 255?

54 points more than the loyal 32...

**Daedalus81**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Gotta love those desperate defenders.

I don't remember an 8 page call to arms about any other codex release, including the Orks one that was considered strong.

Regardless of the tricks and mad combos, can someone explain why their units are flat better (more durable, more damaging and often less expensive) than those of other armies?

Compare Burna boyz to Hand Flamer Acolytes.
Compare Acolytes to Boys.
Compare Aberrants to Nobs.
Compare the GSC buggy to any of the Ork buggies.
Compare warbikers to GSC bikes.

Please do explain, anyone, how this makes any sense? These comparisons aren't even close.

This is in an army that also has literally the best stratagem in the game. Vect is fething broken, it is way, way too powerful to be given to only a few factions. I said this when it was previewed for DE and look at that they're the best mono faction army. Surprise surprise. It's literally mechanic breaking and game winning. Such a stupid, stupid move by GW.

Imbalance on this scale isn't good for the game. It isn't fun and it isn't conductive to maintaining a growing community. GW have already fethed around with Imperial Guard, particularly Catachans who still dominate. They have yet to balance Castellans. Dark Eldar are proving they have some imbalanced combinations and GW have made no effort to bring them in line. Ynarri anyone? The most broken thing in 8th ed 40k's existence with a win rate to prove it? People are losing confidence in GW and threads like this, by a poster who is level headed for the most part, are your proof.

I wouldn't call them desperate. They do make good points and I do think games need to be played. I'm still just not sure it's going to pan out very well.

GSC bikes are pretty meh.

Ridge Runners are BS4 T5 W8 4+ for 50. 2 Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Mining Laser, Flare Launcher (6+++). Heavy Mining Laser is D3 lascannon shots for 25 points.
Take the Scrapjet, which is similar in role. BS5 T6 W9 4+ and 2D3 +1 rokkit shots with DDD and really solid melee for 90 points. No move penalties.

The Scrapjet is absolutely a good value by comparison.

I'll address the rest in a moment.

**the_scotsman**

Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

Except that almost anything in the meta would gak on this list, so I assumed we were talking about this as a potential "oppressive pub stomper" of weak armies or something. The more casual a list gets, the more I find it tends to have lots of short-ranged anti infantry.

How does this fight plaguebearer/DG spam? Eldar soup? DW Storm Bolt boys? Tau gunline Fire Warrior spam with 5+ overwatch?

- Overwatch is deny overwatch from patriarch

- Flamers care little about power armor. The more condensed the units - as in DW SS/SB - the better.

- Eldar is no different than anything else, really. -1 to hit is laughed off. Haywire is useless. Heavy rock saws wound grotesuqes on 2s and the D2 fits perfectly with their 4 wounds if they don't get FNP off - just the rock saw attacks can off two talos. KM deals with bikes pretty well. The only problem would be razorwings, and I suppose that's the point of this army - close combat and on the ground. I'm sure some clever soup can solve that problem though.

- I don't see DG posing a problem. Maybe a lot of cheap FNP models like PBs could be difficult.

1) Your list does not allow for a patriarch to Deep Strike, for one thing. You have to obey the 50% restriction, and you have a lot of PL in those must-DS 20 man blobs. If you think you can manage to turn off the overwatch of an entire Tau army by charging a single MODEL at them that ignores overwatch, you are some kind of 5D-chess mastermind, because most of the Tau competitive lists I've seen have A LOT of VERY SMALL units of fire warriors to maximise the "For the Greater Good"

2) Hand flamers definitely care about power armor, being S3 AP-. Deathwatch are also going to be in imperial soup lists, either behind a guard screen (that's what your hand flamers are there to clear, remember?) or deep striking themselves. You can hem and haw about maybe keller being able to use the 2cp stratagem to get in range with the 3" restriction and the 12" range guns, if your opponent lets you get past a screen with a SIX INCH RANGE GUN then you are not playing an opponent, you are moving the pieces around yourself and going "pew pew, look how op they are, oooooh noooo I need to make another dakka thread!!!" I would advise you to find a real opponent or at least switch over to playing chess in a park over dentures.

3) Grotesques have T5 or T6 with a haemonculus aura, so the rock saws wound them on 3s. 5 rock saws (which unless they change it in the codex is one more than you actually can get in 20) is 10 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding a talos on 3s, saving on 4++, and FNP'ing on 6 for...let's see... 3.7 damage. Yep. Really just wiping the floor with that Talos, aren't you - couple more squads of 20 and you might be on your way to removing that 90 point model!

**Daedalus81**

Boyz vs Acolytes

We'll call the T4 v T3 and 6+ v 5+ a wash. I dare say the T4 is better, because they paid for that and not a removable armor save.

Acolytes get 3 attacks. Boyz get 3 and usually 4. This edge is for Acolytes, because of rending. They both have easy access to +1 to hit.

I actually think Acolytes are close to proper cost IF they didn't have the wargear rules that they do. It falls apart with unit sizes of 20 that get 2 per 5 special and full access to hand flamers.

Nobz vs Aberrants

Yea...might be a little nuts. I can't really defend this. The level that these can be amped to is crazy.

Burna Boyz

...I got nothin'.

**An Actual Englishman**

Daedalus81 wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Gotta love those desperate defenders.

I don't remember an 8 page call to arms about any other codex release, including the Orks one that was considered strong.

Regardless of the tricks and mad combos, can someone explain why their units are flat better (more durable, more damaging and often less expensive) than those of other armies?

Compare Burna boyz to Hand Flamer Acolytes.
Compare Acolytes to Boys.
Compare Aberrants to Nobs.
Compare the GSC buggy to any of the Ork buggies.
Compare warbikers to GSC bikes.

Please do explain, anyone, how this makes any sense? These comparisons aren't even close.

This is in an army that also has literally the best stratagem in the game. Vect is fething broken, it is way, way too powerful to be given to only a few factions. I said this when it was previewed for DE and look at that they're the best mono faction army. Surprise surprise. It's literally mechanic breaking and game winning. Such a stupid, stupid move by GW.

Imbalance on this scale isn't good for the game. It isn't fun and it isn't conductive to maintaining a growing community. GW have already fethed around with Imperial Guard, particularly Catachans who still dominate. They have yet to balance Castellans. Dark Eldar are proving they have some imbalanced combinations and GW have made no effort to bring them in line. Ynarri anyone? The most broken thing in 8th ed 40k's existence with a win rate to prove it? People are losing confidence in GW and threads like this, by a poster who is level headed for the most part, are your proof.

I wouldn't call them desperate. They do make good points and I do think games need to be played. I'm still just not sure it's going to pan out very well.

GSC bikes are pretty meh.

Ridge Runners are BS4 T5 W8 4+ for 50. 2 Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Mining Laser, Flare Launcher (6+++). Heavy Mining Laser is D3 lascannon shots for 25 points.
Take the Scrapjet, which is similar in role. BS5 T6 W9 4+ and 2D3 +1 rokkit shots with DDD and really solid melee for 90 points. No move penalties.

The Scrapjet is absolutely a good value by comparison.

I'll address the rest in a moment.

The scrapjet is 110 pts, the Ridge runners 84 (with the laser and stubbers so not sure where you're getting the laser cost from). If you put that 'solid melee' into action you forgo your shooting. On a shooting platform that is a bad idea. The 6+++ Flare Launcher gives the RR effectively 9.5W and Strength 5 and 6 is the rarest ranged weaponry in the game (so the T is a wash).

The 'GSC bikes are meh' is not the in depth tactical analysis I was expecting. Compare the units. Its pretty clear which is superior.

E -

Daedalus81 wrote:
Boyz vs Acolytes

We'll call the T4 v T3 and 6+ v 5+ a wash. I dare say the T4 is better, because they paid for that and not a removable armor save.

Acolytes get 3 attacks. Boyz get 3 and usually 4. This edge is for Acolytes, because of rending. They both have easy access to +1 to hit.

I actually think Acolytes are close to proper cost IF they didn't have the wargear rules that they do. It falls apart with unit sizes of 20 that get 2 per 5 special and full access to hand flamers.

Nobz vs Aberrants

Yea...might be a little nuts. I can't really defend this. The level that these can be amped to is crazy.

Burna Boyz

...I got nothin'.

Agreed and this is my problem. I can't see a reason or rhyme for GWs balance decisions here. These units are comparable but some are flat better (Boyz v Acolytes closest, agreed) then others by a huge margin. I can't explain what they were thinking.

To be fair this isn't aimed at you Dae, its an open question really.

**Daedalus81**

the_scotsman wrote:

1) Your list does not allow for a patriarch to Deep Strike, for one thing. You have to obey the 50% restriction, and you have a lot of PL in those must-DS 20 man blobs. If you think you can manage to turn off the overwatch of an entire Tau army by charging a single MODEL at them that ignores overwatch, you are some kind of 5D-chess mastermind, because most of the Tau competitive lists I've seen have A LOT of VERY SMALL units of fire warriors to maximise the "For the Greater Good"

That's the beauty of ambush and the cheap cost of the units. I put the unit in DS that is most advantageous. The rest can run 10 to 12" inches on average. Last I knew it's pretty easy to charge multiple units with a 40mm base.

2) Hand flamers definitely care about power armor, being S3 AP-. Deathwatch are also going to be in imperial soup lists, either behind a guard screen (that's what your hand flamers are there to clear, remember?) or deep striking themselves. You can hem and haw about maybe keller being able to use the 2cp stratagem to get in range with the 3" restriction and the 12" range guns, if your opponent lets you get past a screen with a SIX INCH RANGE GUN then you are not playing an opponent, you are moving the pieces around yourself and going "pew pew, look how op they are, oooooh noooo I need to make another dakka thread!!!" I would advise you to find a real opponent or at least switch over to playing chess in a park over dentures.

So spicy. I'd be interested to see this list and how it does against everything else.

3) Grotesques have T5 or T6 with a haemonculus aura, so the rock saws wound them on 3s. 5 rock saws (which unless they change it in the codex is one more than you actually can get in 20) is 10 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding a talos on 3s, saving on 4++, and FNP'ing on 6 for...let's see... 3.7 damage. Yep. Really just wiping the floor with that Talos, aren't you - couple more squads of 20 and you might be on your way to removing that 90 point model!

2 per 5 for 8 total. 16 * .833 * .777 * .5 * 2 * .833 = 8.6 wounds

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An Actual Englishman wrote:

The scrapjet is 110 pts, the Ridge runners 84 (with the laser and stubbers so not sure where you're getting the laser cost from). If you put that 'solid melee' into action you forgo your shooting. On a shooting platform that is a bad idea. The 6+++ Flare Launcher gives the RR effectively 9.5W and Strength 5 and 6 is the rarest ranged weaponry in the game (so the T is a wash).

The 'GSC bikes are meh' is not the in depth tactical analysis I was expecting. Compare the units. Its pretty clear which is superior.

110 with two twin big shootas, which are not bad. Ignoring all small weapons it's 75 vs 90 points and the scrapjet does a better job at it. Melee is just a bonus that helps finish off something you just shot if you get the chance. You're not paying exorbitant prices for it.

Bikes were covered in the other thread. The have limited uses save for some interesting stratagems.

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An Actual Englishman wrote:

Agreed and this is my problem. I can't see a reason or rhyme for GWs balance decisions here. These units are comparable but some are flat better (Boyz v Acolytes closest, agreed) than others. By a huge margin. I can't explained what they were thinking.

To be fair this isn't aimed at you Dae, its an open question really.

They wrote rules to fit the kit that comes with a 1 rock saw, 1 demo, and a bunch of hand flamers.

It's the points that I can't justify. Why would they get a chainfist with no minus to hit for cheaper? Why would the hand flamer be 1 point when they just pushed the sororitas out at 3?

**An Actual Englishman**

The difference in the scrapjet (or any other Ork buggy) and the GSC buggy is that I have no choice but to take those small arms. So the comparison has to include them in the cost. You're also missing the Rokkit Launch a that we must pay for (12pts). So its either 75vs 102 or 84 vs 110. Not favourable. You aren't going to finish the kind of targets your scrapjet should be shooting with its melee profile unless you really luck out on MW rolls.

Twin Big Shootas and their single variants are generally considered a waste of points FYI.