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addnid wrote:


Let it go Mad doc, I praise your efforts, but many posts here are obviously written by dudes who'd rather whine and complain than learn the ropes of 8th edition 40k. They will not really consider the points you make (which are good BTW), as they prefer to talk about power levels and GW making broken stuff and pretend they know what they are talking about.
I suspect many of the people posting here about broken stuff don't even play 40k that often.

I guess you wouldn't mind sharing your credentials since you seem eager to wave your manhood around?

You know nothing about me nor have I seen you post here, ever, so I can't imagine you have any idea about the positions I hold or the logic I employ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
OP: this is worth dismissing out of hand, You didn't even bother to come up with argument. You just stated that your random assertion is inexplicably true, and therefor 'boycott'. Even people who have no interest in this army shoulder snicker up there sleeves at you.

This kind of behavior is bad for the community, but thankfully just the theoretical dakka community, the game will shoulder on just fine.

Yes, while it was a silly way to approach the issue it was a conversation I think needed having.

I did not make any full assertions, because there is so much to this book that getting bogged down in mathhammer would take days.

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
And yes, Grotsnik, all this Keller discussion does rely on the fact that the gsc player has

-at least 8cp lying around to guarantee his 60pt character makes his points back

-nothing else he wants to use the agents of vect stratagem, perfect ambush stratagem, or get within 3" stratagem on than this little 60pt character assassin. No handflamer acolytes, no guaranteed aberrant charges, nothing going on that turn with the two most important stratagems in the entire codex except guaranteeing keller his target.

Why wouldn't you have atleast 8 cp lying around?

You surely would field a battalion and you gain 3 for beeing battleforged.

Also you don't need to instantly do this, instead you can play mindgames with your opponent, which now has a choice force you wasting CP with his own stratagems that he needs, or to sacrifice a key charachter that he needs. Either way you have a significant advantage now.

You do need to use Lying In Wait immediately when you set him up to get within 3", and A Perfect Ambush is not a shoot twice stratagem, it's a "shoot in your movement phase" stratagem, so you do need to declare your using your second shot before your first shot goes off. Then, when you use 3CP to Vect any kind of stratagem your opponent might have to protect the character (Grot Shields, Auspex Scan, scryerskull, forewarned, etc) they have a 5/6 chance of getting those CP's back, so no, your opponent does not need to waste CP to defend against Keller if you block it. And if he does waste CP to defend against keller...you've just spent almost twice as much on him falling flat on his face, because you spend your 5 BEFORE he declares his defensive stratagems.

I'm not sure where the mindgames come in. Forcing your opponent to screen his character before keller comes in? I'm assuming you're bringing this up as a counter to "keller must use the 2 most important stratagems in his codex to make it non-trivial to screen against him" so the idea here is you threaten keller turn 2, but actually bring in the userful units and spend the CPs on those, then keller comes in turn 3, right? If my character gets three turns on the board unmolested, I'll probably consider his job done pretty well.

And if my opponent is playing GSC and he has a Kellermorph, 160 points of handflamer acolytes, 200 points of aberrants and an abominant sitting in deep strike waiting to come down, I am positioning that character RIGHT where Helen Keller can get him if he uses those two strats. That character is going to be mooning the fething Kellermorph. "COME ON OPPONENT, PLAY MINDGAMES WITH ME, KILL THIS GUY WITH KELLER TURN 2 PLEASE"

 Stux wrote:


You're absolutely right, and I'll wager the OP knows it. They've called for a boycott for attention, and the best way to deal with that is to not engage with it.

There's a valuable discussion to be had about power in 40k, and it will have a lot more substance when the book is out and we've had chance to play some games.

I don't want to engage with someone who opens with such a ridiculous and attention seeking premise though.

That's fair - and you're not wrong. I apologize for opening it this way. I should have taken a more reasonable tact.

Not Online!!! wrote:



Stratagem exists.

Read the whole text of the BRB for shooting attacks again.
Resolve all attacks against one target first.
ERGO SHOOT; WOUND, SAVE and the kill.
Then you have a kill, read heroic deeds kicks in.

Then you resolve the shooting against the next target, except that he allready has bagged a kill now and profits from rerolls.

Again. Go back and read the Kelermorph's rule. Being in a Codex, they supersede the Rulebook, and stand as an exception. If he hits, he can immediately make another roll to hit with the same weapon against the same target.

And as he doesn't trigger his other ability until he's jobbed something, there is no way he can ever benefit from his own buff.

Having watched the very long video about GSC, my biggest take away isn't that they will be OP, it's that they will shake up the meta in tournaments, to what extent remains to be seen, but I like that a new codex drops and the meta changes, this isn't something that has happened to every codex, grey knights were a drop in the pond, dark angels too, more variety is always a good thing.

and A Perfect Ambush

Where do you need that.
He does not need more bullets, well except you want to kill a abigail style charachter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:



Stratagem exists.

Read the whole text of the BRB for shooting attacks again.
Resolve all attacks against one target first.
ERGO SHOOT; WOUND, SAVE and the kill.
Then you have a kill, read heroic deeds kicks in.

Then you resolve the shooting against the next target, except that he allready has bagged a kill now and profits from rerolls.

Again. Go back and read the Kelermorph's rule. Being in a Codex, they supersede the Rulebook, and stand as an exception. If he hits, he can immediately make another roll to hit with the same weapon against the same target.

And as he doesn't trigger his other ability until he's jobbed something, there is no way he can ever benefit from his own buff.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/770479.page

You chose one pistol, against a chaff squad.

2 pistols against a charachter.

You resolve the chaff squad first, since you decide.

You shoot, hit 2 times, hit another time with the first pistol, you resolve the three hits, wound 2 times against a guardsmen, average a killed guardsmen f.e. ---------> killed a guy, heroic deeds kicks in.

Then you go to the charachter target. -----> have 4 shots, hit 3 times because you are unlucky, reroll the 1 make another hit. 4 hits, that generate4 further hits.

This is what happens.

the_scotsman wrote:
And yes, Grotsnik, all this Keller discussion does rely on the fact that the gsc player has

-at least 8cp lying around to guarantee his 60pt character makes his points back

-nothing else he wants to use the agents of vect stratagem, perfect ambush stratagem, or get within 3" stratagem on than this little 60pt character assassin. No handflamer acolytes, no guaranteed aberrant charges, nothing going on that turn with the two most important stratagems in the entire codex except guaranteeing keller his target.

I'm glad this armchair is so comfy, it's real great to general from.

Keller is definitely not the lead in. He shows up turns 2 & 3 when he doesn't have to CP in by 3".

The whole split fire aura thing is irrelevant.

Not Online!!! wrote:

and A Perfect Ambush

Where do you need that.
He does not need more bullets, well except you want to kill a abigail style charachter.

Pretty much any time it is pointed out that Keller does not have the firepower to kill a character in terminator armor, or a marine character with cover, it is brought up that he will be fighting twice due to A Perfect Ambush. That assumption probably makes up ~10 pages of the 26 page crying about kelermorph thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
And yes, Grotsnik, all this Keller discussion does rely on the fact that the gsc player has

-at least 8cp lying around to guarantee his 60pt character makes his points back

-nothing else he wants to use the agents of vect stratagem, perfect ambush stratagem, or get within 3" stratagem on than this little 60pt character assassin. No handflamer acolytes, no guaranteed aberrant charges, nothing going on that turn with the two most important stratagems in the entire codex except guaranteeing keller his target.

I'm glad this armchair is so comfy, it's real great to general from.

Keller is definitely not the lead in. He shows up turns 2 & 3 when he doesn't have to CP in by 3".

The whole split fire aura thing is irrelevant.

You mean turn 3. Just turn 3. because the important stuff, probably 1/4 of your army, that HAS to use those stratagems, is coming in turn 2, and you're not clearing out chaff very much until then with deep strike heavy GSC. And if he waits til turn 4, your opponent gets to have a little chuckle at you.

I guess I just don't find a character assassin that waits until turn 3 to kill my character particularly frightening in the current competitive 40k meta. Games basically decided by then usually.

Not Online!!! wrote:

You chose one pistol, against a chaff squad.

2 pistols against a charachter.

You resolve the chaff squad first, since you decide.

You shoot, hit 2 times, hit another time with the first pistol, you resolve the three hits, wound 2 times against a guardsmen, average a killed guardsmen f.e. ---------> killed a guy, heroic deeds kicks in.

Then you go to the charachter target. -----> have 4 shots, hit 3 times because you are unlucky, reroll the 1 make another hit. 4 hits, that generate4 further hits.

This is what happens.

There is literally no reason at all I would ever split fire in that way. If the character is in range, he's getting all 12 barrels, right in the face. Because I want him ded. A ded as Disco. If not dedder. Sacrificing up to 4 shots to potentially re-roll 1's to hit, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. At all.

Also FYI Kellermorph shooting twice even assuming he's got double shots with rerolling hits the whole time (because I'm too lazy to do the slightly worse actual math) and abbadon is not in cover doesn't even half health him.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

You chose one pistol, against a chaff squad.

2 pistols against a charachter.

You resolve the chaff squad first, since you decide.

You shoot, hit 2 times, hit another time with the first pistol, you resolve the three hits, wound 2 times against a guardsmen, average a killed guardsmen f.e. ---------> killed a guy, heroic deeds kicks in.

Then you go to the charachter target. -----> have 4 shots, hit 3 times because you are unlucky, reroll the 1 make another hit. 4 hits, that generate4 further hits.

This is what happens.

There is literally no reason at all I would ever split fire in that way. If the character is in range, he's getting all 12 barrels, right in the face. Because I want him ded. A ded as Disco. If not dedder. Sacrificing up to 4 shots to potentially re-roll 1's to hit, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. At all.

Does it now?
Normally you would miss 2 times, now you miss one time. It is also more thought with the use of the relic pistol.
Which btw Geoff stated in his review.

Dakka: "GW is always handing out kneejerk nerfs! We're the reasonable ones here!"

Also Dakka: This thread

 SHUPPET wrote:
Dakka: "GW is always handing out kneejerk nerfs! We're the reasonable ones here!"

Also Dakka: This thread

No, no, this thread is the absolute definition of unironic Dakka, and I love it. Don't point out irony, they might stop.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Dakka: "GW is always handing out kneejerk nerfs! We're the reasonable ones here!"

Also Dakka: This thread

Shuppet it is UNACCEPTABLE that GW put out a new army that can do such insane things as assassinate a character and spend CP to put out 80% of the firepower of FRFSRF lasguns.

Also, this codex has access to GUARD UNITS with no orders, no catachan doctrine, no sgt harker, no relics, no warlord traits, and half CP they HAVE to be super OP!

I also love these Schrodinger's Cultists. Where GSC are charging you with Abominants out of deepstrike and automaking that Abominant charge too, double shooting a Kelermorph and machine gunning down all your helpless HQ's that you have no options against because screens are so 2018, and also bringing in handflamers Acolytes too, that not only handflamer a unit half to death but also make the charge immediately after cause I guess we were taking casualties from the back?




They get one powerful trick on turn 2, and another one turn 3. The double shoot stratagem shares its usage with the 3D6 charge. After that anything still left in reserves autopops.

So much theorycrafting and people vehemently swearing that they know what GT winners who have been playing the dex for month admit they themselves cannot possibly know at this point. Let's see how well this stuff holds up at the highest level before clamouring for nerfs and boycotts please lolol.





People are freaking out about all the wrong GSC stuff anyway imo. The Nexos is stupid good. So is C4E strat. Makes it hard to justify not taking a GSC ally for Nids. The Billermorph or spamming Burny clawbois? Bleh. Not even gonna buy the models. But we'll see where that stuff goes, so let's stop crucifying people who would like to do the rational thing and playtest your assumptions and calls of doom and gloom before agreeing them.

beast_gts wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I am very interested to see what is in the 2-week faq for this army. Given that every other army (IIRC) had their hand flamers set to d3 shots, and that we are dealing with GW, I would not be surprised if the typo in the hand flamers from the index actually carried over to the codex (GSC hand flamers and nobody elses hand flamers were D6 in the index). If we got that, Vect made identical to the DE version, you'd be basically looking at codex kellermorph and aberrants.

CA18 made everyone's hand flamers D6.

where does it state that as I'm not seeing that change. Deathwatch certainly don't have a D6 hand flamer, it's still D3 I believe

 SHUPPET wrote:
I also love these Schrodinger's Cultists. Where GSC are charging you with Abominants out of deepstrike and automaking that Abominant charge too, double shooting a Kelermorph and machine gunning down all your helpless HQ's that you have no options against because screens are so 2018, and also bringing in handflamers Acolytes too, that not only handflamer a unit half to death but also make the charge immediately after cause I guess we were taking casualties from the back?




They get one powerful trick on turn 2, and another one turn 3. The double shoot stratagem shares its usage with the 3D6 charge. After that anything still left in reserves autopops.

So much theorycrafting and people vehemently swearing that they know what GT winners who have been playing the dex for month admit they themselves cannot possibly know at this point. Let's see how well this stuff holds up at the highest level before clamouring for nerfs and boycotts please lolol.





People are freaking out about all the wrong GSC stuff anyway imo. The Nexos is stupid good. So is C4E strat. Makes it hard to justify not taking a GSC ally for Nids. The Billermorph or spamming Burny clawbois? Bleh. Not even gonna buy the models. But we'll see where that stuff goes, so let's stop crucifying people who would like to do the rational thing and playtest your assumptions and calls of doom and gloom before agreeing them.

What I find really interesting is that while this thread keeps mentioning Abominants, just about all the GSC players on the GSC subreddit and Facebook group are lamenting that the Abominant got a cost hike, believe it's way too fragile for a > 100pt unit, and are trying to replace him in their lists. It'll be interesting to see who ends up being right.

Since this is now going into the tactics side of things and I have had a chance to digest it....

There are some daemon lists that counter this army well. Nurgle is going to love hugging this army, I don't really see a disadvantage if the GSC army wants to get closer to me faster, means I don't need to slog across the table.

I'd say guard is still a decent option as long as you are playing something other then the morter spam heavy lists. (Take some dang tanks.)

Heavy armor lists are really going to struggle here unless they take autohit weapons to counter the charges. I may need to start running more flamethrower immolators in my sisters lists :-D

Haha this thread has become a meme on Facebook 40k groups.

My favorite thing this morning is Geoff telling the masses about the "Acolyte Flamer Bomb", and then checking DakkaDakka to find a massive 8+ Page post whining about how "Broken" GSC is, and honestly I think I'm going to look into how I can become some kind of salt-fueled Lich because there's enough there to let me live forever.

Arson Fire wrote:
Alright, so it's 46.67 dead guardsmen from the gaunts, vs 23.33 dead guardsmen from the flamers. Still twice as effective.
I'm still not seeing how they break the game.

Looks like 240 points for the gaunts, + 69 points for a ravener taxi.
160 points for 20 acolytes. So that about adds up.

Right, so the overall thing is having spent twice the points to overkill. Most armies will not offer you that many models and so it's dead weight in a lot of matchups.

When you can achieve the desired effect with no support required and only 8% of the points from your list it's a considerable win.
So, what if you took half the devilgaunts? Isn't that the same? Not really, no, because you're spent your hive fleet on Jormun. That offers you the same durability as these acolytes and can be negated. Meanwhile Rusted Claw will make these guys 4+ against most things that want to hurt them.

Now, we can sit here and say that Rubric marines and Plague Marines will stop it dead cold and you're not wrong, but how many lists are taking large numbers of those to the point where it matters?
But get this - I covered my cheap chaff killing unit with 160 points. Let's make another unit. 20 Acolytes with 5 heavy rock saws - 190 points. And we'll make them Twisted Helix for S5.

10 WS3 S10 AP4 D2 attacks with NO minus to hit. But, wait, there is more. A primus pops up with them. He gives them +1 to hit and reroll wounds of 1. 10 * .833 * .998 = 8 D2 wounds that get through from JUST the rock saws. And there's **still** 30 more rending and 20 S4 AP0 attacks coming. Your durability, save, and FNP mean absolutely nothing to this unit and it made it's points back in one go.


Forgive me if I've mixed up some stuff, but this below is roughly 1400 points, which means ~550 to spend on aberrants and whatever else you want. It has buckets of CP. 3 WL traits (paid for by the +D3 CP trait). 3 Relics.

Depending on your opponent some units will ambush and some will be underground. Everything is pretty much fearless. Bump the CP generating acolytes to larger squads of neophytes if you need more cover for your characters.

Rusted Claw
[55] Iconward - gives 6+++
[87] Primus, Familiar (Crouchling - cast second and +1)
[160] 20 Acolytes, 20x Hand Flamer
[200] 20 Acolytes, 10x Hand Flamer, 10x Demo
[35] 5 Acolytes
[60] Kellermorph, Opressors Bane relic


Twisted Helix (or Four Armed Emporer)
[125] Patriarch, +1 A/T/W relic
[55] Iconward - reroll 1s to the 4+++ Aberrants
[190] 20 Acolytes, 5x Heavy Rock Saw
[35] 5 Acolytes
[35] 5 Acolytes
[55] Clamavus
[60] Kellermorph

Four Armed Emporer - gives Vect
[80] Magus, +D3 CP
[125] Patriarch, Preternatural Speed, No Overwatch and +1 to saves relic
[35] 5 Acolytes
[35] 5 Acolytes
[35] 5 Acolytes

 Silentz wrote:
Haha this thread has become a meme on Facebook 40k groups.

My favorite thing this morning is Geoff telling the masses about the "Acolyte Flamer Bomb", and then checking DakkaDakka to find a massive 8+ Page post whining about how "Broken" GSC is, and honestly I think I'm going to look into how I can become some kind of salt-fueled Lich because there's enough there to let me live forever.

Haven't been checking dakka, saw a similar but different post on facebook about this thread, decided to come and see how bad it truly was





it was even worse

 SHUPPET wrote:
Dakka: "GW is always handing out kneejerk nerfs! We're the reasonable ones here!"

Also Dakka: This thread

Have you known for me to call for kneejerk nerfs? I just got done defending GW in that there was no power creep, but this codex presents a clear indicator that the bar has really stepped up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Also FYI Kellermorph shooting twice even assuming he's got double shots with rerolling hits the whole time (because I'm too lazy to do the slightly worse actual math) and abbadon is not in cover doesn't even half health him.

Abaddon is the most severe edge case you could use to prove a point. The book with well beyond the KM at this point. He's just the executioner to finish up lists.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
Haha this thread has become a meme on Facebook 40k groups.

My favorite thing this morning is Geoff telling the masses about the "Acolyte Flamer Bomb", and then checking DakkaDakka to find a massive 8+ Page post whining about how "Broken" GSC is, and honestly I think I'm going to look into how I can become some kind of salt-fueled Lich because there's enough there to let me live forever.

Haven't been checking dakka, saw a similar but different post on facebook about this thread, decided to come and see how bad it truly was





it was even worse

As long as they're saying nice things about me

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Dakka: "GW is always handing out kneejerk nerfs! We're the reasonable ones here!"

Also Dakka: This thread

Have you known for me to call for kneejerk nerfs? I just got done defending GW in that there was no power creep, but this codex presents a clear indicator that the bar has really stepped up.

No, honestly I haven't known you for that at all in the past.

However that doesn't mean it's not what you're doing right now, when you're claiming a dex needs nerfs before it's even been played by the community.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Also FYI Kellermorph shooting twice even assuming he's got double shots with rerolling hits the whole time (because I'm too lazy to do the slightly worse actual math) and abbadon is not in cover doesn't even half health him.

Abaddon is the most severe edge case you could use to prove a point. The book with well beyond the KM at this point. He's just the executioner to finish up lists.

I really don't think Abaddon is the most severe edge case at all. Have fun killing ANYTHING of worth in my Nids list.

 SHUPPET wrote:

They get one powerful trick on turn 2, and another one turn 3. The double shoot stratagem shares its usage with the 3D6 charge. After that anything still left in reserves autopops.

How long do games typically last? 3 to 4 turns? Maybe 5? You can start Rusted Claw flamerbomb acolytes on the table and it literally doesn't matter, because they will be fearless with a 4+/6+++ vs most things and only 8 points. Meanwhile other units are dropping in their face.

Does everything need to be CP'd in to move? Absolutely not. You can DS your patriach, move him D6 with a reroll and deny overwatch. Then your other units at 9" with a +2 or +3 to charge.
Can't deepstrike? Why not move 11 to 12" a turn as Twisted Helix? Flamers don't care if you run.

So much theorycrafting and people vehemently swearing that they know what GT winners who have been playing the dex for month admit they themselves cannot possibly know at this point. Let's see how well this stuff holds up at the highest level before clamouring for nerfs and boycotts please lolol.

A boycott was a poor choice of action. It's not good to destroy the middle tier of the game. Nor is it good to ratchet the top tier to a handful of lists. This is not the game any of us want.

People are freaking out about all the wrong GSC stuff anyway imo. The Nexos is stupid good. So is C4E strat. Makes it hard to justify not taking a GSC ally for Nids. The Billermorph or spamming Burny clawbois? Bleh. Not even gonna buy the models. But we'll see where that stuff goes, so let's stop crucifying people who would like to do the rational thing and playtest your assumptions and calls of doom and gloom before agreeing them.

I haven't crucified anyone.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
20 Demos (yes, there is a 1CP strat to toss them all)

Which strat is that? I've seen 'Extra Explosives', but that's limited to 5 demo charges.

 SHUPPET wrote:

No, honestly I haven't known you for that at all in the past.

However that doesn't mean it's not what you're doing right now, when you're claiming a dex needs nerfs before it's even been played by the community.

Yea - that's fair. I've become that which I fought against the most on this forum. I'm still having a hard time shaking this feeling.

the_scotsman wrote:
I really don't think Abaddon is the most severe edge case at all. Have fun killing ANYTHING of worth in my Nids list.

Terminator armor and -1 damage is the best defense against KM. Holes can be made in other lists.

 Daedalus81 wrote:



20 Demos (yes, there is a 1CP strat to toss them all)

BZZZZZZZZT

Up to 10 models from that unit.

No more than 5 if throwing Demo charges.






Why bother playing against a codex, or even bother reading it properly, when you can just clamor for nerfs instead?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Dakka: "GW is always handing out kneejerk nerfs! We're the reasonable ones here!"

Also Dakka: This thread

Have you known for me to call for kneejerk nerfs? I just got done defending GW in that there was no power creep, but this codex presents a clear indicator that the bar has really stepped up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Also FYI Kellermorph shooting twice even assuming he's got double shots with rerolling hits the whole time (because I'm too lazy to do the slightly worse actual math) and abbadon is not in cover doesn't even half health him.

Abaddon is the most severe edge case you could use to prove a point. The book with well beyond the KM at this point. He's just the executioner to finish up lists.

If I Respond To a poster Saying you double shoot If you want to kill Abbadon It is not Cherrypicking an edge case.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:



20 Demos (yes, there is a 1CP strat to toss them all)

BZZZZZZZZT

Up to 10 models from that unit.

No more than 5 if throwing Demo charges.

Why bother reading a codex or even ever playing against it, when you can just clamor for nerfs instead?

Yep, fair - I missed that part. It's a pretty small gotcha, because I didn't expect it to be used in such a manner.