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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I like how back in Bulletin #17 we were told all about how penitent engines was apparently deliberately minimalist with no decoration... and then the studio mortifier is painted with a load of gilded bling on it.

Mortifier isn’t a Penitent Engine

What is the lore behind that anyway?
It looks like a penitent engine variant, but its too shooty and ornate for that?

Any pictures of Zephryim? Or are they just Seraphim with swords?

Apparently the Mortifier is a piloted by a Sister who’s been too naughty to be a Repentant.

So basically, the mortifiers are new take on the good old Iron Maidens, buffed up with technology. Seems like naughty sisters are gonna regret their previous actions

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Really GW? You got and make a new Sisters of Battle Codex and won't put a picture of the new Serephim in there, fill the book with pictures of the same 3 Seraphim minis (ie. the mono-pose ones from the Ltd. Ed. box) but then less than a week after it sells out instantly you are happy to show them off? What gives?

At least the Seraphim look good. And that Mortifier... wow. Those flails are going to be killing a lot of infantry.

Probably the final layout of the book was finished months ago and they only had pictures of the initial two sprues ready then.

On the topic of the Mortifier though, is it me or is that a battle sister in there? Like Mortifier is to Repentia as Penitent Engine is to Arco-flagellants?
Can they then redeem themselves and be detached? Is this a volunteer role?

I hope that the Mortifier has poseablility like the Redemptor. It'll be interesting to how many modeling options are on on the sprue. not necessarily digging the flails but should he easily rectified.

I'm confused. What's the point of Penitent Engines if Mortifiers can be given the exact same loadout as a Pengine? What am i missing?

Mortifiers are a type of Penitant Engine.

As far as I understand, peni has FnP, while morti has better WS/BS

Mehtinks?

It looks like Penitent Engines have a 5+ FNP and Zealot and Mortifiers have a 6+ FNP, when they die 4+ to cause d3 MW to enemies, the better flail weapons,assault bolters / pistol flamers and better movement, BS and WS.

For 8 points more.

I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.

Lanlaorn wrote:
It looks like Penitent Engines have a 5+ FNP and Zealot and Mortifiers have a 6+ FNP, when they die 4+ to cause d3 MW to enemies, the better flail weapons,assault bolters / pistol flamers and better movement, BS and WS.

For 8 points more.

I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.

Slightly tougher... a slight variant to get around the rule of three?

Yeah Mortifiers do seem better though. But since both are acting as a distraction carnifex, maybe the cheaper, slightly tougher one is the better option?

Lanlaorn wrote:
I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.

Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.

New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.

Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.

New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.

That's the weird thing, you might own Mortifiers as they can swap their bolter and flails for flamers and buzzsaws to match the old (and current!) Penitent Engines.
Just depends if you think your pilot is a heretic or a failed sister.

Tastyfish wrote:

Spoiler:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.

Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.

New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.

That's the weird thing, you might own Mortifiers as they can swap their bolter and flails for flamers and buzzsaws to match the old (and current!) Penitent Engines.
Just depends if you think your pilot is a heretic or a failed sister.

I like the idea of a Sister who bypasses the whole repentia and goes straight to mortifier

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.

Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.

New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.

. Not again with this stupid rhetoric
For every great new model, two with bad rules come out, it's just that nobody makes a fuss about them and they get forgotten.

GW ain't perfect at balance, and making glaring mistakes is nothing new.
Over valuing zealot and the improved fnp sounds exactly like GW. (though to be fair, 4+ reroll is better than 3+, and the pent cares not about BS)

 BoomWolf wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.

Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.

New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.

. Not again with this stupid rhetoric
For every great new model, two with bad rules come out, it's just that nobody makes a fuss about them and they get forgotten.

GW ain't perfect at balance, and making glaring mistakes is nothing new.
Over valuing zealot and the improved fnp sounds exactly like GW. (though to be fair, 4+ reroll is better than 3+, and the pent cares not about BS)

GW sucks at balance but they do tend to make dual kits seemingly with one version kinda crap, the one that was around forever, and one version actually good or omg good even until they get nerfed down the line.

Some examples ? Ogryn/Bullgryns, Hydra/Wyvern, Manticore/Deathstrike though in all fairness the manticore deathstrike kit was new to plastic for the manticore so in this instance the old model was much much better than the new one.

They do tend to have a trend that in dual kits one is good, the other not so much. Now thats either done out of complete lack of understanding of their own rules, or to be sure they push at least one half of a dual kit so it's sold.

I'm sure there are more examples but I'm not going to just list them all out here.

So which one is it, do they hold all the game design ability of a pair of mutton chops or do they actively try their best to push at least one half of a dual kit with better rules at least in so far as they can understand the rules they write ?

Or a simpler solution, if a kit makes two units, it has better chances that at least one of them is good?

And there are still dual kits where both sides stuck. When did you last see a tau plane for example?

not sure if this has been mentioned bu it looks like multipart kits and standard codex is up for pre-order in January...
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/18/sisters-of-battle-situation-report/

Proper datasheet for Triumph:



Keyword wise it isn't limited to any Order so anyone can take it.

Also each relic ties in to one specific major order, which is a nice touch .

That models is so odd... with a bunch of Heavy Bolters you can absolutely devastate it... and with his 6" movement without possibility to put it in a transport , to reach meele with it is nearly impossible...

But at the same time it has so many little touches and buffs... I just want to make it work!

 Galas wrote:
with a bunch of Heavy Bolters you can absolutely devastate it...

No because it has the character keyw... oh yeah, 18 wounds lol.
[edit]It tanks heavy bolter as well as 18 sisters would though, and it takes a lot of heavy bolters to kill 18 sisters. And also -1 to hit. I'm more worried about multi-wound weapons...[/edit]

 Galas wrote:
That models is so odd... with a bunch of Heavy Bolters you can absolutely devastate it...

If it's problem was only heavy bolters it wouldn't be too bad - after all a basic infantry squad is no less vulnerable and at ~10pts per wound it would be like having a squad of celestians with free relics... not particularly useful but not especially vulnerable either.

But the Triumph is vulnerable to losing wounds in bunches - like having a squad of light infantry lose six models to a single railgun or lascannon hit - which is not helpful.

 Galas wrote:
That models is so odd... with a bunch of Heavy Bolters you can absolutely devastate it... and with his 6" movement without possibility to put it in a transport , to reach meele with it is nearly impossible...

But at the same time it has so many little touches and buffs... I just want to make it work!

The size is probably on the large side as well, so hidding it will be difficult.

..it'll be interesting to see if anyone makes that model work, ill tell you that. im not hopeful because if anything qualifies as a target, it would be this. that said, it's got a solid invul and could use miracle dice to deflect the occasional hit, covering itself with the argent shroud and the Sacred rose relics if the dice is a 3 up.

the dice generation is a factor thats going to make for a twist in estimating it. seems to go off on both players turns, right? and remember charge and advance dice do work for miracles and if your trying to rush it into fights, hand of the emperor may well be useful if your willing to go that far.

I find it a super interesting and unique model. It's defensive capabilities might be stronger than you'd think after a first look. It generates two miracle dice per turn that on a 3+ can both be used to pass it's invulnerable save. With a -1 to hit, that's gonna soak up a lot of high damage fire power. It is probably most vulnerable to s6+ and flat damage 2/3 weapons with high fire rates, such as avenger gattling cannons...

In the space of 5 minutes I've gone from think its terrible to "maybe give it a shot".

I think its really going to come down to how valuable all those buffs are, which is difficult to quantify without experience.

10 and a bit points per wound on T3, 3+/4++ with a minus 1 to hit isn't that bad. Yes, you get unlucky versus some heavy bolters, and she will shed a lot of wounds, but its going to take some time.

The negatives are almost no shooting and being slow. Combat ability is okay - but not exceptional for 185 points, and that looks like quite a punishing damage chart.

In a world where greater daemons post CA might have comparable points cost I'm not convinced.

Us3Less wrote:
It generates two miracle dice per turn that on a 3+ can both be used to pass it's invulnerable save

You mean only 1 per turn, or did I miss something?
And there is this weird limitation on being able to use only one (two with this model) miracle dice per phase, why this restriction?

I guess he meant two per round. Also, the limitation is actually one Act of Faith per phase, and the Act of Faith rules seem to say 'substitute one or more dice'.

The way I parse it is you would say 'I will roll saves for this model from that unit's attacks. I will use an Act of Faith and use X dice to pass X saves'. So I think you can make multiple saves, but possibly only if the wounds all come from one source. It's a little confusing.

I quite like the Triumph, if just from a "that is neat" angle. Since my old SoB tactic was to rush the opposition so they could feel the fires of wrath, this won't really work that well for that "tactic"

Maybe a Penitent Engine screen? I am thinking of a Wedge...Repentia and Arcoflagellants in the lead, Engines come next, followed by the main force of Sisters, Immolators and the Triumph as a centerpiece. Seraphim and Assassins on the flanks.

Try to maximize the Triumph's many artifacts and buff as many SoB squads in the center . Hmmm...need to think this out...pity those ranges aren't 12"...

speaking of Assassin's... ive been thinking on a plausible list for my playstyle, but i should consider what works well while still maintaining the benefits of the sisters mono rules and without.

i think inquisitors are ruled to work and not cause problems, because as i understand it, you can only run one missionary HQ in a list.. am i right on that? how about Assassins? I imagine anything else would ruin sacred rites or the order convictions depending on how you arrange your forces.

Bdrone wrote:
speaking of Assassin's... ive been thinking on a plausible list for my playstyle, but i should consider what works well while still maintaining the benefits of the sisters mono rules and without.

i think inquisitors are ruled to work and not cause problems, because as i understand it, you can only run one missionary HQ in a list.. am i right on that? how about Assassins? I imagine anything else would ruin sacred rites or the order convictions depending on how you arrange your forces.

I though it was you could not have more than 1 missionary HQ per Detachment. So 2 detachments with min 2 HQ, only 1 per could be a missionary.

"Lone Mission: You can only include a single MISSIONARY in each Detachment in a Battle-forged army."