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Slipspace wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Is it possible to have one vehicle with the options for both a hybrid engine and a full electric motor? VW do it with the Golf don’t they?

It is, but that tends to lead to compromises that are undesirable. Generally speaking you're better off developing an electric from the ground up. The Golf, for example, has quite a short range for an electric, and I suspect that's at least partially down to it being based on a regular ICE car.

It's purely down to cost. Batteries are expensive, and VW probably just wanted to dip their toe in electrics building experience before going all in.

http://www.kreiselelectric.com/en/projects/electric-golf/

Here's an aftermarket battery that jumps the capacity to 55,7 kw/h and 350/450km of range which is in line with other extended range electric cars.

There's nothing stopping anyone from making long-range cars except whether the market will accept the accompanying price tag.

The case of this island is special because their key concern is to reduce imports of diesel rather than ensure everyone can drive around all the time.

However it is true that most cars spend most of their time sitting still, and EVs spend most of thier sitting still time plugged into the mains. It's also true that most EV journeys are a fraction of the full range of the battery.

(As in my case, where I need to drive 25 miles in the morning, then 25 miles in the evening, and I could potentially be plugged in for 9 hours in the day and 13 hours overnight.)

Therefore the Porto Santo case is an interesting technical trial of technology which might be useful to roll out Europe wide in the longer term. It's not a full solution.

Slipspace wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Radio 4 had an interesting report this morning about Porto Santo, an island in Portugal where they currently import most of their energy in the form of diesel.

They want to go sustainable and have plenty of potential for solar and wind, but they need a battery storage solution for calm/dark times.

They have teamed up with Renault to provide electric cars which can charge during peak production and feed back power into the local grid at night.

The cars only spend about 20% of their time being driven, so the rest of the time they can act as the island's power reserve.

Was also on the BBC News on TV this morning. It's interesting but I was a bit confused about some of the practicalities. The biggest concern most EV owners have is range and charging time and this system seemed to reduce range by taking energy from the car,

the island is only about 15km long, so range probably isn't an issue.

The longest drive you can make is 7 miles with average temperatures of 15-22C. Porto Santo is not an example of somewhere that can use EVs, its an example of the lazyness of people. That is perfect for cycling and walking. Far more sustainable for a tiny island.

jouso wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Is it possible to have one vehicle with the options for both a hybrid engine and a full electric motor? VW do it with the Golf don’t they?

It is, but that tends to lead to compromises that are undesirable. Generally speaking you're better off developing an electric from the ground up. The Golf, for example, has quite a short range for an electric, and I suspect that's at least partially down to it being based on a regular ICE car.

It's purely down to cost. Batteries are expensive, and VW probably just wanted to dip their toe in electrics building experience before going all in.

http://www.kreiselelectric.com/en/projects/electric-golf/

Here's an aftermarket battery that jumps the capacity to 55,7 kw/h and 350/450km of range which is in line with other extended range electric cars.

There's nothing stopping anyone from making long-range cars except whether the market will accept the accompanying price tag.

My little aygo, costs about 8-10 grand new. But it still does 60mph, still has a max range of 300-400 miles and can refuel in 5 minutes.

Cheap car. Basic. Does a solid 40-50 mpg though.

The problem is a electric car to do the same probably costs 20-30grand +

Much as change, especially with efficiency upgrades and so, fosil fuel cars are still mature technology, cheap technology and we lack the infrastructure to fully roll out electric or hydrogen.

There are thousands of places to refuel fosil fuel. Far less electricity points, and even less hyrmdrogen fuel stops.

To really be embraced there needs to be a major advantage over petrol and such cars, be it cost, tech, ranges. They need some way to stand out.

One added issue to solve, well solve self pretty much but repairs need a big shift to mainstream to help there success. You need special tools and gear. There not always easiest to work on. Especially if there power system involved as the voltage and power can be lethal. Mosth cars use about 12volts, or 24 at times.

Not the hefty batteries they use.

Those are not really huge problems.

Everyone can have a charging point at home for an EV, and there are new public charging points every day. They are much easier and cheaper than petrol stations. The latest Tesla does and 85% charge in 20mins, which is not that much longer than the time it takes to fill a car with petrol and pay. Payment for EVs can all be automated with no need to do anything. And most of the time you don’t even need to stop. It is 20mins a few times a year rather than 5 a week for most people.

The cost is partly an issue of mass production and partly that you pay upfront costs with less ongoing costs.

They don’t need special tools, just different ones, and the batteries are no more dangerous than high pressure direct injection engines. They can cause huge damage if you get in the way of one.

Unless there is a huge line, where the heck does it take 20 minutes to fill your gas tank? The actual filling and paying takes a couple minutes tops.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless there is a huge line, where the heck does it take 20 minutes to fill your gas tank? The actual filling and paying takes a couple minutes tops.

Its rare but it happens. Especially when you consider the time it take to route to a filling station. Again with my EV i don't have to go to filling stations at all except on super long trips. My car get topped off every night in my garage.

Model 3 is officially the fastest charging car currently in production!
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/10/top-gear-declares-tesla-model-3-fastest-charging-car-in-the-world/

Still faster than Audi Etron despite Audi Claims. https://electrek.co/2019/06/11/tesla-model-3-vs-audi-e-tron-350kw-charge-off/

Audi Etron and Jaguar Recalls https://www.businessinsider.com/audi-jaguar-recalls-e-tron-i-pace-tesla-competitors-2019-6

New model S will charge just as fast and will have over 400 miles of range.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless there is a huge line, where the heck does it take 20 minutes to fill your gas tank? The actual filling and paying takes a couple minutes tops.

Not 20, but 10, by the time you have queued, filled up, queued to pay, got back to the car. That’s not unusual, especially if you fill up as a commuter.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless there is a huge line, where the heck does it take 20 minutes to fill your gas tank? The actual filling and paying takes a couple minutes tops.

Not 20, but 10, by the time you have queued, filled up, queued to pay, got back to the car. That’s not unusual, especially if you fill up as a commuter.

Lined up to pay? What is this, 1975?

Bypassing the street teaming...

 Frazzled wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless there is a huge line, where the heck does it take 20 minutes to fill your gas tank? The actual filling and paying takes a couple minutes tops.

Not 20, but 10, by the time you have queued, filled up, queued to pay, got back to the car. That’s not unusual, especially if you fill up as a commuter.

Lined up to pay? What is this, 1975?

Bear in mind that the poster you're quoting is not in the US, where we drop filling stations at ridiculously close intervals.

 Steve steveson wrote:
Those are not really huge problems.

Everyone can have a charging point at home for an EV,

There are huge swathes of Glasgow where that's not the case. The areas of tenement flats, where you've got six or eight separate homes with enough street frontage for two cars, parked on the street. It's not uncommon for people to park their car a block or two away, and not in the same spot from day to day.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless there is a huge line, where the heck does it take 20 minutes to fill your gas tank? The actual filling and paying takes a couple minutes tops.

Not 20, but 10, by the time you have queued, filled up, queued to pay, got back to the car. That’s not unusual, especially if you fill up as a commuter.

You mean you don’t have credit card machines on your pumps? What savages...

Teslas Shareholder meeting was pretty informative. Truck debut should be sometime this summer for all you pick up truck drivers, Semi should start production this year also along with mass placement of V3 chargers. Tesla Killers still at levels of charge and efficiency that Tesla was at in 2012. Tesla also looking for spots to build European factory. Q2 looking very good for Tesla.

as bad as q1 was for Tesla they still out sold all of Porsche and Jaguar https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/08/tesla-outsold-porsche-jaguar-globally-in-1st-quarter/

Tesla revenue sheet




Its easy for legacy companies to talk about building EVS.....not so easy for them to catch up. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/10/promising-compelling-electric-cars-is-easy-building-them-is-hard-audi-e-tron-jaguar-i-pace-recalls/

Bad news for Hydrogen. https://electrek.co/2019/06/11/hydrogen-station-explodes-toyota-halts-sales-fuel-cell-cars/




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Is it possible to have one vehicle with the options for both a hybrid engine and a full electric motor? VW do it with the Golf don’t they?

Its possible, but its not Ideal. The best cars are purpose built. This has been a major problem with many of the EVs out there right now, they were not built from scratch as EVS.....and it shows. The body architecture is completely different or at least it should be to take advantage of how an EV can lay out its Drivetrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cryptek Keeper wrote:
I have a question about electric cars. Is it unfeasible to carry an extended range battery in one, maybe in the trunk or backseat, maybe one the size of a suitcase?

Not really, now I think Rivien has the option to place a secondary battery in the bed of the truck that would extend range at the cost of using the truck bed. I don't think a suitcase sized battery will get you very far.

If ya want people to take your argument seriously, please, for feht's sake, quit trying to compare Tesla sales to Porsche and Jaguar. . .


I'll even help you out here: if I wanted to make a point about how well a vehicle is selling comparatively I would do this: "look at how many Ford F-150s are sold compared to the Chevy Silverado or Toyota Tundra".

That comparison works because all three of the vehicles mentioned compete in the same segment. Segmentation is important because each segment, by and large has its own distinct characteristics/traits in terms of the buyers.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
If ya want people to take your argument seriously, please, for feht's sake, quit trying to compare Tesla sales to Porsche and Jaguar. . .


I'll even help you out here: if I wanted to make a point about how well a vehicle is selling comparatively I would do this: "look at how many Ford F-150s are sold compared to the Chevy Silverado or Toyota Tundra".

That comparison works because all three of the vehicles mentioned compete in the same segment. Segmentation is important because each segment, by and large has its own distinct characteristics/traits in terms of the buyers.

You are missing the point. Currently Tesla sells 3 cars...thats it, not even globally yet. Actually in a very limited market so far, Model 3 has only recently landed outside of the US !.....and yet they are outselling prominent legacy automakers who have global distribution and a full range of vehicles. This is extremely telling. Especially when people claim that demand for Teslas is dying. Teslas numbers are a production issue, not a demand issue. This is why Tesla doesnt even bother to market or advertise yet, it would be a waste as they already sell everything they produce.....why spend money on advertising and marketing when you can't produce enough to keep up with demand?

"Porsche sells the Panamera, which I consider to be a sport sedan. They chose to sell at the price points and models they have. They didn't make a "stretched Boxster" that competes with the Model 3, but the Boxster is in the same price range as the Model 3 so all the nonsense about different markets and demographics is just that, nonsense. And they sell SUVs.

Facts - Porsche chose to market the products it has, with a 73 year lead and the backing of VW, and is selling fewer than Tesla. If you want to emphasize different markets, that's partly true. Tesla hasn't had time to enter as many markets. Over time their continued geographic expansion will skew the comparative sales numbers even more. Porsche decided on their product mix and marketing, they own the results. Great engineering for a great niche company - and none of that changes the numbers"

So as you see we could do segments, but it hardly matters. Model 3 is dominating all kinds of segments wherever it goes and thats versus legacy ICE cars! (lets face it if we wanted to really micro segment Tesla already dominates every EV segment it is in outside of China) When a company with a limited portfolio of models and limited distribution is outselling whole legacy brands (and look we are not talking about coach built bespoke supercar brands) we have an indication as to how well that company and its products are doing.....which is quite well. Short term investors may not be happy about returns as the company throws so much money into growth, but the demand for growth is there, make hay while the sun shines.

Also this https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/447171-teslas-advantage-its-the-software-stupid
"As an owner of both an Audi and a Tesla, I’ve been eagerly awaiting the arrival of a Tesla competitor, and I was excited to take the Audi electric for a test drive. My excitement was short-lived. It’s a flop; a lemon. Calling it a 21st-century Edsel is not an overstatement. The car drives okay, and although it has a much more limited range than a Tesla, it is — as advertised — a functioning electric automobile.

What it decidedly is not is a Tesla.In fact, it isn’t within hailing distance of Tesla. The Audi electric’s software is non-intuitive and utterly impossible to use. Its user interface is a frustrating obstacle course. Audi simply doesn’t get it. Not yet anyway. It needs to quit and start over. Audi, the first legitimate competitor to Tesla, has shipped a working electric car that is a bad joke. Its failure to understand that “it’s the software stupid” has given Musk even more time to extend his competitive advantage. "

And if you like the Jag I pace this pro Jag guy has some sad news. https://www.technewsworld.com/story/85800.html

Problem for getting a Tesla in the UK (not sure if it's the same in Europe) is the mark up on US selling costs. Model 3 is $35K in the US, you would expect (conservatively) £30k or so given exchange rate. Nope - it costs £40k. Difference is more pronounced for the model S.

VW Golfs and Jag electrics are bloody expensive too (Prius too for that matter) - think the Hyundai Ioniq electric version is probably one of the cheapest over here (and I think actually has got quite good reviews) and still getting on for £30k. So even though the running costs are vastly cheaper than petrol or diesel engine cars, you still need that investment up front - which I think along with the lack of charging points has stopped people going all out and lots of them selling (although you are seeing a hell of a lot more of them on the roads over here).

 Frazzled wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless there is a huge line, where the heck does it take 20 minutes to fill your gas tank? The actual filling and paying takes a couple minutes tops.

Not 20, but 10, by the time you have queued, filled up, queued to pay, got back to the car. That’s not unusual, especially if you fill up as a commuter.

Lined up to pay? What is this, 1975?

UK - we get up and go and queue at the bar to get served drinks too!

 Andrew1975 wrote:

And how much many does Tesla make with those sales?

I mean as long as I have enough shareholder billions to burn I can sell dollars for 99p and have an exponential growth company.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless there is a huge line, where the heck does it take 20 minutes to fill your gas tank? The actual filling and paying takes a couple minutes tops.

Not 20, but 10, by the time you have queued, filled up, queued to pay, got back to the car. That’s not unusual, especially if you fill up as a commuter.

You mean you don’t have credit card machines on your pumps? What savages...

They're pretty common (ASDA doesn't have a manned pay point at their supermarket pumps at all), but usually not all pumps in a petrol station have a pay-at-pump facility. Also, if you need anything from the shop, you obviously can't do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I mean as long as I have enough shareholder billions to burn I can sell dollars for 99p and have an exponential growth company.

At the moment, doing that would make you 20% profit (1USD = 0.79GBP), but I know what you meant.

Deleted

You should always be worried when companies are very keen to show off their revenue. Profit is what's important, but revenue always looks so much flashier so that's what companies tend to advertise. You can have huge revenues and even greater costs and those revenues mean absolutely nothing because you're still losing money. As for the market segment stuff, I think it's pretty clear there's at least one poster in this thread who has their own unique take on reality and I don't think it's worth taking things much further on that front.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless there is a huge line, where the heck does it take 20 minutes to fill your gas tank? The actual filling and paying takes a couple minutes tops.

Not 20, but 10, by the time you have queued, filled up, queued to pay, got back to the car. That’s not unusual, especially if you fill up as a commuter.

You mean you don’t have credit card machines on your pumps? What savages...

They're pretty common (ASDA doesn't have a manned pay point at their supermarket pumps at all), but usually not all pumps in a petrol station have a pay-at-pump facility. Also, if you need anything from the shop, you obviously can't do that.

I have found them less and less common. Supermarket stations often have them, but supermarkets are often in places that are not that convenient to get to unless you are going to the supermarket. Petrol stations not linked to a supermarket have them less and less. They want to drive customers in to the shop. They make very little profit on fuel, so anyone stopping just to fill up is a lost opertunity to flog them a mars bar, bottle of wine or bag of logs. Very annoying when all you want to do is get a tank on the way to work.

jouso wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

And how much many does Tesla make with those sales?

I mean as long as I have enough shareholder billions to burn I can sell dollars for 99p and have an exponential growth company.

Check the news reports though. There making a fortune yes but also spending it just as fast at the same time.

There making billions but bwtwrrn model 3 issues with giga factories and more. They spent a vast chunk of that.

Also. They get some major subsidies at times for making electric cars, yet as articles show. They have been losing a fair amount of money at times, barely meeting production targets for months last year ish, and the model 3 production was beget with major issues.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless there is a huge line, where the heck does it take 20 minutes to fill your gas tank? The actual filling and paying takes a couple minutes tops.

Not 20, but 10, by the time you have queued, filled up, queued to pay, got back to the car. That’s not unusual, especially if you fill up as a commuter.

You mean you don’t have credit card machines on your pumps? What savages...

Thats what threw me.

 jhe90 wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

And how much many does Tesla make with those sales?

I mean as long as I have enough shareholder billions to burn I can sell dollars for 99p and have an exponential growth company.

Check the news reports though. There making a fortune yes but also spending it just as fast at the same time.

There making billions but bwtwrrn model 3 issues with giga factories and more. They spent a vast chunk of that.

Nope. Their capex (which is where factories, tooling for new models, etc. goes) minus depreciation is almost negative.

They're spending lots of money to keep the machine going.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless there is a huge line, where the heck does it take 20 minutes to fill your gas tank? The actual filling and paying takes a couple minutes tops.

Not 20, but 10, by the time you have queued, filled up, queued to pay, got back to the car. That’s not unusual, especially if you fill up as a commuter.

I don't bother timing it but I expect it takes me between 5 and 20 minutes to fill up once a week, depending on how busy it is.

If I've stopping at a motorway service station it's more like 30-40 minutes, because you go for a wee, get a coffee, go and look in WH Smiths and then have to round up the family and put them back in the car. This is where the EV charging time and the petrol filling time make no difference.

jouso wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

And how much many does Tesla make with those sales?

I mean as long as I have enough shareholder billions to burn I can sell dollars for 99p and have an exponential growth company.

Check the news reports though. There making a fortune yes but also spending it just as fast at the same time.

There making billions but bwtwrrn model 3 issues with giga factories and more. They spent a vast chunk of that.

Nope. Their capex (which is where factories, tooling for new models, etc. goes) minus depreciation is almost negative.

They're spending lots of money to keep the machine going.

They are spending tons of money building the Infrastructure and R&D. I'm not sure which news reports you are looking at. They are currently tooling for 5 New products (Semi, Truck, Y, Roadster, V3 charger), Building a factory in China. That takes a lot of cash. Not to mention retooling S and X. Tooling is always going to be there as refresh on cars is a constant thing, setting up new lines and factories is not.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

If I've stopping at a motorway service station it's more like 30-40 minutes, because you go for a wee, get a coffee, go and look in WH Smiths and then have to round up the family and put them back in the car. This is where the EV charging time and the petrol filling time make no difference.

At least until electric cars make up a meaningful part of the motor pool.

Petrol stations are very efficient space wise, in the way that in 3-5 minutes you can stop, fill up and go. An electric car will spend 20 minutes at least hooked up, so imagine what the usual service station on a major route has to look like to cope with an influx of electric cars spending 5 to 10 times the current time it takes to fill up and go (I'm not counting coffee/bathroom times because usually that's something you do after you've filled up, so the car is no longer occupying a refueling stall).

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless there is a huge line, where the heck does it take 20 minutes to fill your gas tank? The actual filling and paying takes a couple minutes tops.

Not 20, but 10, by the time you have queued, filled up, queued to pay, got back to the car. That’s not unusual, especially if you fill up as a commuter.

I don't bother timing it but I expect it takes me between 5 and 20 minutes to fill up once a week, depending on how busy it is.

If I've stopping at a motorway service station it's more like 30-40 minutes, because you go for a wee, get a coffee, go and look in WH Smiths and then have to round up the family and put them back in the car. This is where the EV charging time and the petrol filling time make no difference.

I'm 100% positive I spend much less of my time fueling my car now then I did in the past and I drive quite a lot. I used to have to stop for gas 3 times a week. Now I havent taken my car on super extended trips. When I used to drive from Alabama to Cleveland I had to stop twice in my old car. Usually for gas, bathroom break and food, was at least a half hour. That would get my Tesla to about 80% right now on a super charger......that last 20% admittedly does go pretty slow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

If I've stopping at a motorway service station it's more like 30-40 minutes, because you go for a wee, get a coffee, go and look in WH Smiths and then have to round up the family and put them back in the car. This is where the EV charging time and the petrol filling time make no difference.

At least until electric cars make up a meaningful part of the motor pool.

Petrol stations are very efficient space wise, in the way that in 3-5 minutes you can stop, fill up and go. An electric car will spend 20 minutes at least hooked up, so imagine what the usual service station on a major route has to look like to cope with an influx of electric cars spending 5 to 10 times the current time it takes to fill up and go (I'm not counting coffee/bathroom times because usually that's something you do after you've filled up, so the car is no longer occupying a refueling stall).

This is less of an issue than you think. Most people will charge at home. I rarely use a charger. Also chargers can be most anywhere, so most any parking spot can have a charger, they don't need to be at service stations. This is one of the reasons Tesla is not offering free charging on the model 3. Too many people with free charging just hog up the chargers instead of charging at home. This was ok when Teslas were not so prevalent, but if they keep selling at the current rate it is unsustainable. Why you would waste an hour of your life over $8 is kind of beyond me. Just charge at home if you can.

 Andrew1975 wrote:


They are spending tons of money building the Infrastructure and R&D. I'm not sure which news reports you are looking at. They are currently tooling for 5 New products (Semi, Truck, Y, Roadster, V3 charger), Building a factory in China. That takes a lot of cash. Not to mention retooling S and X.

I don't need to look at news, it's all in Tesla's quarterly reports.



Anything below 100 means the company is investing less than what current equipment depreciates. Q1 2019 was even lower.