What do you think about electric cars?

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**Frazzled**

Andrew1975 wrote:
jouso wrote:
jhe90 wrote:
jouso wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

And how much many does Tesla make with those sales?

I mean as long as I have enough shareholder billions to burn I can sell dollars for 99p and have an exponential growth company.

Check the news reports though. There making a fortune yes but also spending it just as fast at the same time.

There making billions but bwtwrrn model 3 issues with giga factories and more. They spent a vast chunk of that.

Nope. Their capex (which is where factories, tooling for new models, etc. goes) minus depreciation is almost negative.

They're spending lots of money to keep the machine going.

They are spending tons of money building the Infrastructure and R&D. I'm not sure which news reports you are looking at. They are currently tooling for 5 New products (Semi, Truck, Y, Roadster, V3 charger), Building a factory in China. That takes a lot of cash. Not to mention retooling S and X. Tooling is always going to be there as refresh on cars is a constant thing, setting up new lines and factories is not.

Building a factory in China knocks them off my list of potential car companies.

**Slipspace**

jouso wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:

If I've stopping at a motorway service station it's more like 30-40 minutes, because you go for a wee, get a coffee, go and look in WH Smiths and then have to round up the family and put them back in the car. This is where the EV charging time and the petrol filling time make no difference.

At least until electric cars make up a meaningful part of the motor pool.

Petrol stations are very efficient space wise, in the way that in 3-5 minutes you can stop, fill up and go. An electric car will spend 20 minutes at least hooked up, so imagine what the usual service station on a major route has to look like to cope with an influx of electric cars spending 5 to 10 times the current time it takes to fill up and go (I'm not counting coffee/bathroom times because usually that's something you do after you've filled up, so the car is no longer occupying a refueling stall).

This really requires a change in attitude from local and national governments. You can solve this problem by putting recharging points in each car parking bay at motorway services, so you don't have a specific charging station like you do a petrol station. There's probably some infrastructure issues apart from just installing the charging points that you'd need to figure out but the big advantage of charging points is you don't need loads of highly specialised equipment like underground tanks for the fuel and pressurised pumps. As we're looking at buying an EV I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I see a lot of missed opportunities. A shopping centre near my work recently did a lot of work in their car park, for example, and didn't put a single EV charging point in. If I drive there and do my shopping I can't charge my car while I'm in the shop. To make EVs more viable we need a change in attitude all-round. Not coincidentally that's exactly what many EV users experience once they go electric. Their approach to recharging is completely different to the approach to regular refuelling, with "little and often" being the best practice, rather than waiting until the tank's empty and filling up all in one go.

Edit: also, any chance we could stop quoting that obnoxiously large graph in replies, or at least spoiler-tag it? Makes reading this thread on a phone almost impossible!

**Andrew1975**

jouso wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

They are spending tons of money building the Infrastructure and R&D. I'm not sure which news reports you are looking at. They are currently tooling for 5 New products (Semi, Truck, Y, Roadster, V3 charger), Building a factory in China. That takes a lot of cash. Not to mention retooling S and X.

I don't need to look at news, it's all in Tesla's quarterly reports.

Anything below 100 means the company is investing less than what current equipment depreciates. Q1 2019 was even lower.

OK, but that doesn't mean they aren't spending vast sums. Its just investing less than what current equipment depreciates. You have to look deeper.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Building a factory in China knocks them off my list of potential car companies.

Why, its smart. Especially with the Tarrifs coming. This lets them skip tarrifs by avoiding import/export. You may be surprised at who has factories in China already. Spoiler alert, Most US Auto companies have factories in China....so I'm not sure which brand you could buy. Tesla is still going to make its American cars in America.

**Frazzled**

Slipspace wrote:
jouso wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:

If I've stopping at a motorway service station it's more like 30-40 minutes, because you go for a wee, get a coffee, go and look in WH Smiths and then have to round up the family and put them back in the car. This is where the EV charging time and the petrol filling time make no difference.

At least until electric cars make up a meaningful part of the motor pool.

Petrol stations are very efficient space wise, in the way that in 3-5 minutes you can stop, fill up and go. An electric car will spend 20 minutes at least hooked up, so imagine what the usual service station on a major route has to look like to cope with an influx of electric cars spending 5 to 10 times the current time it takes to fill up and go (I'm not counting coffee/bathroom times because usually that's something you do after you've filled up, so the car is no longer occupying a refueling stall).

This really requires a change in attitude from local and national governments. You can solve this problem by putting recharging points in each car parking bay at motorway services, so you don't have a specific charging station like you do a petrol station. There's probably some infrastructure issues apart from just installing the charging points that you'd need to figure out but the big advantage of charging points is you don't need loads of highly specialised equipment like underground tanks for the fuel and pressurised pumps. As we're looking at buying an EV I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I see a lot of missed opportunities. A shopping centre near my work recently did a lot of work in their car park, for example, and didn't put a single EV charging point in. If I drive there and do my shopping I can't charge my car while I'm in the shop. To make EVs more viable we need a change in attitude all-round. Not coincidentally that's exactly what many EV users experience once they go electric. Their approach to recharging is completely different to the approach to regular refuelling, with "little and often" being the best practice, rather than waiting until the tank's empty and filling up all in one go.

Edit: also, any chance we could stop quoting that obnoxiously large graph in replies, or at least spoiler-tag it? Makes reading this thread on a phone almost impossible!

I have to agree that this is a problem, but an achievable temporary one. "Refuelling" stations are a capex investment but not a technology one. Indeed, many existing gas stations could gradually start adding fast rechargers as the market shifts (same reason for fuel sales to drive customers inside while waiting).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andrew1975 wrote:
jouso wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

They are spending tons of money building the Infrastructure and R&D. I'm not sure which news reports you are looking at. They are currently tooling for 5 New products (Semi, Truck, Y, Roadster, V3 charger), Building a factory in China. That takes a lot of cash. Not to mention retooling S and X.

I don't need to look at news, it's all in Tesla's quarterly reports.

Anything below 100 means the company is investing less than what current equipment depreciates. Q1 2019 was even lower.

OK, but that doesn't mean they aren't spending vast sums. Its just investing less than what current equipment depreciates. You have to look deeper.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Building a factory in China knocks them off my list of potential car companies.

Why, its smart. Especially with the Tarrifs coming. This lets them skip tarrifs by avoiding import/export. You may be surprised at who has factories in China already.

If there are tariffs its less smart. Its makes sales to the US more expensive.
Honda, NIssan, and Toyota have major plants in the US. I will stick with those. Its the same reason I haven't looked at a Ford or GM ever.

**Andrew1975**

I have to agree that this is a problem, but an achievable temporary one. "Refuelling" stations are a capex investment but not a technology one. Indeed, many existing gas stations could gradually start adding fast rechargers as the market shifts (same reason for fuel sales to drive customers inside while waiting).

You are missing the point. Charging stations can be most anywhere. Grocery store parking lot, street meters, movie theaters, just about anywhere. No EPA issues or nasty cleanup like a gas station and less maintenance. Sheets currently has an agreement with Tesla, which works nicely because a Telal customer is in general going to be there longer and spend more money per fill up. They have probably been on the road for hours and need a break.

If there are tariffs its less smart. Its makes sales to the US more expensive.
Honda, NIssan, and Toyota have major plants in the US. I will stick with those. Its the same reason I haven't looked at a Ford or GM ever.

But again, the American Teslas will be built here. There will still be production in the US. They are not moving all production to China, just Chinese production. Tesla is also looking at building another factory in Europe right now. By building in China for China they skip the import/export tarrifs. Honda, Nissan and Toyota still have their plants in their home countries and elsewhere.

**Frazzled**

No, I am actually agreeing that its just a matter of capital investment, that its a temporary problem.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Frazzled wrote:

Building a factory in China knocks them off my list of potential car companies.

The vast, vast majority of cars made in chinese factories are made to be sold in the Chinese market. It isn't being done to build a car for cheaper and then ship it to the US, its that the Chinese market "forces" (ie, the government) require that goods sold in China be from "Chinese companies", which is why when those factories are built, even GM's factories, they are nominally owned by some local national person.

**Andrew1975**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Building a factory in China knocks them off my list of potential car companies.

The vast, vast majority of cars made in chinese factories are made to be sold in the Chinese market. It isn't being done to build a car for cheaper and then ship it to the US, its that the Chinese market "forces" (ie, the government) require that goods sold in China be from "Chinese companies", which is why when those factories are built, even GM's factories, they are nominally owned by some local national person.

That and Captain Tarrif war make it almost compulsory to build cars in China. Tesla (Shanghi) fully owns Gigagafactory 3

**Frazzled**

Good for them. Still won't buy one now.

**Andrew1975**

Frazzled wrote:
Good for them. Still won't buy one now.

So a company has to have 100% US production for global distribution for you to buy a car......thats slim pickins. What even are the options?

**Frazzled**

Andrew1975 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Good for them. Still won't buy one now.

So a company has to have 100% US production for global distribution for you to buy a car......thats slim pickins. What even are the options?

1. It has to be considered a domestic content vehicle under current NAFTA trade rules.
2. I trust the reliability of a Honda or Toyota at whole completely different levels to a Tesla. If Subaru had one that met my needs, it would be a whole level above them.

**Just Tony**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Building a factory in China knocks them off my list of potential car companies.

The vast, vast majority of cars made in chinese factories are made to be sold in the Chinese market. It isn't being done to build a car for cheaper and then ship it to the US, its that the Chinese market "forces" (ie, the government) require that goods sold in China be from "Chinese companies", which is why when those factories are built, even GM's factories, they are nominally owned by some local national person.

Caterpillar has factories in locations around the world specifically for this reason. If they have to ship a 3516 from, say, Lafayette Indiana to Indonesia, then the cost becomes prohibitive from shipping alone, and the lead time on getting that engine to the customer could cost Cat sales. The 3516 engines sold in the US, however, are American made.

Andrew1975 wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Building a factory in China knocks them off my list of potential car companies.

The vast, vast majority of cars made in chinese factories are made to be sold in the Chinese market. It isn't being done to build a car for cheaper and then ship it to the US, its that the Chinese market "forces" (ie, the government) require that goods sold in China be from "Chinese companies", which is why when those factories are built, even GM's factories, they are nominally owned by some local national person.

That and Captain Tarrif war make it almost compulsory to build cars in China. Tesla (Shanghi) fully owns Gigagafactory 3

Don't bring politics in this. At all. You need to win this debate on the merits of Tesla's failing business model, not by getting it shut down for dipping into forum rules violations.

**Frazzled**

Fair point JT.

I am not sure this has been answered already, but to re clarify - what happens with the batteries if they lose power? Who's liability is that?

**Andrew1975**

Just Tony wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Building a factory in China knocks them off my list of potential car companies.

The vast, vast majority of cars made in chinese factories are made to be sold in the Chinese market. It isn't being done to build a car for cheaper and then ship it to the US, its that the Chinese market "forces" (ie, the government) require that goods sold in China be from "Chinese companies", which is why when those factories are built, even GM's factories, they are nominally owned by some local national person.

Caterpillar has factories in locations around the world specifically for this reason. If they have to ship a 3516 from, say, Lafayette Indiana to Indonesia, then the cost becomes prohibitive from shipping alone, and the lead time on getting that engine to the customer could cost Cat sales. The 3516 engines sold in the US, however, are American made.

Andrew1975 wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Building a factory in China knocks them off my list of potential car companies.

The vast, vast majority of cars made in chinese factories are made to be sold in the Chinese market. It isn't being done to build a car for cheaper and then ship it to the US, its that the Chinese market "forces" (ie, the government) require that goods sold in China be from "Chinese companies", which is why when those factories are built, even GM's factories, they are nominally owned by some local national person.

That and Captain Tarrif war make it almost compulsory to build cars in China. Tesla (Shanghi) fully owns Gigagafactory 3

Don't bring politics in this. At all. You need to win this debate on the merits of Tesla's failing business model, not by getting it shut down for dipping into forum rules violations.

Man you have got to be a Short. Tesla is not failing. Its growing exponentially. And it is totally political. Taffis are making it so that Tesla has to build a factory in China in order to compete on price. Thats not even debatable.

**Frazzled**

Except they were building a plant before the tariff kerfluffle, but if you say so.

**Andrew1975**

Frazzled wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Good for them. Still won't buy one now.

So a company has to have 100% US production for global distribution for you to buy a car......thats slim pickins. What even are the options?

1. It has to be considered a domestic content vehicle under current NAFTA trade rules.
2. I trust the reliability of a Honda or Toyota at whole completely different levels to a Tesla. If Subaru had one that met my needs, it would be a whole level above them.

1. Ok, Well I would think Teslas would be domestic content Vehicles.
2. I can understand that, but if you look at the percentage of recalls done by Honda and Toyota...or pretty much anyone they dwarf Tesla recalls. Many of these recalls are major safety recall issues too.

3. Im not sure about other EVs but Tesla has a very good battery warranty.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Except they were building a plant before the tariff kerfluffle, but if you say so.

Really? So the trade war wasn't even on the radar in July 2018? Sure we know when the tarrifs actually started, but there was a lot of blustering before then. Its not the exclusive reason for building the factory, but with the tarrifs it would have become necessary.

**jouso**

Andrew1975 wrote:
jouso wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

They are spending tons of money building the Infrastructure and R&D. I'm not sure which news reports you are looking at. They are currently tooling for 5 New products (Semi, Truck, Y, Roadster, V3 charger), Building a factory in China. That takes a lot of cash. Not to mention retooling S and X.

I don't need to look at news, it's all in Tesla's quarterly reports.

Anything below 100 means the company is investing less than what current equipment depreciates. Q1 2019 was even lower.

OK, but that doesn't mean they aren't spending vast sums. Its just investing less than what current equipment depreciates. You have to look deeper.

Vast is a void word. Compared to my monthly salary? Yes, it's a vast amount, compared to trade volume on the NYSE is pocket change.

The statement in question is "Tesla loses money year after year because they spend everything in capex and R&D" so we have to find industry benchmarks for that.

Tesla expects to have Capex (things like superchargers, factories and tooling for new cars) at 7,8% of revenue for 2019. The figure for Volkswagen is exactly the same: 7,8%. BMW is at 7,1% so Tesla is going to spend along the lines of mature auto companies which post profits year after year. Hardly a company in a massive growth stage.

Ferrari, a company much more similar to Tesla than big auto groups like VW is at 18,5%. NIO, a Chinese electric car company is at a whopping 24,6% That's where Tesla should be if they intend to take on all those investments.

But capex is not the whole story, that still doesn't include R&D. Tesla estimated figure for R&D for Y2019 as per their own guidance is 4,9% of revenue (down from 6,8% on 2018). What's the figure for mature auto groups? 5,5% for BMW, 5,4% for VW.

Ferrari spends a whopping 18,6% and NIO is at 27,1%

So the explanation for Tesla not posting profits is absolutely not spending too much on capex or R&D. They aren't spending more than the competition yet profits are still nowhere to be found.

(Data is from this article https://seekingalpha.com/article/4243835-teslas-low-2019-capex-harm-growth-story-brand-value taken in turn from either company yearly reports)

**Frazzled**

1. Ok, Well I would think Teslas would be domestic content Vehicles.
***They may very well be. Thats my criteria, and if they make that, cool.

2. I can understand that, but if you look at the percentage of recalls done by Honda and Toyota...or pretty much anyone they dwarf Tesla recalls. Many of these recalls are major safety recall issues too.
***My boy's Honda is past the 200K mark. Tesla's have to build that quality brand benchmark. They may in the future.

3. Im not sure about other EVs but Tesla has a very good battery warranty.
***Thanks. Let me clarify. Its more of a policy question., If someone has a vehicle for 125K and they have to change out the batteries, who pays for that? Where do the batteries go? Who's liable for those batteries? With a car battery I can swap out the old battery and the old battery does not cost me anything-or I might get some money for it. How does that work? Again, this is not a criticism, but seeking info.

**Steve steveson**

Andrew1975 wrote:

2. I can understand that, but if you look at the percentage of recalls done by Honda and Toyota...or pretty much anyone they dwarf Tesla recalls. Many of these recalls are major safety recall issues too.

Are you seriously trying to claim Teslas are more reliable than Hondas or Toyotas? Tesla have been panned time and again in just about every reliability survey. If your going to try and claim otherwise I want to see the evidence, as I have plenty showing how bad they are and how good Toyota and Honda are.

**Andrew1975**

jouso wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:
jouso wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

They are spending tons of money building the Infrastructure and R&D. I'm not sure which news reports you are looking at. They are currently tooling for 5 New products (Semi, Truck, Y, Roadster, V3 charger), Building a factory in China. That takes a lot of cash. Not to mention retooling S and X.

I don't need to look at news, it's all in Tesla's quarterly reports.

Anything below 100 means the company is investing less than what current equipment depreciates. Q1 2019 was even lower.

OK, but that doesn't mean they aren't spending vast sums. Its just investing less than what current equipment depreciates. You have to look deeper.

Vast is a void word. Compared to my monthly salary? Yes, it's a vast amount, compared to trade volume on the NYSE is pocket change.

The statement in question is "Tesla loses money year after year because they spend everything in capex and R&D" so we have to find industry benchmarks for that.

Tesla expects to have Capex (things like superchargers, factories and tooling for new cars) at 7,8% of revenue for 2019. The figure for Volkswagen is exactly the same: 7,8%. BMW is at 7,1% so Tesla is going to spend along the lines of mature auto companies which post profits year after year. Hardly a company in a massive growth stage.

Ferrari, a company much more similar to Tesla than big auto groups like VW is at 18,5%. NIO, a Chinese electric car company is at a whopping 24,6% That's where Tesla should be if they intend to take on all those investments.

But capex is not the whole story, that still doesn't include R&D. Tesla estimated figure for R&D for Y2019 as per their own guidance is 4,9% of revenue (down from 6,8% on 2018). What's the figure for mature auto groups? 5,5% for BMW, 5,4% for VW.

Ferrari spends a whopping 18,6% and NIO is at 27,1%

So the explanation for Tesla not posting profits is absolutely not spending too much on capex or R&D. They aren't spending more than the competition yet profits are still nowhere to be found.

(Data is from this article https://seekingalpha.com/article/4243835-teslas-low-2019-capex-harm-growth-story-brand-value taken in turn from either company yearly reports)

Nio doesnt even have its own factory, they produce their cars using other companies space. Seeking Alpha is notoriusly anti Tesla and was home of one of its greatest shorts until Musk outed him.

Tesla's 2 biggest issues are emplacement and debt from infrastructure building. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-burns-cash/

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steve steveson wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

2. I can understand that, but if you look at the percentage of recalls done by Honda and Toyota...or pretty much anyone they dwarf Tesla recalls. Many of these recalls are major safety recall issues too.

Are you seriously trying to claim Teslas are more reliable than Hondas or Toyotas? Tesla have been panned time and again in just about every reliability survey. If your going to try and claim otherwise I want to see the evidence, as I have plenty showing how bad they are and how good Toyota and Honda are.

Cool, show me the mass recalls and major safety issues involved with Teslas. I can post plenty of honda a toyota recalls. Has Tesla had some issues with panel gaps and paint.....absolutely, but from reports those issues have been taken care of.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Andrew1975 wrote:

Really? So the trade war wasn't even on the radar in July 2018? Sure we know when the tarrifs actually started, but there was a lot of blustering before then. Its not the exclusive reason for building the factory, but with the tarrifs it would have become necessary.

Yes, really. . . . It's been this way since the 1990s at least. . . If Global companies want to do business in China, they must be "domestic" companies that are owned by Chinese Nationals.

**jouso**

Andrew1975 wrote:

Nio doesnt even have its own factory, they produce their cars using other companies space. Seeking Alpha is notoriusly anti Tesla and was home of one of its greatest shorts until Musk outed him.

Tesla's 2 biggest issues are emplacement and debt from infrastructure building. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-burns-cash/

Seeking alpha is just a place where people can write articles. You will find both pro and anti any stock articles there (Inc Tesla).

But that's shooting the messenger, the data is hard data, extracted from Tesla's own quarterly reports.

Slice it the way you want but the fact remains Tesla doesn't currently invest more than mature auto companies (as % of revenue) who do post profits year after year.

They did invest at some point in the past (hence your article about infrastructure debt) which means they can't make ends meet servicing the current debt, much less take on another massive pile of the same to fund all those projects you named before.

**Steve steveson**

Andrew1975 wrote:
jouso wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:
jouso wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

They are spending tons of money building the Infrastructure and R&D. I'm not sure which news reports you are looking at. They are currently tooling for 5 New products (Semi, Truck, Y, Roadster, V3 charger), Building a factory in China. That takes a lot of cash. Not to mention retooling S and X.

I don't need to look at news, it's all in Tesla's quarterly reports.

Anything below 100 means the company is investing less than what current equipment depreciates. Q1 2019 was even lower.

OK, but that doesn't mean they aren't spending vast sums. Its just investing less than what current equipment depreciates. You have to look deeper.

Vast is a void word. Compared to my monthly salary? Yes, it's a vast amount, compared to trade volume on the NYSE is pocket change.

The statement in question is "Tesla loses money year after year because they spend everything in capex and R&D" so we have to find industry benchmarks for that.

Tesla expects to have Capex (things like superchargers, factories and tooling for new cars) at 7,8% of revenue for 2019. The figure for Volkswagen is exactly the same: 7,8%. BMW is at 7,1% so Tesla is going to spend along the lines of mature auto companies which post profits year after year. Hardly a company in a massive growth stage.

Ferrari, a company much more similar to Tesla than big auto groups like VW is at 18,5%. NIO, a Chinese electric car company is at a whopping 24,6% That's where Tesla should be if they intend to take on all those investments.

But capex is not the whole story, that still doesn't include R&D. Tesla estimated figure for R&D for Y2019 as per their own guidance is 4,9% of revenue (down from 6,8% on 2018). What's the figure for mature auto groups? 5,5% for BMW, 5,4% for VW.

Ferrari spends a whopping 18,6% and NIO is at 27,1%

So the explanation for Tesla not posting profits is absolutely not spending too much on capex or R&D. They aren't spending more than the competition yet profits are still nowhere to be found.

(Data is from this article https://seekingalpha.com/article/4243835-teslas-low-2019-capex-harm-growth-story-brand-value taken in turn from either company yearly reports)

Nio doesnt even have its own factory, they produce their cars using other companies space. Seeking Alpha is notoriusly anti Tesla and was home of one of its greatest shorts until Musk outed him.

Tesla's 2 biggest issues are emplacement and debt from infrastructure building. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-burns-cash/

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steve steveson wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

2. I can understand that, but if you look at the percentage of recalls done by Honda and Toyota...or pretty much anyone they dwarf Tesla recalls. Many of these recalls are major safety recall issues too.

Are you seriously trying to claim Teslas are more reliable than Hondas or Toyotas? Tesla have been panned time and again in just about every reliability survey. If your going to try and claim otherwise I want to see the evidence, as I have plenty showing how bad they are and how good Toyota and Honda are.

Cool, show me the mass recalls and major safety issues involved with Teslas. I can post plenty of honda a toyota recalls. Has Tesla had some issues with panel gaps and paint.....absolutely, but from reports those issues have been taken care of.

Reliability is not the same as recalls, but since you ask:

https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/17/tesla-to-recall-14000-model-s-cars-in-china-over-faulty-takata-airbags/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_cs=dfhpY2AXZ2clnddA-XNr2A

“China’s top market regulator said on Friday that Tesla will recall a total of 14,123 imported Model S vehicles in the country over potentially deadly airbags.”

https://www.tesla.com/support/models-steering-assist-motor-bolt-recall

“In order to ensure the safety of our customers, Tesla will proactively retrofit a power steering component in all Model S vehicles built before April 2016.”

https://www.tesla.com/support/model-s-safety-update

https://www.tesla.com/support/model-s-seat-belt-inspection
“Tesla found a Model S in Europe with a front seat belt that was not properly connected to the outboard lap pretensioner. This vehicle was not involved in a crash and there were no injuries.
However, in the event of a crash, a seat belt in this condition would not provide full protection.”

https://www.cars.com/research/tesla/recalls/
“Tesla, Inc. (Tesla) is recalling certain 2016 Model S and Model X vehicles. The electric parking brake calipers have an internal gear that may be improperly manufactured, possibly resulting in the gear fracturing during parking brake application or release.

Consequence
If the gear breaks during parking brake release, the vehicle will not be able to be moved. If the gear breaks during parking brake application, the parking brake may not adequately hold the vehicle, potentially resulting in the vehicle rolling, increasing the risk of a crash.”

Now, where is the evidence of Teslas being more reliable?

I have this:

https://www.businessinsider.com/survey-uk-drivers-say-tesla-model-s-most-unreliable-car-2018-9?r=US&IR=T
“The Tesla Model S came in last in a major survey ranking cars by how reliable they are”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeanbaptiste/2018/10/26/tesla-cars-may-be-the-safest-in-america-but-fail-in-reliability-consumer-reports/
“Tesla Cars May Be The Safest In America, But Fail In Reliability: Consumer Reports”

https://www.designnews.com/electronics-test/tesla-vehicles-fare-poorly-reliability-survey/52515483460406
“Tesla Vehicles Fare Poorly in Reliability Survey
Performance is good, owner satisfaction is high, but Consumer Reports holds back on recommending the Model 3, S, and X.”

**Just Tony**

Andrew1975 wrote:Man you have got to be a Short.

Clarify, please. What is a "Short"?

Andrew1975 wrote:Tesla is not failing. Its growing exponentially.

What Tesla is doing is spending capital for expansion before it's even turned a profit on current production. Other car brands established their footing before exploding. Exponential growth without a proper food source causes organisms to collapse and die. Guess what? Same applies to car companies fronted by unstable stoners.

Andrew1975 wrote:And it is totally political. Taffis are making it so that Tesla has to build a factory in China in order to compete on price. Thats not even debatable.

Political discussion on this site is prohibited. Period. Once again, you're going to get this thread locked. I sincerely don't want that to happen because you could potentially get the last word in simply because of the time of lock, and you'll go around thinking that you were successful in your "argument".

**Andrew1975**

Serioulsy I've never seen a thread on Dakka get shut down because of a general discussion on politics. You are overstating the ban on Political talk. Its only when it turns into a gak show. Tarrifs are a legitimate business concern.

You just love being wrong about stuff.

"nor is any thread that could have some political implication going to be immediately locked on sight. There is not a simple black and white distinction to be drawn here but common sense will suffice in almost all cases. Consider what most people would find appropriate to discuss in a game store open to the public, where you are likely to be around people you don't know very well. People go there to relax and have fun. If saying something about politics or religion in that situation would make it awkward and uncomfortable for others (for example, causing a heated argument likely to get personal) then don't post it on Dakka Dakka. "

People have been calling for Teslas death for years.....hasn't happened yet. Now that they are growing and making better products.....its unlikely to happen.

Thats a huge list of Recalls alright. Huge how may vehicles do you think were affected in total? Also most of those are for cars produced in between 2014-2016, not the most recent versions. Telsa absolutely had teething issues, even with the model 3 they had fit and finish issues. These have been addressed and fixed. This is pretty common with new models of cars EVEN FROM HONDA AND TOYOTA!

I'm not really sure how panel gaps and paint issues make a car less reliable. But if thats the criteria for consumer reports fine, but lets not pretend its dangerous. Is it an issue, sure and its been addressed according to resent 3rd party reports.

Teslas are ranked the safest cars in their classes, auto pilot has saved plenty of lives, the car is pretty much unstealable, Sentry mode has caught people hitting or otherwise damaging the car. Yes the car is not perfect, very few are. I've been in cars that cost more that were worse in every way. The cars are not perfect, but the magnifier that is on Tesla is pretty ridiculous. But thats ok. Tesla didnt raise the bar on EVs....it is the Bar by which all other EVs are judged, and by which all ICE cars will soon be judged. So of course being the leader is going to bring a certain amount of attention and extra scrutiny. I'd like to see other companies step up, but pretty much they all fall short. I am interested in what the Polestar will do...but Im not impressed with the numbers so far.

I could list them out like you did....but it would just be an ungainly wall of text....oh right spoiler tags. Now truthfully this is just US recalls, but if we go globally....I think it probably only gets worse for Honda and Toyota.

Now to be fair, every car I've ever owned (except my Tesla) has had a recall, mostly for minor things, but many of these Toyota and Honda recalls are pretty frightening. You'd think companies that have been making cars for so long would be able to get it right by now. Also to be fair Honda and Toyota are pretty good. The GM and Ford recall pages are giant!

https://www.edmunds.com/recalls/toyota.html

Spoiler:

https://www.edmunds.com/recalls/honda.html

Spoiler:

Let me know when you are done scrolling!

Now look at this no spoiler tag needed.....its 2 https://www.edmunds.com/recalls/tesla.html

You like SUVs https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-x-perfect-safety-crash-test-rating-2019-2 The Tesla Model X was the first car to receive a perfect safety rating from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

Sets New NHTSA Vehicle Safety Score Record. Palo Alto, CA — Independent testing by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has awarded the Tesla Model S a 5-star safety rating, not just overall, but in every subcategory without exception.

https://electrek.co/2018/09/20/tesla-model-3-5-star-safety-rating-nhtsa/

Many cars achieve an overall 5-star rating, but it is a little more rare for cars to get 5 stars in every category tested by NHTSA. Its even more rare for a company to get that rating for every car currently in production!

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Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

Really? So the trade war wasn't even on the radar in July 2018? Sure we know when the tarrifs actually started, but there was a lot of blustering before then. Its not the exclusive reason for building the factory, but with the tarrifs it would have become necessary.

Yes, really. . . . It's been this way since the 1990s at least. . . If Global companies want to do business in China, they must be "domestic" companies that are owned by Chinese Nationals.

Nope https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2154674/tesla-build-its-gigafactory-shanghai-capacity-produce-500000-cars Tesla fully owns Gigafactory 3 "Tesla will set up its first overseas assembly in China’s premier commercial city, establishing a beach head in the world’s largest vehicle market even as a trade war simmers between Washington and Beijing.The Palo Alto, California-based carmaker will establish its Gigafactory 3 at Lingang near Shanghai’s free-trade zone, with an annual capacity to produce 500,000 electric vehicles, according to an announcement. The wholly foreign-owned plant – the first car plant in China to operate without a local partner "

Thanks for playing though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

Nio doesnt even have its own factory, they produce their cars using other companies space. Seeking Alpha is notoriusly anti Tesla and was home of one of its greatest shorts until Musk outed him.

Tesla's 2 biggest issues are emplacement and debt from infrastructure building. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-burns-cash/

Seeking alpha is just a place where people can write articles. You will find both pro and anti any stock articles there (Inc Tesla).

But that's shooting the messenger, the data is hard data, extracted from Tesla's own quarterly reports.

Slice it the way you want but the fact remains Tesla doesn't currently invest more than mature auto companies (as % of revenue) who do post profits year after year.

They did invest at some point in the past (hence your article about infrastructure debt) which means they can't make ends meet servicing the current debt, much less take on another massive pile of the same to fund all those projects you named before.

Meh, Tesla has always been different. Q2 deliveries look promising. That would make it 3 out of 4 quarters with a profit. Elon has a high tolerance for risk and is a long game player. Their stock says it all, even depressed right not at about $200 its way over punching its weight. You either get Teslas vision or you don't. Tesla has never really had problems raising cash because enough people get it. Without Tesla, US auto would be screwed.....where would they buy their offsets from? Bye Bye Hellcats!

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Frazzled wrote:

1. Ok, Well I would think Teslas would be domestic content Vehicles.
***They may very well be. Thats my criteria, and if they make that, cool.

2. I can understand that, but if you look at the percentage of recalls done by Honda and Toyota...or pretty much anyone they dwarf Tesla recalls. Many of these recalls are major safety recall issues too.
***My boy's Honda is past the 200K mark. Tesla's have to build that quality brand benchmark. They may in the future.

3. Im not sure about other EVs but Tesla has a very good battery warranty.
***Thanks. Let me clarify. Its more of a policy question., If someone has a vehicle for 125K and they have to change out the batteries, who pays for that? Where do the batteries go? Who's liable for those batteries? With a car battery I can swap out the old battery and the old battery does not cost me anything-or I might get some money for it. How does that work? Again, this is not a criticism, but seeking info.

https://electrek.co/2019/04/16/tesla-battery-recycling-system/ This might answer some of your questions.

What does a new out of warranty battery cost....ive seen reports between 30k and 8K.....30k sounds excessive, 8k sounds large, some reports say because they are individual cells you can just replace the bad ones fo $1 per cell, other articles say you have to replace them in bundles...it might depend on the model....i don't know. Its not been too much of an issue yet as Telsa batteries and battery management are very good. As the first cars hit a decade will it become a problem, i don't know. Tesloop doesnt seem to think so and they are a third party company that has put tons of miles on the cars running them as taxis.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Andrew1975 wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

Really? So the trade war wasn't even on the radar in July 2018? Sure we know when the tarrifs actually started, but there was a lot of blustering before then. Its not the exclusive reason for building the factory, but with the tarrifs it would have become necessary.

Yes, really. . . . It's been this way since the 1990s at least. . . If Global companies want to do business in China, they must be "domestic" companies that are owned by Chinese Nationals.

Nope https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2154674/tesla-build-its-gigafactory-shanghai-capacity-produce-500000-cars Tesla fully owns Gigafactory 3 "Tesla will set up its first overseas assembly in China’s premier commercial city, establishing a beach head in the world’s largest vehicle market even as a trade war simmers between Washington and Beijing.The Palo Alto, California-based carmaker will establish its Gigafactory 3 at Lingang near Shanghai’s free-trade zone, with an annual capacity to produce 500,000 electric vehicles, according to an announcement. The wholly foreign-owned plant – the first car plant in China to operate without a local partner "

Thanks for playing though.

That is news to me, and clearly a sign that China is changing more and more policies. . . . Doesn't make you right about much else. . . And frankly, I'm done engaging with you, as your attitude and bizarre need to defend Tesla when the entire thread is about EVs, not Tesla alone is tiresome and old.

**Steve steveson**

Wow! What a surprise! Company that makes 10million cars a year across 51 models has more recalls than a brand that produces 50000 across 3.

Also, you listed the same fault multiple times, including the same airbag fault that Tesla had, lots of non safety stuff, stuff Tesla have ignored, and lots of cars where it says there are no recalls.

You stated that Tesla had no safety critical recalls. I gave you 4. You can’t dismiss them because they were for 2016 cars. Those were dated 2018 & 2019, showing that there has simply not been time to find issues on newer cars.

Seriously, this is just refusal to accept reality. Show me one thing showing Teslas are reliable. I can’t find a single report anywhere saying anything other than Teslas being unreliable.

Want to dismiss consumer reports, here:

https://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20180308.html

Tesla spend twice as much as Ford on warrantee work. Any way you cut it Teslas are not reliable cars. You can keep hand waving it away, but everyone else can see how your dismissing facts.

Please stop the bad faith arguments.

**Andrew1975**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

Really? So the trade war wasn't even on the radar in July 2018? Sure we know when the tarrifs actually started, but there was a lot of blustering before then. Its not the exclusive reason for building the factory, but with the tarrifs it would have become necessary.

Yes, really. . . . It's been this way since the 1990s at least. . . If Global companies want to do business in China, they must be "domestic" companies that are owned by Chinese Nationals.

Nope https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2154674/tesla-build-its-gigafactory-shanghai-capacity-produce-500000-cars Tesla fully owns Gigafactory 3 "Tesla will set up its first overseas assembly in China’s premier commercial city, establishing a beach head in the world’s largest vehicle market even as a trade war simmers between Washington and Beijing.The Palo Alto, California-based carmaker will establish its Gigafactory 3 at Lingang near Shanghai’s free-trade zone, with an annual capacity to produce 500,000 electric vehicles, according to an announcement. The wholly foreign-owned plant – the first car plant in China to operate without a local partner "

Thanks for playing though.

That is news to me, and clearly a sign that China is changing more and more policies. . . . Doesn't make you right about much else. . . And frankly, I'm done engaging with you, as your attitude and bizarre need to defend Tesla when the entire thread is about EVs, not Tesla alone is tiresome and old.

Cool, look I Said EVs are good, Teslas are the best of the bunch, and are currently the only EV capable of being the primary/sole vehicle for the average family. Most of them lack the range and charging ability to replace ICE cars 100% of the time for most people. Most EVs cant compete with the flexibility advantage that Ice cars currently hold. From there it was a dog pile on Tesla. I simply defended my opinion and set the record straight. The amount of misinformation presented here on EVs and Teslas is pretty crazy, obviously EV companies need to to better educate the general public. However, Don't start none, won't be none. I could say many peoples attitude and bizarre need to attack Tesla is tiresome and old....and ignorant. But most EV and Tesla people are used to this.

Chinas policy changed 1 because of agreements with the WTO, 2 Elon would not have it any other way, 3 China can't sell cars globally, well they can but nobody wants them because they are crap. Because of that they are desperate to corner the market on EVs, the amount of spys they will send into the gigafactory to learn how to dominate EVs will be substantial! There is no doubt that EVs are the future, the US in its typical behavior is doing everything they can to stall EVS.....China is doing the polar opposite.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Andrew1975 wrote:

Chinas policy changed 1 because of agreements with the WTO, 2 Elon would not have it any other way, 3 China can't sell cars globally, well they can but nobody wants them because they are crap. Because of that they are desperate to corner the market on EVs, the amount of spys they will send into the gigafactory to learn how to dominate EVs will be substantial! There is no doubt that EVs are the future, the US in its typical behavior is doing everything they can to stall EVS.....China is doing the polar opposite.

So wait a minute. . . you're saying that Elon Musk's puny, insignificant company has greater power than GM did when they entered the Chinese market??? Wow, I'd love to live in that fairytale world.

**Andrew1975**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

Chinas policy changed 1 because of agreements with the WTO, 2 Elon would not have it any other way, 3 China can't sell cars globally, well they can but nobody wants them because they are crap. Because of that they are desperate to corner the market on EVs, the amount of spys they will send into the gigafactory to learn how to dominate EVs will be substantial! There is no doubt that EVs are the future, the US in its typical behavior is doing everything they can to stall EVS.....China is doing the polar opposite.

So wait a minute. . . you're saying that Elon Musk's puny, insignificant company has greater power than GM did when they entered the Chinese market??? Wow, I'd love to live in that fairytale world.

Funny, I thought you weren't engaging anymore. And yes I'm saying that. GM is old tech, and its not even good old tech. China has its eyes on the prize which is EVs....you know the tech that GM started and shortsightedly killed. What could china learn from them? How to lose an advantage? How to destroy your global dominating market share by building gag cars and letting little Japanese cars show you up?

You could take my word for it....or you could read the article. China initially insisted on the classic 50 percent ownership.....but gave in to Elon when he said no.