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 Kilkrazy wrote:
Shelby Cobra.

All hail the God of Cars!

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Shelby Cobra.

All hail the God of Cars!

Really is. . . Read an article just the other day about how if it hadn't been for the *ahem* issues . . . of the Cobra on the road, we likely wouldn't have been graced with the Shelby Daytona (and it doing amazing things at Le Mans), which in turn led to Mr. Carroll Shelby being contacted to help develop the GT40.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
I'm a yank, and I've definitely heard of WhatCar, as well as a number of other overseas auto publications. But then, I AM a bit of an oddball petrolhead in the US in that I prefer proper sports cars (as in cars that are designed to make high speed turns, unlike most US "sports" cars that are designed for the standing 1/4 mile)

What US "sports cars" are you talking about? The classic US sports cars are the Chevy Corvette and Dodge Viper (if it returns) and they both go round corners pretty fast. The Mustang and Camaro are "pony cars", not sure if they fall under the "sports car" heading, but modern variants of the Mustang and Camaro get praised as being pretty good track cars, even tracks that have corners.

I think it's mostly the Dodge muscle cars that aren't too good through the twisties and seem to be focusing on 1/4 mile times with the Hellcat and Demon.

When you look at the street versions of cars, a lot of the US sports cars get panned heavily by motoring journalists for their handling (when compared to their Euro/Asian counterparts). Sure, the purpose-built Corvettes competed fairly well at Le Mans. It wasn't until the most recent generation of Vettes (with the ZR.1 variant) that nearly everyone loved the handling abilities of the Vette. When the Corvette first came out in the 50s and 60s yeah, it was certainly one of the top sports cars around, and one of the better "weekend warrior" racers out there. . . Then technology moved on and by the 70s, 80s and through the early 2000s, the Corvette continued on with the same mindset of those early years. As a result, you may see them on a track day event, but they weren't major contenders for major races (a la, Le Mans, 24 hours of Daytona, etc)

And yeah, Dodge has for quite a while been all bout that pure straight line speed. And while Pony Cars are certainly a type of car, I personally would consider them to be a subset under the "sports car" umbrella because they were originally designed to be the "poor man's racer" and helped kick off the muscle car 'thing' in the US.

I think you and I have slightly different views on Corvettes of the past (and I'm sure I'm not biased by the fact I own a '71 ), I think they've always been reasonably fast relative to the competition. They've always been low to the ground, had close to a 50/50 weight distribution, relatively big tyres and decently fast suspension set ups.

What happens in races like Le Mans and 24 hours Daytona doesn't really mean much because the cars are so heavily modified (if not built from the ground up) that they don't bear much resemblance to their street going counterparts. Even going back to the C2 Corvette Grand Sport (that was entirely built from the ground up, even had a thinner fibreglass body to save weight) and the C3 L88 Corvette that raced at Le Mans in the late 60's (which was reasonably similar to the street version, but still had a stiffer chassis and some 200hp more than street variants).

The late 60's and early 70's vettes had 4 wheel disk brakes and independent rear suspension (which was an oddity for a high powered street car back then), the late 70's were a bit sluggish but so were all sports cars in the late 70's, the 80's saw the C4 which could go round corners like crazy (though did have a somewhat spongy chassis, it was still competitive and even now doesn't take much modification to turn it in to a car that will tear up a race track), the C5 and C6 again had pretty impressive cornering ability, fixed a lot of the issues the C4 had and the LS engines provided some good reliable power (I've gotten to drive a C5 Z06 and loved it).

Even now if you ask the question "What are the best track cars you can get on a budget?", the C4, C5, C6 and C7 Vettes will inevitably make the list. The low centre of gravity, 50/50 weight balance and small block chevy make any of them a good starting platform (if not good out of the box).

One gripe I've heard over the years that has been fixed more recently with the C7 is the steering ratio, older C5's had passenger-car-like steering ratios so you had to turn the wheel a long way relative to other sports cars. But that didn't really slow them down, and was something you'd get used if you actually owned one, it's just the steering felt a bit laborious if you'd just jumped out of another sports car. You could of course just throw a faster steering rack in one of those older Corvettes and it was problem solved.

People have long complained Corvettes are unrefined, I think half of that is because of the muscle car engine maybe gives people more than they're expecting and partly the cheaper construction compared to significantly more expensive Euro cars.

I haven't been a Corvette lover all my life, but I started to notice them when they were getting harshly reviewed versus Euro cars only to find the Euro cars were significantly more expensive. I think it says good things when you can't find cars in the same price range to compare it against.

But I digress, I think Muricans make decent sports cars when they want to make sports cars. Shoving a big motor in a sedan isn't really a "sports car" in my book, but even the modern pony cars handle pretty damned good.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I haven't been a Corvette lover all my life, but I started to notice them when they were getting harshly reviewed versus Euro cars only to find the Euro cars were significantly more expensive. I think it says good things when you can't find cars in the same price range to compare it against.

But I digress, I think Muricans make decent sports cars when they want to make sports cars. Shoving a big motor in a sedan isn't really a "sports car" in my book, but even the modern pony cars handle pretty damned good.

For the bits I didn't directly quote: I must've been mentally mixing up cars and car reviews because for some reason I was "remembering" that Vettes had solid axles throughout the 80s and into the 90s, but clearly I am wrong on that point.


IMO, the latest generation of Vette (especially the ZR1) and the Vettes from around 1967 and earlier look the best. . . A little while ago I was playing around on the Chevy website, and "built" a Corvette ZR1 in the 3ZR trim, which rounded out to about 145k USD. I then went to the Porsche website doing the same with the 911, and I personally cannot help but think, if I'm gonna drop over 140 grand on a brand new car meant for track day events/amateur races, that I would rather spend it on a Porsche. Now don't get me wrong, I'd still love to have this latest gen Vette, so if the deciding factor was delivery time or something like that, I'd be more than happy with the decision.

IMHO, Le Mans is still extremely important to the auto industry. Yes you are right that most cars, even the GT classes are often built from the ground up for those races. However Le Mans is still sort of the world's prototype testing grounds: the vast majority of automotive improvements have come out of endurance racing. I think it was a commentator during this years race, or maybe last years, who said something like "with the exception of heated and massaging seats" (because obviously, how does a heated or massaging seat help a car go faster, run longer or anything like that?). At the same time, I was already saying that we can discount the exact specimens we saw on track as they are not 100% the one you buy off the showroom floor of the local dealer


And I somewhat agree with you on the mere shoving a bigger engine thing. . . An "M-Line" BMW isn't a sports car, while IMO an M5 is.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I haven't been a Corvette lover all my life, but I started to notice them when they were getting harshly reviewed versus Euro cars only to find the Euro cars were significantly more expensive. I think it says good things when you can't find cars in the same price range to compare it against.

But I digress, I think Muricans make decent sports cars when they want to make sports cars. Shoving a big motor in a sedan isn't really a "sports car" in my book, but even the modern pony cars handle pretty damned good.

For the bits I didn't directly quote: I must've been mentally mixing up cars and car reviews because for some reason I was "remembering" that Vettes had solid axles throughout the 80s and into the 90s, but clearly I am wrong on that point.


IMO, the latest generation of Vette (especially the ZR1) and the Vettes from around 1967 and earlier look the best. . . A little while ago I was playing around on the Chevy website, and "built" a Corvette ZR1 in the 3ZR trim, which rounded out to about 145k USD. I then went to the Porsche website doing the same with the 911, and I personally cannot help but think, if I'm gonna drop over 140 grand on a brand new car meant for track day events/amateur races, that I would rather spend it on a Porsche. Now don't get me wrong, I'd still love to have this latest gen Vette, so if the deciding factor was delivery time or something like that, I'd be more than happy with the decision.

IMHO, Le Mans is still extremely important to the auto industry. Yes you are right that most cars, even the GT classes are often built from the ground up for those races. However Le Mans is still sort of the world's prototype testing grounds: the vast majority of automotive improvements have come out of endurance racing. I think it was a commentator during this years race, or maybe last years, who said something like "with the exception of heated and massaging seats" (because obviously, how does a heated or massaging seat help a car go faster, run longer or anything like that?). At the same time, I was already saying that we can discount the exact specimens we saw on track as they are not 100% the one you buy off the showroom floor of the local dealer


And I somewhat agree with you on the mere shoving a bigger engine thing. . . An "M-Line" BMW isn't a sports car, while IMO an M5 is.

In full disclosure I am a Challenger owner and enthusiast, but all around car guy, so if any bias shows through its not intentional

Not to go too far off topic here but:

Dodge is putting out exactly what they advertise, a muscle car. It goes fast in a straight line, handles "ok" when you start throwing the new wide body models around the corners, and stuffing big V8 Hemi engines between the front wheels.

Chevrolet has done wonders with the Camaro in both speed and cornering capabilities but I wouldn't call it a muscle car any more, more of a purpose built sports car. I don't know what the hell Ford is doing with the Mustang. The GT does ok in a straight line and ok in the corners but it seems to be a more all around car, and of course the GT350/500 variants are quick, but it feels like they are trying to play catch up to the Camaro ZL1. Don't get me started on the turbo 4 cylinder models, it just doesn't sound right (both literally and figuratively).

Meanwhile Dodge is over here making cars that are crazy fast on the strip with the Demon and Hellcat, with the Hellcat being faster than the Demon with minor mods (other than needing to buy/install a cage as soon as they dip into the 9's). There is, of course, the exception for the Dodge Viper ACR, which ran a 7:01.3 on the Nürburgring (yeah I know the ring isn't the end all be all, but a great benchmark none-the-less when talking about cars that can take a corner), which is about 4 seconds faster than the Porsche 911 GT3 RS which is pretty astounding. I read a story about a guy that had to transport his ACR on an open trailer because his enclosed trailer had some issue, and his mpg dropped by about 3 due to the downforce the aero kit on the Viper was generating while at freeway speed lol. This isn't to say that the Camaro and Mustang cant hold their own at the strip, but they seem to be more at home on a road course and driving around town respectively.

Anyway, more on topic, my wife has fallen in love with the electric VW throwback bus they are talking about releasing in 2022, so in a few years we may own one of those if the cost isn't astronomical... Edit: The I.D. Buzz

IronWarLeg wrote:

Anyway, more on topic, my wife has fallen in love with the electric VW throwback bus they are talking about releasing in 2022, so in a few years we may own one of those if the cost isn't astronomical... Edit: The I.D. Buzz

Pardon the pun, but the buzz around automotive media with the VW bus is rather impressive. I tried doing a project on them during my final semester of MBA because of the amount of financial press coverage they are getting right now, for a vehicle that will not be released as a general public passenger vehicle for a few years yet. . . Though, unless they've changed things, VW is apparently releasing a "Transit Van" version of the new bus specifically aimed at work vehicles. Frankly, I think that is a near perfect place to be getting an EV in. In my area, I don't think the typical work van would get anywhere near its single-charge range, and they generally are parked in a lock-up/facility of some kind, so the business would 'simply' need to add charging points. As more charging points are installed all over urban areas, the usefulness of an electric work-van increases as well. Especially if they are being purchased by companies wherein you're parking the vehicle and doing work for an hour or more (ie, most of the skilled trades)

When I bought my Leaf, the dealership had a fleet of 15 electric Nissan vans sitting in their back lot waiting to be delivered to a local government department. I think that department had come to the same conclusion about the usefulness of electric for their purposes. The vans would likely travel no more than 50 miles a day on average, have secure parking overnight and also tend to be used in local council facilities during the day, so the council is committing to adding extra charging points in those locations, which is helpful for regular EV owners too. I'd expect to see more local government departments doing the same in the near future and if I were a business owner with a fleet of vans I'd be considering the benefits too.

Tesla demand issues

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/02/tesla-q2-2019-production-and-delivery-numbers.html

Tesla needs to catch up on Toyota for quality https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-inverters-recall-20190702-story.html

Or Mazda https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/mazda3-recall-hatchbacks-sedans-wheels-might-fall-off/

American Muscle cars are notorious for chasing 0-60 times and not handling the best. At one time this could be blamed on poor tire technology.....but not anymore. The newest corvettes are more of and exception as they perform pretty well.

You make it sound like it is an unintended consequence of a badly written software upgrade.

It is not, it is a deliberate software patch to solve a hardware issue, namely that Tesla batteries develop a fire risk if you push them too hard or supercharge them too often.

In the past Tesla would have reached out to you and just replaced the battery pack proactively like on the famous 400.000 mile Tesla that had its pack replaced twice under warranty.

https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/

That was a completely abused battery,,,,even the source admits it. You can not run a Tesla 24 hour a day and just fully charge it for 400K miles and not expect to see some battery degradation. That problem is caused by continuous running of the battery to a very low state of charge and then charging it to 100% on a supercharger....its pure abuse and something not seen except in exceptionally heavy fleet use such as Tesloop. What is amazing is that Tesla still honors the warranty far after ICE cars would have run out of miles. The best warranty out there right now is VW with 72K miles......Tesla guarantees its batteries for 10 years. Tesloop estimates they will get to 1 million miles on some of their cars before the 10 year warranty expires!......thats incredible!

That is not the same issue as the Model S update which is just a software bug, and if it isn't......thats what warranty and recalls are for. It still only affected a very small percentage of one model of their cars.....you are blowing this out of proportion.

Lets see how your average ICE engine is after 400K miles....how much horsepower do they lose? Now how about an abused ICE engine?

Mate, his veiws aren't really all that valid even considering the US-Centric views. . . I mean, lets take his favorite "unbiased" source. It's straight up a pro-tesla site, and they make no bones about it.

I've used quite a lot of sources....the only one I really don't use is seeking Alpha....they are all short garbage all the time.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Tesla demand issues

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/02/tesla-q2-2019-production-and-delivery-numbers.html

Yup. Despite being offered for the whole quarter and adding lower priced models. Over 10% less model 3 sold in Europe. For S and X it's even worse.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

You make it sound like it is an unintended consequence of a badly written software upgrade.

It is not, it is a deliberate software patch to solve a hardware issue, namely that Tesla batteries develop a fire risk if you push them too hard or supercharge them too often.

In the past Tesla would have reached out to you and just replaced the battery pack proactively like on the famous 400.000 mile Tesla that had its pack replaced twice under warranty.

https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/

That was a completely abused battery,,,,even the source admits it. You can not run a Tesla 24 hour a day and just fully charge it for 400K miles and not expect to see some battery degradation. That problem is caused by continuous running of the battery to a very low state of charge and then charging it to 100% on a supercharger....its pure abuse and something not seen except in exceptionally heavy fleet use such as Tesloop. What is amazing is that Tesla still honors the warranty far after ICE cars would have run out of miles. The best warranty out there right now is VW with 72K miles......Tesla guarantees its batteries for 10 years. Tesloop estimates they will get to 1 million miles on some of their cars before the 10 year warranty expires!......thats incredible!

I don't think you're following the conversation. My point is Tesla in the past would honor their battery warranty despite the battery being abused.

Nowadays they'll cut range though software and tell you to go pound sand. Your battery is perfectly normal thank you very much. Even on cars run on perfectly normal use patterns.

jouso wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Tesla demand issues

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/02/tesla-q2-2019-production-and-delivery-numbers.html

Yup. Despite being offered for the whole quarter and adding lower priced models. Over 10% less model 3 sold in Europe. For S and X it's even worse.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

You make it sound like it is an unintended consequence of a badly written software upgrade.

It is not, it is a deliberate software patch to solve a hardware issue, namely that Tesla batteries develop a fire risk if you push them too hard or supercharge them too often.

In the past Tesla would have reached out to you and just replaced the battery pack proactively like on the famous 400.000 mile Tesla that had its pack replaced twice under warranty.

https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/

That was a completely abused battery,,,,even the source admits it. You can not run a Tesla 24 hour a day and just fully charge it for 400K miles and not expect to see some battery degradation. That problem is caused by continuous running of the battery to a very low state of charge and then charging it to 100% on a supercharger....its pure abuse and something not seen except in exceptionally heavy fleet use such as Tesloop. What is amazing is that Tesla still honors the warranty far after ICE cars would have run out of miles. The best warranty out there right now is VW with 72K miles......Tesla guarantees its batteries for 10 years. Tesloop estimates they will get to 1 million miles on some of their cars before the 10 year warranty expires!......thats incredible!

I don't think you're following the conversation. My point is Tesla in the past would honor their battery warranty despite the battery being abused.

Nowadays they'll cut range though software and tell you to go pound sand. Your battery is perfectly normal thank you very much. Even on cars run on perfectly normal use patterns.

Ha, look The company delivered 95,200 vehicles, producing 87,048 cars. You can't sell what isn't available to sell. They actually sold more cars then they produced this quarter, there are over 7500 already sold in transit that will go to Q3 numbers! Once the Chinese factory is built they wont have to ship cars to china, which means more for everyone else. For everyone that says my views are American centric (they are not they are global) yours are completely focused only on Europe.

Tesla will still honor the warranty, if they believe they need to. Right now they are planning on handling it with updates that will restore the performance back to normal once they figure out how to do it safely. They are already going well above and beyond what other car manufacturers offer. Do you have any data as to how many cars were even affected? And whether they were being abused or not......I don't think you do. Try not to make stuff up.

Whats the I pace and Etron numbers looking like in Q2?

 Andrew1975 wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Tesla demand issues

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/02/tesla-q2-2019-production-and-delivery-numbers.html

Yup. Despite being offered for the whole quarter and adding lower priced models. Over 10% less model 3 sold in Europe. For S and X it's even worse.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

You make it sound like it is an unintended consequence of a badly written software upgrade.

It is not, it is a deliberate software patch to solve a hardware issue, namely that Tesla batteries develop a fire risk if you push them too hard or supercharge them too often.

In the past Tesla would have reached out to you and just replaced the battery pack proactively like on the famous 400.000 mile Tesla that had its pack replaced twice under warranty.

https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/

That was a completely abused battery,,,,even the source admits it. You can not run a Tesla 24 hour a day and just fully charge it for 400K miles and not expect to see some battery degradation. That problem is caused by continuous running of the battery to a very low state of charge and then charging it to 100% on a supercharger....its pure abuse and something not seen except in exceptionally heavy fleet use such as Tesloop. What is amazing is that Tesla still honors the warranty far after ICE cars would have run out of miles. The best warranty out there right now is VW with 72K miles......Tesla guarantees its batteries for 10 years. Tesloop estimates they will get to 1 million miles on some of their cars before the 10 year warranty expires!......thats incredible!

I don't think you're following the conversation. My point is Tesla in the past would honor their battery warranty despite the battery being abused.

Nowadays they'll cut range though software and tell you to go pound sand. Your battery is perfectly normal thank you very much. Even on cars run on perfectly normal use patterns.

Ha, look The company delivered 95,200 vehicles, producing 87,048 cars. You can't sell what isn't available to sell. They actually sold more cars then they produced this quarter, there are over 7500 already sold in transit that will go to Q3 numbers! Once the Chinese factory is built they wont have to ship cars to china, which means more for everyone else. For everyone that says my views are American centric (they are not they are global) yours are completely focused only on Europe.

Tesla never ran out of stock in Europe, and this is the first quarter where the model 3 was available for the whole quarter. Yet deliveries fell and average price plunged.

Wait until Q2 earnings and you'll see.

Tesla will still honor the warranty, if they believe they need to. Right now they are planning on handling it with updates that will restore the performance back to normal once they figure out how to do it safely. They are already going well above and beyond what other car manufacturers offer. Do you have any data as to how many cars were even affected? And whether they were being abused or not......I don't think you do. Try not to make stuff up.

Check the thread at TMC where they're preparing a class action. You can also check the class action going on at #Teslapaintissues

Whats the I pace and Etron numbers looking like in Q2?

iPace sold roughly the same units as S & X combined.

E-tron comfortably outsold S & X combined (btw, average price for etron was higher than model S, lower than model X). In some countries like the Netherlands e-tron sold twice as much as S&X combined.

Lets see since the last update Tesla has gotten back its Consumer report rating, has finished a factory in China, is planning on building one in Germany. Demand is still high everywhere, stock is going crazy! YEP TESLA IS DOOMED......HA HA HA!

I see someone needs to collect his Tesla Advertising check requirements for this quarter...



I'm going to assume we'll ignore the report of all the issues coming from the Texas plant? I'd link, but you'd just ignore every source that isn't paidforbytesla.com

 Andrew1975 wrote:
stock is going crazy!

Yeah. . . because that is one metric we should ever consider for what is/isn't a decent vehicle. Working in the automotive industry, I will tell y'all point blank that supply chain is a huge huge issue. We'll see over time how much that issue weighs on Tesla, because supply chain is definitely having a negative impact on where I work.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
is planning on building one in Germany.

About that. Does Musk know that workers in the automotive sector over here have relatively strong unions? I mean, with how allergic he seems to unionisation, I have to wonder. Because it seems to me like he'd quickly scrap those plans if he knew that unions actually work over here and have negotiating power. He might try to push his "vision" though over here but would end up like Walmart: Giving up and closing down once he can't bully his opinion through because there are laws that make it much harder or impossible for him to do so.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Lets see since the last update Tesla has gotten back its Consumer report rating, has finished a factory in China, is planning on building one in Germany. Demand is still high everywhere, stock is going crazy! YEP TESLA IS DOOMED......HA HA HA!

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-mustang-mach-e-all-electric-ford-first-look-120135287.html

Just checking in...andddddd yep...Andrew still doing his thing.

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-said-neuralink-could-solve-autism-and-schizophrenia-2019-11

 Frazzled wrote:
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-said-neuralink-could-solve-autism-and-schizophrenia-2019-11

Of course he did. I think I've seen this before under a different name...

 Elbows wrote:
Just checking in...andddddd yep...Andrew still doing his thing.

Yeah, I literally just check in with this thread once in a while to see if anything interesting is being discussed but it's still just relentless Tesla propaganda from that guy. I've never seen anyone ride a cause that hard before.

There's a guy on a Steelers board promoting Mason Rudolph about that hard. Which seems like a more unfortunate cause...

It takes a special kind of fanboy to resurrect a 4-month old thread to act as cheerleader for a multinational company. So congrats...I guess? What's even more bizarre about this whole thing is I don't think many people are saying Teslas are bad cars, just a bit pricey and not always the best option, while also pointing out some possible problems with repairs, servicing and the much-lauded supercharger network. Very few are rabidly anti-Tesla, certainly not to the extent a certain user seems to be ludicrously pro-Tesla.

Since the thread has been resurrected though, here's an update from me regarding both Tesla and my own Nissan Leaf. My Leaf is great - ridiculously easy to drive and almost enjoyable to drive around a busy city. We've had it for just over a month and it's been a brilliant experience, barring the slightly dodgy app that Nissan uses. Performance is very good too, more than enough for the driving we do. Not had an electricity bill yet to see how it's affected our monthly costs but we've done a lot of research on the budget side of things so hopefully there won't be a big surprise there.

As it happens, my wife's friend bought a Tesla at about the same time we got our Nissan and they love the car, with similar feelings to us about driveability and ease of use. However, they had a bit of a nightmare with getting a charger installed and dealing with the Tesla sales infrastructure. Tesla doesn't operate a traditional dealership network, with its showrooms being more like high street advertising, so all sales are done through their website rather than the dealership. This caused a lot of problems for them because there was no local dealership they could speak to to get advice about the various government grants and procedures we have in the UK for getting your home charger installed. This resulted in them not having a home charger when they took delivery of the car.They didn't even get informed about the huge interest-free loan you can get from the Scottish government towards the cost of your car, potentially missing out on £35k towards the cost of their car.

In contrast, our experience was fantastic. The dealership walked us through every step of the process and was really helpful and on-hand when required. I know Tesla caused some upset with the traditional US manufacturers when they came out with their different approach to selling cars and I can see there are some advantages to it but it does seem there are also some pitfalls, many of which are specific to the EV market in some areas.

So end result: we're both happy with our cars. Our buying experience was stress-free and theirs wasn't so great. In 6 months that will all be fairly irrelevant as we'll have forgotten about it but it's probably something Tesla could do with improving.

OH I love it, I do. I've just been a bit busy to come on here and address all the issues. I just love seeing all the people who said Tesla would be bankrupt or out of business in a couple months seeing that they were wrong. My favorite were the "No demand" people.....yep no demand. Pretty much every issue from quality to maintenance has been addressed and tucked up. Customer service....yep still and issue in some places i guess. Almost as fun as watching shorts have to cover their bets. "China factory is never going to get built".....or really? interesting. Now it appears "German factory is going to be a problem" lets watch and find out.

I'd like to see how the New ford mustang works....it might actually be good...have to see. I'm not sure why you would use the name of your marquee sports car on a crossover EV....but whateves. I wish it more luck than the I pace and e Tron. The mustang being almost a carbon copy of the Y I think is very flattering.

I am a bit worried about todays truck launch though. Truck drivers tend to be pretty conservative.....and I don't think CYBERTRUCK (terrible call) is going to win them over.

Slip..its too bad your friends had a poor experience with customer service....it is one of the issues of not having enough service centers and well trained staff. I live about 100 miles between 2 service centers, but I found them to be pretty helpful, but it was done over the phone and internet for the most part. I did find them informative and helpful with both state and federal programs.....but I asked about them and was already familiar....would they have been as helpful if I hadn't known....i guess the jury is out on that one.

I like the e-mustang, but I bet the price will be stupid high. I had to get a new car recently and went with a jeep compass. It's a 3 year lease so I'm hoping when it's up there will be some more electric options out there. I still think the VW bus is gonna be the one for me.

 Necros wrote:
I like the e-mustang, but I bet the price will be stupid high. I had to get a new car recently and went with a jeep compass. It's a 3 year lease so I'm hoping when it's up there will be some more electric options out there. I still think the VW bus is gonna be the one for me.

Its will cost about the same as a model Y, and very similar specs. So in the $40-50k range.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-mustang-mach-e-tesla-model-y-compared-photos-specs-2019-11

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The dealerships could be a huge Ford advantage.....but it comes at a price in the sticker for the customer and profit to the dealership. However the Ford is also still eligible for the full EV discount.


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 Just Tony wrote:
I see someone needs to collect his Tesla Advertising check requirements for this quarter...



I'm going to assume we'll ignore the report of all the issues coming from the Texas plant? I'd link, but you'd just ignore every source that isn't paidforbytesla.com

What Texas Tesla Plant? There are issues in a non existent plant?


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 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
stock is going crazy!

Yeah. . . because that is one metric we should ever consider for what is/isn't a decent vehicle. Working in the automotive industry, I will tell y'all point blank that supply chain is a huge huge issue. We'll see over time how much that issue weighs on Tesla, because supply chain is definitely having a negative impact on where I work.

well you don't appear to like any of the other metrics. Like sales figures, quality figures, customer satisfaction figures, consumer reports figures, range figures, charging figures, performance figures....so......


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 gorgon wrote:
There's a guy on a Steelers board promoting Mason Rudolph about that hard. Which seems like a more unfortunate cause...

Rudolf is a jerk who writes checks he can't cash. Don't start problems there wont be any.


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Mario wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
is planning on building one in Germany.

About that. Does Musk know that workers in the automotive sector over here have relatively strong unions? I mean, with how allergic he seems to unionisation, I have to wonder. Because it seems to me like he'd quickly scrap those plans if he knew that unions actually work over here and have negotiating power. He might try to push his "vision" though over here but would end up like Walmart: Giving up and closing down once he can't bully his opinion through because there are laws that make it much harder or impossible for him to do so.

They appear pretty happy about it. https://www.dw.com/en/brandenburg-happy-to-get-tesla-gigafactory-in-eastern-germany/a-51222973

 Andrew1975 wrote:
OH I love it, I do. I've just been a bit busy to come on here and address all the issues. I just love seeing all the people who said Tesla would be bankrupt or out of business in a couple months seeing that they were wrong. My favorite were the "No demand" people.....yep no demand. Pretty much every issue from quality to maintenance has been addressed and tucked up. Customer service....yep still and issue in some places i guess. Almost as fun as watching shorts have to cover their bets. "China factory is never going to get built".....or really? interesting. Now it appears "German factory is going to be a problem" lets watch and find out.

.

It has had a TTM net loss of $827mm, EBITDA loss of nearly $2Bn. Its still issuing equity to fund cash flow. Wake me up when it becomes a going concern.

Yeah. . . sorry, but stock price is just one of the worst metrics to use as a measure of any company. Looking at other manufacturers in the auto sector, if you look at investment articles around the time of the NY Auto Show, you'll see lots of prognosticators talking about "what's wrong" with Ford. . . They routinely (always) meet or exceed sales goals. They move tons of cars, are hit with relatively few recalls, etc. . . And yet, they are being "beaten" by GM in the stock market.


My issues with Tesla have nothing to do with the quality or tech of the cars themselves. . . It's that Musk is basically artificially propping his own company up because it would have otherwise long since run out of capital. The company does have, and continues to have supply chain issues. For a young company like Tesla, that is normally a death sentence by itself

 Andrew1975 wrote:
OH I love it, I do. I've just been a bit busy to come on here and address all the issues. I just love seeing all the people who said Tesla would be bankrupt or out of business in a couple months seeing that they were wrong. My favorite were the "No demand" people.....yep no demand.

What would you call a 39% reduction of YoY revenue in the US then?

Reno Gigafactory, sorry. Yahoo just ran a story on their frontpage tail end of last week or beginning of this week showcasing all the problems involved. I'm at work, so no link hunt for me. Google is there for those who need it.

 Just Tony wrote:
Reno Gigafactory, sorry. Yahoo just ran a story on their frontpage tail end of last week or beginning of this week showcasing all the problems involved. I'm at work, so no link hunt for me. Google is there for those who need it.

Whats wrong with the Reno factory....I mean i know its causing headaches becasue the cities infustructure just wasnt ready. But besides that?


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Ok so like I said Cybertruck would be different.....and boy is it. looks like a delorean and and aztec got drunk one night. The specs for the price are amazing though.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-electric-pickup-engineering-manufacturing/

I don't see this going over well with the NASCAR crowd, which is the truck market.....but i get the feeling it wasnt meant to. I've never been a truck guy so you guys might have more input.


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jouso wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
OH I love it, I do. I've just been a bit busy to come on here and address all the issues. I just love seeing all the people who said Tesla would be bankrupt or out of business in a couple months seeing that they were wrong. My favorite were the "No demand" people.....yep no demand.

What would you call a 39% reduction of YoY revenue in the US then?

Did they sell all their cars? Do they have months and months of inventory stacked up somewhere? They are selling everything they produce, its not demand issue, or a production issue. They just cant build enough. When you start shipping your inventory to the rest of the world....thats what happens. THats why they just finished the chinese factory and are building one in germany.


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 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Yeah. . . sorry, but stock price is just one of the worst metrics to use as a measure of any company. Looking at other manufacturers in the auto sector, if you look at investment articles around the time of the NY Auto Show, you'll see lots of prognosticators talking about "what's wrong" with Ford. . . They routinely (always) meet or exceed sales goals. They move tons of cars, are hit with relatively few recalls, etc. . . And yet, they are being "beaten" by GM in the stock market.


My issues with Tesla have nothing to do with the quality or tech of the cars themselves. . . It's that Musk is basically artificially propping his own company up because it would have otherwise long since run out of capital. The company does have, and continues to have supply chain issues. For a young company like Tesla, that is normally a death sentence by itself

I guess...but they appear to be doing well. As far as supply chain, im not sure i understand. They are pushing out cars and not stopping production because they are out of parts.....do you mean as far as the repair and maintenance aspect? And how did he prop up his own company? Was he swindling people?

Look I like ford.....i love the GT....but what compelling cars is ford making? The Mach E may bring them into significance again...but ford just quite the sedan market. So truck and SUVs is about all they will make, oh and a bunch of different mustangs. They are almost in as bad a position as Chrysler. Chrysler makes what 3 automobiles now? The 300 (which I like and own) is how old now? I do like the pacifica hybrid minivan a lot, but apparently nobody else does...and their dealers certainly dont know how to sell them.