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 ingtaer wrote:
Why are we even discussing guard again? Thought the topic was cultists.

I think it's some sort of Dakka Godwin's law. Guardwin's law

Pleasestop wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
When 8th edition started guardsman were really good for the points already. You compared them to cultists, ork boys, conscripts and a few other units they were a no brainer to take and probably undercosted at the time. Now ork boyz went up, conscripts went up and cultists went up.. but the guarsmen are still the same and somehow Veterans went down. should really be conscripts- 4ppm, guardsman- 5ppm, veterans- 6ppm in my opinion. You will still at that point see guardsman around bubble wrapping things but you might also see other things like mechanicum bubblewrap as they would be more comparable in points to performance.

Do you see anyone using veterans? They are way too expensive for what they do and how little survivability they have, especially paying bs 3+ prices for a Meltaguns instead of bs 4+. Especially when the difference between those are equal to a whole nother guardsman

a guardsman is imo worth close to 6 points already so getting +1 BS def pushes them up to that level yes.

as for people using veterans not often, but I have seen the 2 meltas and a plasma pistol in a chimera rush up and do the emperor's work. I run a squad of this in my own imperial guard lists and they almost always get their points back.

 DominayTrix wrote:
5ppm cultists are now officially worse than kroot. Even the tau have better melee chaff now.

This is just exceedingly false, because carnivores have none of the force multipliers that cultists do. But I'm glad you brought them up, because kroot, like cultists, also have no trait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:


a guardsman is imo worth close to 6 points already

I know this isn't your point, but I wanted to use this to play some devil's advocate...

The people who think IS should be 6 points - can you give 3 bullet points as to why that is the case?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tygre wrote:
I think that "most" guard players have little problem with guardsmen going up 1 point to 5 points. But going higher than that is where you will get the big arguments.

No, even going 1 point higher is too much.

Infantry Squads cannot and should not be changed unless it is accompanied by a boost to Carapace Armor instead of Flak.

Yet you flew off the handle when I suggested half a point via making the Sergeant an extra 5 points for ease of bookkeeping.

What does a Sergeant bring to a squad to make them worth "an extra 5 points"?

A Laspistol and 1 LD. That's not "an extra 5 points". That's not even an extra point.

Well it's better than making them all 4.5 points.

Also see you flew off the handle again! Amazing how far the Imperial Guard apologists will go!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 DominayTrix wrote:
5ppm cultists are now officially worse than kroot. Even the tau have better melee chaff now.

This is just exceedingly false, because carnivores have none of the force multipliers that cultists do. But I'm glad you brought them up, because kroot, like cultists, also have no trait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:


a guardsman is imo worth close to 6 points already

I know this isn't your point, but I wanted to use this to play some devil's advocate...

The people who think IS should be 6 points - can you give 3 bullet points as to why that is the case?

So why should a unit be priced on what MIGHT be around? Also Kroot can get access to support via the Dalyth Warlord trait. Should they be priced more because of it?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The people who think IS should be 6 points - can you give 3 bullet points as to why that is the case?

Orders, armor, weaponry, leadership.

Gave you four.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The people who think IS should be 6 points - can you give 3 bullet points as to why that is the case?

Orders, armor, weaponry, leadership.

Gave you four.

IS are 6 points, is it a 1 point upgrade to fire warriors? Where do Vets fit in there?

Maybe orders need to be nerfed.

 Sir Heckington wrote:
IS are 6 points, is it a 1 point upgrade to fire warriors? Where do Vets fit in there?

Maybe orders need to be nerfed.

I actually tend to fall into the category of make Guardsmen 5ppm, Veterans 6ppm, and tack 10 points onto any unit that can issue orders.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
IS are 6 points, is it a 1 point upgrade to fire warriors? Where do Vets fit in there?

Maybe orders need to be nerfed.

I actually tend to fall into the category of make Guardsmen 5ppm, Veterans 6ppm, and tack 10 points onto any unit that can issue orders.

Ah, okay, that works with me TBH.

 inirlan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tyranid infantry would really like to talk about being overcosted.

A hormagaunt is 5 points and doesn't even have a gun. 2 str 3 attacking in CC with a 6+ save. They have a special pile in move you never get to use because they are dead. THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A GUN.

On the flip side, they are normally immune to morale, which probably accounts for that cost. (See : poxwalkers)

I mean....most armies have a completely ignore morale mechanic. Be it squad size or a special character that always gets used. It is not justification for costing a point more than you should.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
IS are 6 points, is it a 1 point upgrade to fire warriors? Where do Vets fit in there?

Maybe orders need to be nerfed.

I actually tend to fall into the category of make Guardsmen 5ppm, Veterans 6ppm, and tack 10 points onto any unit that can issue orders.

No.
If anything most Officers are already too expensive given the crap options they have access to and the lack of any meaningful role other than "Shout at Things". You want a higher priced Officer? You start them off with some actual wargear to justify it. Carapace Armor, Power Swords, whatever. There's a reason why they are able to be taken so cheap and it's because there is 0 reason for anyone to put anything else on them past what little is mandatory at the moment.

Ditch Conscripts' <Regiment> and Raw Recruits(it no longer becomes needed since they can't receive Orders) or rework Raw Recruits into a Synapse styled thing(if no Officers or Commissars in range--LD penalties abound!), drop their saves to a 6+ and in general make them more in line with what a "Conscript" should be--drop to 3ppm.
Drop Cultists' access to special weapons, drop to 3ppm.

Voila! Fixed. Because Veterans at 6ppm is, quite frankly, going to be even more of a death knell for that unit.

Kabs and fw should be 8 pts. Basically all the cheap troops need to come up is the moral of the story.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
IS are 6 points, is it a 1 point upgrade to fire warriors? Where do Vets fit in there?

Maybe orders need to be nerfed.

I actually tend to fall into the category of make Guardsmen 5ppm, Veterans 6ppm, and tack 10 points onto any unit that can issue orders.

No.
If anything most Officers are already too expensive given the crap options they have access to and the lack of any meaningful role other than "Shout at Things". You want a higher priced Officer? You start them off with some actual wargear to justify it. Carapace Armor, Power Swords, whatever. There's a reason why they are able to be taken so cheap and it's because there is 0 reason for anyone to put anything else on them past what little is mandatory at the moment.

I don't get this logic, because nobody was putting any wargear on them anyway.
Also they should be cheaper because they can't buy stuff? So logically stuff should be more expensive if it has more options?

Logic like that is why Devastators used to pay 40 points for a Lascannon. That was stupid.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 DominayTrix wrote:
5ppm cultists are now officially worse than kroot. Even the tau have better melee chaff now.

This is just exceedingly false, because carnivores have none of the force multipliers that cultists do. But I'm glad you brought them up, because kroot, like cultists, also have no trait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:


a guardsman is imo worth close to 6 points already

I know this isn't your point, but I wanted to use this to play some devil's advocate...

The people who think IS should be 6 points - can you give 3 bullet points as to why that is the case?

Kroot have access to multiple force multipliers. They allow Tau units to FTGG, have 2 different units that can buff leadership, reroll wound rolls of 1, and finally they use the markerlight table. This is before you look at things like better guns, better WS, scout move, higher strength ranged and melee attacks, their ranged weapon IS their melee weapon unlike cultists who have to choose, regular Tau units can FTGG for them, and higher base move speed. With the exception of FTGG, all of these buffs aren't limited to one unit per turn like VOLW, prescience, endless cacophany etc are.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The people who think IS should be 6 points - can you give 3 bullet points as to why that is the case?

Orders, armor, weaponry, leadership.

Gave you four.

Orders is a big one. IS are effectively 5.5 points with a commander. That's your 6 point IS right there. The commander does almost nothing otherwise and is going to be very vulnerable if assassins take hold. They could still probably use a 1 point bump, but I'm ok waiting for recent changes to shake out.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
IS are 6 points, is it a 1 point upgrade to fire warriors? Where do Vets fit in there?

Maybe orders need to be nerfed.

I actually tend to fall into the category of make Guardsmen 5ppm, Veterans 6ppm, and tack 10 points onto any unit that can issue orders.

No.
If anything most Officers are already too expensive given the crap options they have access to and the lack of any meaningful role other than "Shout at Things". You want a higher priced Officer? You start them off with some actual wargear to justify it. Carapace Armor, Power Swords, whatever. There's a reason why they are able to be taken so cheap and it's because there is 0 reason for anyone to put anything else on them past what little is mandatory at the moment.

Ditch Conscripts' <Regiment> and Raw Recruits(it no longer becomes needed since they can't receive Orders) or rework Raw Recruits into a Synapse styled thing(if no Officers or Commissars in range--LD penalties abound!), drop their saves to a 6+ and in general make them more in line with what a "Conscript" should be--drop to 3ppm.
Drop Cultists' access to special weapons, drop to 3ppm.

Voila! Fixed. Because Veterans at 6ppm is, quite frankly, going to be even more of a death knell for that unit.

Reminder that Grots are 3ppm.
Your modified Conscrpits and Cultists are still far better than Grots.
4ppm would be fair.

Storm Guardians are 6ppm. Pistol/Chainsword Guardsmen with +1 Mv/WS/BS.

Guardian Defenders are 8ppm. Boltgun-equivelant weapon, BattleFocus, +1 Mv/WS/BS Guardsmen - paying twice the points for more mobility and basic-Tac-Marine firepower.

 Blndmage wrote:

Reminder that Grots are 3ppm.
Your modified Conscrpits and Cultists are still far better than Grots.
4ppm would be fair.

Grots are a weird one in that it's blatantly obvious that the unit has the effectiveness of the Grot Shield stratagem baked into their points.

I've wondered for awhile if it was intended to be an ability rather than a stratagem.

 DominayTrix wrote:

Kroot have access to multiple force multipliers. They allow Tau units to FTGG, have 2 different units that can buff leadership, reroll wound rolls of 1, and finally they use the markerlight table. This is before you look at things like better guns, better WS, scout move, higher strength ranged and melee attacks, their ranged weapon IS their melee weapon unlike cultists who have to choose, regular Tau units can FTGG for them, and higher base move speed. With the exception of FTGG, all of these buffs aren't limited to one unit per turn like VOLW, prescience, endless cacophany etc are.

Kroot can go to 20. They have 1 S4 attack in melee.
Cultists go to 30. They can have either 1 or 2 S3 attacks. +1A for outnumbering.

Both are T3. Cultists can have a 5++ in a bubble now with essentially no chance of failure.

Both are LD6. Cultists can be made morale immune in more than one way now.

Cultists can get reroll charges. Multiple methods of +1 to hit. +1 to wound in melee.

Kroot get markerlights. Cultists just get to flat reroll hits.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

Reminder that Grots are 3ppm.
Your modified Conscrpits and Cultists are still far better than Grots.
4ppm would be fair.

Grots are a weird one in that it's blatantly obvious that the unit has the effectiveness of the Grot Shield stratagem baked into their points.

I've wondered for awhile if it was intended to be an ability rather than a stratagem.

*points at Index Orks and many other past editions*
3ppm Grots has been the standard for ages, the Stratagem doesn't play into their points at all.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
IS are 6 points, is it a 1 point upgrade to fire warriors? Where do Vets fit in there?

Maybe orders need to be nerfed.

I actually tend to fall into the category of make Guardsmen 5ppm, Veterans 6ppm, and tack 10 points onto any unit that can issue orders.

No.
If anything most Officers are already too expensive given the crap options they have access to and the lack of any meaningful role other than "Shout at Things". You want a higher priced Officer? You start them off with some actual wargear to justify it. Carapace Armor, Power Swords, whatever. There's a reason why they are able to be taken so cheap and it's because there is 0 reason for anyone to put anything else on them past what little is mandatory at the moment.

Ditch Conscripts' <Regiment> and Raw Recruits(it no longer becomes needed since they can't receive Orders) or rework Raw Recruits into a Synapse styled thing(if no Officers or Commissars in range--LD penalties abound!), drop their saves to a 6+ and in general make them more in line with what a "Conscript" should be--drop to 3ppm.
Drop Cultists' access to special weapons, drop to 3ppm.

Voila! Fixed. Because Veterans at 6ppm is, quite frankly, going to be even more of a death knell for that unit.

Cultists have no access to special weapons though, they have access to flamers or stubbers, nothing else.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Kroot can go to 20. They have 1 S4 attack in melee.
Cultists go to 30. They can have either 1 or 2 S3 attacks. +1A for outnumbering.

I believe that is tied to the specialist detachment, it's certainly not automatic.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Both are T3. Cultists can have a 5++ in a bubble now with essentially no chance of failure.

If I devote a Dark Apostle to babysitting them, and I choose that prayer, like say, instead of the +1 to wound prayer, or the -1 to hit prayer. The Dark Apostle has become Schrodinger's buff. Or if I devote a detachment to a Noc Crown and they never move.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Both are LD6. Cultists can be made morale immune in more than one way now.

If I devote Abaddon to babysitting or make them Iron Warriors and devote my Iron Warriors Chaos Lord to babysitting them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Cultists can get reroll charges. Multiple methods of +1 to hit. +1 to wound in melee.

They have 1 way to get +1 to wound, in melee, with babysitter, they don't get Veterans.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Kroot get markerlights. Cultists just get to flat reroll hits.

Again, if I tie up Abaddon on babysitting duty, otherwise it's re-roll 1s and I'm still tying up a Chaos Lord to babysit Cultists.

I mean pretty much everything listed above is throwing good points at a bad unit to make it...mediocre?

I can't answer all your questions until I see the books, but when you get to multiply everything you do by 30 it makes it more significant.

Removing 60 to 90 models with a 5++ that are morale immune is not terribly easy. Given enough dedication to supporting them they'll swamp your lines before you can kill them all. And when they're there so is Abaddon and he's definitely not worse now given that he'll hit and wound knights on 2s if you want.

If you truly want to run cultists are hard as possible then you'd run them as the fluff sort of envisions. Multiple DAs tossing out buffs. Beat stick characters swirling in the middle ready to thunder hammer the hard stuff.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Kroot can go to 20. They have 1 S4 attack in melee.
Cultists go to 30. They can have either 1 or 2 S3 attacks. +1A for outnumbering.

I believe that is tied to the specialist detachment, it's certainly not automatic.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Both are T3. Cultists can have a 5++ in a bubble now with essentially no chance of failure.

If I devote a Dark Apostle to babysitting them, and I choose that prayer, like say, instead of the +1 to wound prayer, or the -1 to hit prayer. The Dark Apostle has become Schrodinger's buff. Or if I devote a detachment to a Noc Crown and they never move.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Both are LD6. Cultists can be made morale immune in more than one way now.

If I devote Abaddon to babysitting or make them Iron Warriors and devote my Iron Warriors Chaos Lord to babysitting them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Cultists can get reroll charges. Multiple methods of +1 to hit. +1 to wound in melee.

They have 1 way to get +1 to wound, in melee, with babysitter, they don't get Veterans.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Kroot get markerlights. Cultists just get to flat reroll hits.

Again, if I tie up Abaddon on babysitting duty, otherwise it's re-roll 1s and I'm still tying up a Chaos Lord to babysit Cultists.

I mean pretty much everything listed above is throwing good points at a bad unit to make it...mediocre?

TBH ever since the Index Chaos had the tendency to include the Stratagem cost moreso then other armies, same with synergy.
"Oh but Oblierators are so good with Slaanesh their increased cost does nothing against them" meanwhile every other non Slaanesh Obliterator has to deal with the pricehike.

Rinse and repeat for the rest of the book. CSM units don't stand alone and you feel it. It's kinda like all competitive marines lists requiring Gulliman.

I think a lot of issues come with lack of granularity of particular units when points are this low.

Difference between 20 and 21 are negligible, but between 4 and 5 is potentially colossal.

I do honestly believe guardsmen for 4 ppm ARE much greater than their point costs justifies. Hell they shoot quite well, are tremendously durable for the cost and some of the regiment bonuses are a little crazy in my opinion. I hate charging catachan IS with my hormagaunts, why on earth is a unit cheaper hitting harder with better armour?


I'm fine with either 6 pt guardsmen with captains staying same price, or 5 pt guardsmen with anyone who can order going slightly up in price as well. In an ideal world I would double the points cost of EVERYTHING and allow for true granular scale where you could much more accurately dictate a units point to power much better.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
I think a lot of issues come with lack of granularity of particular units when points are this low.

Difference between 20 and 21 are negligible, but between 4 and 5 is potentially colossal.

I do honestly believe guardsmen for 4 ppm ARE much greater than their point costs justifies. Hell they shoot quite well, are tremendously durable for the cost and some of the regiment bonuses are a little crazy in my opinion. I hate charging catachan IS with my hormagaunts, why on earth is a unit cheaper hitting harder with better armour?


I'm fine with either 6 pt guardsmen with captains staying same price, or 5 pt guardsmen with anyone who can order going slightly up in price as well. In an ideal world I would double the points cost of EVERYTHING and allow for true granular scale where you could much more accurately dictate a units point to power much better.

Seconded, it is much easier to balance Grots>Conscripts>Cultists>IG>Veterans, etc when they would be more expensive.

Why it never was done is quite frankly beyond me.

Cultists got nerfed. With a 6+ save only but a decent shooting attack they are worth 5 points. They never should have gotten VOtLW and VOtLW needs to get a nerf to only affect your next attack action anyways getting 2-3 rounds of shooting out of it is blatantly broken for 1 CP. That or it can cost 3 CP like the Tau +1 to wound stratagem. With this infantry are probably worth 6 points. Man...how much of the games issues would be fixed if common sense was put into pointing units.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
I think a lot of issues come with lack of granularity of particular units when points are this low.

Difference between 20 and 21 are negligible, but between 4 and 5 is potentially colossal.

I do honestly believe guardsmen for 4 ppm ARE much greater than their point costs justifies. Hell they shoot quite well, are tremendously durable for the cost and some of the regiment bonuses are a little crazy in my opinion. I hate charging catachan IS with my hormagaunts, why on earth is a unit cheaper hitting harder with better armour?


I'm fine with either 6 pt guardsmen with captains staying same price, or 5 pt guardsmen with anyone who can order going slightly up in price as well. In an ideal world I would double the points cost of EVERYTHING and allow for true granular scale where you could much more accurately dictate a units point to power much better.

This. Exalted.

Not Online!!! wrote:


TBH ever since the Index Chaos had the tendency to include the Stratagem cost moreso then other armies, same with synergy.
"Oh but Oblierators are so good with Slaanesh their increased cost does nothing against them" meanwhile every other non Slaanesh Obliterator has to deal with the pricehike.

Rinse and repeat for the rest of the book. CSM units don't stand alone and you feel it. It's kinda like all competitive marines lists requiring Gulliman.

That's everything.

You don't take a Valiant - you take a Castellan with Cawl's Wrath.
You need commanders with your IS.
Doom is required for haywire to really do work.
You're not running grotesques or talos without a haemonculus.
etc
etc
etc

Bharring wrote:
Storm Guardians are 6ppm. Pistol/Chainsword Guardsmen with +1 Mv/WS/BS.

Guardian Defenders are 8ppm. Boltgun-equivelant weapon, BattleFocus, +1 Mv/WS/BS Guardsmen - paying twice the points for more mobility and basic-Tac-Marine firepower.

But you CAN use buffs!

That's literally the argument some people would use. Defenders are only worth a damn in ONE particular scenario (bombs basically) and don't even get me started on why Storm Guardians are bad and in fact shouldn't even exist.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Cultists got nerfed. With a 6+ save only but a decent shooting attack they are worth 5 points. They never should have gotten VOtLW and VOtLW needs to get a nerf to only affect your next attack action anyways getting 2-3 rounds of shooting out of it is blatantly broken for 1 CP. That or it can cost 3 CP like the Tau +1 to wound stratagem. With this infantry are probably worth 6 points. Man...how much of the games issues would be fixed if common sense was put into pointing units.

How about we chop off a leg from each Chaos Marine while we're at it?