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Depends also on the point of view of the recruiter. If he has a bad opinion of the game and talk about it, no matter how hard he tries to hide it, it will show eventually - and the guy who hear that will have more chances to have a bad first impression as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/02 19:50:59
balmong7 wrote: I played my first every game the other day with my 1000 pts of gloomspite gitz from 2xlooncurse boxes against a friends 1000pts of khorne that he just got from trading his nighthaunt army from the starter sets. He was dealing enough mortal wounds to wipe out full units in his hero phase alone. It was insane and really turned me off the game. The only strategy I can think of to counter it is for me to just use my squig hopper and boingrot bounders to charge over his units and attack his priests directly. just ignoring everything else. I'm hoping once I get up to 2000pts built and can bring my own wizards that I will be able to compete on a more even level.
I think getting smoked in your very first game is the norm, not the exception. That's not unique to AoS.
That also seems like a fairly small Gloomspite army even at 1K for what its worth, unless you are supplementing it with other minis in your collection?
I'd hang in there and keep at it, as it looks like you've quickly established target priority for the next game(his Hero's), and what unit to use (Bounders with their "flying" ability, decent MW output and rend make them great sniper type units for soft targets). That's huge, and particularly impressive to recognize that after your very first game. And your ideas for building to 2K seem sound as well. Hint: The Fungoid Cave Shaman is an absolute CP generating machine. You'll have no problems getting command abilities off, making your dudes that much better.
We've all been in your shoes. Its definitely easy to get into a doom and gloom funk, but I like the fact that you're already plotting your opponents destruction for the next game. I think you'll be alright once you get more games under your belt and start expanding your army out, as well as just understanding the game and your opponent better.
Just keep playing, my dude.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
Sarouan wrote: Depends also on the point of view of the recruiter. If he has a bad opinion of the game and talk about it, no matter how hard he tries to hide it, it will show eventually - and the guy who hear that will have more chances to have a bad first impression as well.
Hard to imagine a recruiter having a bad opinion of the game. One thing to be playing a game a person doesn't like, and further to be recruiting for a game they don't like?
Personally, as an honest person, I cannot respond to the question "So two armies with equal points are evenly matched?" with "Yes." I can (and do) explain that once a person gets a bit of experience they can work things out, and that there are plenty of people willing to help new players, and that telling people ahead of time will let them bring appropriate lists, but I can't say two armies with equal points are evenly matched. And some people are just looking for the answer to be yes. I'm sure there's plenty of recruiters who would glaze over or ignore the answer to the question as best they could, but I don't do deception.
EDIT: To be clear I don't mean to imply you or anyone on here is dishonest.
balmong7 wrote: I played my first every game the other day with my 1000 pts of gloomspite gitz from 2xlooncurse boxes against a friends 1000pts of khorne that he just got from trading his nighthaunt army from the starter sets. He was dealing enough mortal wounds to wipe out full units in his hero phase alone. It was insane and really turned me off the game. The only strategy I can think of to counter it is for me to just use my squig hopper and boingrot bounders to charge over his units and attack his priests directly. just ignoring everything else. I'm hoping once I get up to 2000pts built and can bring my own wizards that I will be able to compete on a more even level.
I think getting smoked in your very first game is the norm, not the exception. That's not unique to AoS.
Very valid point, this.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/02 22:39:35
Sarouan wrote: Depends also on the point of view of the recruiter. If he has a bad opinion of the game and talk about it, no matter how hard he tries to hide it, it will show eventually - and the guy who hear that will have more chances to have a bad first impression as well.
Hard to imagine a recruiter having a bad opinion of the game. One thing to be playing a game a person doesn't like, and further to be recruiting for a game they don't like?
Personally, as an honest person, I cannot respond to the question "So two armies with equal points are evenly matched?" with "Yes." I can (and do) explain that once a person gets a bit of experience they can work things out, and that there are plenty of people willing to help new players, and that telling people ahead of time will let them bring appropriate lists, but I can't say two armies with equal points are evenly matched. And some people are just looking for the answer to be yes. I'm sure there's plenty of recruiters who would glaze over or ignore the answer to the question as best they could, but I don't do deception.
.
Honestly two magic decks with 60 cards in them won't be evenly matched at all if they aren't built to the same skill level and heck a beginner without any "deck theory" behind them might well use far too much or too little land and thus break their deck that way, long before we even consider power curves or combos or cost distribution.
It's the same for most games in truth, very few games out there would let you put down just "anything" and get a fair game.
As for recruiters with a negative opinion I've seen those! Or rather I've seen people try to drum up interest in game, but will badmouth the game/developers at every turn they get. They might not do both in the same breath, but they do them close enough that it counts. Online you can often spot it easier because you can see a persons conversation history, whilst in reality those complaints might get hidden from a new person to a club because they aren't in all the background chatter yet. Though a regular club member who isn't yet an AoS player might well pick up that "Dave" is always badmouthing the game/GW but still tries to get others involved now and then.
So yes self-defeating recruiters can and do exist in the world, though often they don't realise they are doing it.
Most of our new players dont have “recruiters”. They come in with a friend and buy starter forces with the expectation that even pointed forces are balanced against each other.
One of the two chooses poorly and gets smoked several times and it is then that they learn the truth of gw points and community expectations and choose to churn and burn or cut their financial losses at that point.
Some will ask us what forces are garbage first. Those again are usually all ccg players that know how this racket works. They are about half of our new players.
The gas to the fire is when they learn that this style of churn and burn is desired (it is hard for some people to wrap their minds around why people would enjoy being forced to update their collection annually) and that gw games really are the only game in town for miniatures.
This effect is tripled for 40k as it attracts exponentially more people at the gate.
Often when a new player cuts and runs and puts their stuff up for sale, people who anticipate the stock of those units rising with an faq jump all over it for pennies on the dollar.
We call it the cycle of life.
A few find our narrative campaign stuff and stick for the open play house ruling of the things we find most negative. A few drift to pro warhammer at one of our pro player tournament clubs. A lot have a shelf life of less than a year...which to me is bad.
But they paid their money into the company so bottom line is it works.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/02 21:42:24
Sarouan wrote: Depends also on the point of view of the recruiter. If he has a bad opinion of the game and talk about it, no matter how hard he tries to hide it, it will show eventually - and the guy who hear that will have more chances to have a bad first impression as well.
Hard to imagine a recruiter having a bad opinion of the game. One thing to be playing a game a person doesn't like, and further to be recruiting for a game they don't like?
Personally, as an honest person, I cannot respond to the question "So two armies with equal points are evenly matched?" with "Yes." I can (and do) explain that once a person gets a bit of experience they can work things out, and that there are plenty of people willing to help new players, and that telling people ahead of time will let them bring appropriate lists, but I can't say two armies with equal points are evenly matched. And some people are just looking for the answer to be yes. I'm sure there's plenty of recruiters who would glaze over or ignore the answer to the question as best they could, but I don't do deception.
.
Honestly two magic decks with 60 cards in them won't be evenly matched at all if they aren't built to the same skill level and heck a beginner without any "deck theory" behind them might well use far too much or too little land and thus break their deck that way, long before we even consider power curves or combos or cost distribution.
It's the same for most games in truth, very few games out there would let you put down just "anything" and get a fair game.
True, but the cost to start playing MTG is incomparable to Warhammer when combining money, time, effort, etc. Also it it's more than putting down *anything* its that some units or even while factions are simply poor; I dread encountering a new player saying "yeah I'm super excited to start playing Kharadron!" Because how do you break it to them?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overread wrote: As for recruiters with a negative opinion I've seen those! Or rather I've seen people try to drum up interest in game, but will badmouth the game/developers at every turn they get. They might not do both in the same breath, but they do them close enough that it counts. Online you can often spot it easier because you can see a persons conversation history, whilst in reality those complaints might get hidden from a new person to a club because they aren't in all the background chatter yet. Though a regular club member who isn't yet an AoS player might well pick up that "Dave" is always badmouthing the game/GW but still tries to get others involved now and then.
So yes self-defeating recruiters can and do exist in the world, though often they don't realise they are doing it.
Ohh, that makes sense. One of the reasons I do most of my complaining online
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/02 21:45:39
Yes, there are bad recruiters and good recruiters. And yes, they usually don't notice what they're doing "bad". It's a job in itself.
auticus wrote: A lot have a shelf life of less than a year...which to me is bad.
But they paid their money into the company so bottom line is it works.
I think it is more by design than anything else. Competition sells, and changing the meta is a way to make players buy something new. Fact that the General Handbook has a cycle of more or less 1 year serves that purpose, IMHO.
Games nowaday aren't made to have everything in the core book at the start. Usually, they're sold more in smaller parts on a longer time, so that you keep having something the players will buy. It's not just GW, TBH. You can see the same pattern in other companies, even those that have the reputation to be "player friendly".
Awesome! But if you are playing people that have a min/max bent, you will need to chase the meta along with them to have good games. Or at the minimum be ok with having your face rubbed in pooh the whole time.
auticus wrote: Awesome! But if you are playing people that have a min/max bent, you will need to chase the meta along with them to have good games. Or at the minimum be ok with having your face rubbed in pooh the whole time.
No, I just talk with people to know and agree on what will make a game interesting between us. In the end, it's all down to the lists, not the points. Surprisingly, it works...takes some time, sure, but that's how you make new good friends as well, after all. That's why I understand Jervis Johnson when he was talking about the social contracts of games. I have come to believe it is way more important than any set of rules, no matter how tightly written or seen as balanced as they could.
But then, I'm not living in the US and don't have the same culture there, so I guess it may sound a bit strange or weird on the other side of the ocean.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/02 23:42:25
It doesn't sound strange or weird at all. Its just not very likely to work over here as it does over there.
An example is the thread in tournament discussion about going off the rails etc 40k hate.
For a great many folks over here, asking them to not max out their list is seen at the very least as mildly irritating and at the worst, a direct insult.
The social contract of the game in the states is often die fast, die hard, go max and play as hard as possible.
Which is why when we have global forums, people look at each other funny because the cultures are often so very different.
*to stop someone pedantically stating "not everyone is like that", thats true. Not everyone is like that. But its common enough here that it does affect how we view the game and what type of games we get to play.
auticus wrote: It doesn't sound strange or weird at all. Its just not very likely to work over here as it does over there.
An example is the thread in tournament discussion about going off the rails etc 40k hate.
For a great many folks over here, asking them to not max out their list is seen at the very least as mildly irritating and at the worst, a direct insult.
The social contract of the game in the states is often die fast, die hard, go max and play as hard as possible.
Which is why when we have global forums, people look at each other funny because the cultures are often so very different.
*to stop someone pedantically stating "not everyone is like that", thats true. Not everyone is like that. But its common enough here that it does affect how we view the game and what type of games we get to play.
Do you mean online or in person ? Because I have found that the tone is very different if you have your opponent in front of you rather than chatting with him on the net. When I find agreements, it is always in person. Online, it's...more difficult, I admit.
NinthMusketeer wrote: True, but the cost to start playing MTG is incomparable to Warhammer when combining money, time, effort, etc. Also it it's more than putting down *anything* its that some units or even while factions are simply poor; I dread encountering a new player saying "yeah I'm super excited to start playing Kharadron!" Because how do you break it to them?
On the cost side it depends - you can get started in Magic with a premade deck for a tiny cost; and you can get started in AoS with a Getting Started set. Sure the Wargame costs more (plus more time with at least building) but yes the costs are different. However that premade magic deck is not only just "as bad" as the getting started warhammer set; but its also comparably cheaper tahn building a higher tier deck which might well have quite a cost if you've got to hunt down specific popular cards (or run the gauntlet of random chance).
Also the Kharadron player is super easy right now. You get all keen on the cool steam-punk dwarves with airships; hooked on the really neat airship models and then note that they've likely got a brand new book coming within the next year or so. So whilst they are still learning the game (few people are going to be pure novices and jump into winning competitive games in their first half a year to year of play) and still building cool models they've got time before a brand new book drops with abilities, alliance features and suchlike. You can easily fill them in on the next 2 confirmed and at least 1 almost confirmed Battletomes we know of over the next few months (ogers is basically confirmed because of the new model).
I agree its not ideal news, but how its presented is important; plus lets not forget this isn't the last few editions of Warhammer. You're not telling them "Ok so in the next 5 years you might see a book if you're lucky" its "in the next year there will be a book"
Do you mean online or in person ? Because I have found that the tone is very different if you have your opponent in front of you rather than chatting with him on the net. When I find agreements, it is always in person. Online, it's...more difficult, I admit.
Either. Though usually the nasty words aren't spoken in person, they are reserved for online communication. However, I've watched the communication go down and it isn't overtly rude. However the competitive person makes it clear he's not dumbing his list down and the other player usually acquiesces (and then the game is as you'd expect, a one sided stomp fest).
You're not telling them "Ok so in the next 5 years you might see a book if you're lucky" its "in the next year there will be a book"
Very few people would be thrilled to hear either one of those things had they dropped $500 or more on an army only to find out its a flaming turd because the community wants its meta churn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/03 00:16:49
Well, I did meet competitive players who were very stubborn and hard to talk with, so yes I understand what you're saying, Auticus. I feel honestly sad for you that you seem surrounded by people not willing to talk/compromise/find another way to play in your area.
NinthMusketeer wrote: True, but the cost to start playing MTG is incomparable to Warhammer when combining money, time, effort, etc. Also it it's more than putting down *anything* its that some units or even while factions are simply poor; I dread encountering a new player saying "yeah I'm super excited to start playing Kharadron!" Because how do you break it to them?
On the cost side it depends - you can get started in Magic with a premade deck for a tiny cost; and you can get started in AoS with a Getting Started set. Sure the Wargame costs more (plus more time with at least building) but yes the costs are different. However that premade magic deck is not only just "as bad" as the getting started warhammer set; but its also comparably cheaper tahn building a higher tier deck which might well have quite a cost if you've got to hunt down specific popular cards (or run the gauntlet of random chance).
Also the Kharadron player is super easy right now. You get all keen on the cool steam-punk dwarves with airships; hooked on the really neat airship models and then note that they've likely got a brand new book coming within the next year or so. So whilst they are still learning the game (few people are going to be pure novices and jump into winning competitive games in their first half a year to year of play) and still building cool models they've got time before a brand new book drops with abilities, alliance features and suchlike. You can easily fill them in on the next 2 confirmed and at least 1 almost confirmed Battletomes we know of over the next few months (ogers is basically confirmed because of the new model).
I agree its not ideal news, but how its presented is important; plus lets not forget this isn't the last few editions of Warhammer. You're not telling them "Ok so in the next 5 years you might see a book if you're lucky" its "in the next year there will be a book"
To be fair, what makes Magic easy to get into(and many comparable CCG) is the fact that they have Draft playstyles that allow people of varying collections to meet on an equal footing.
Here is the thing though: GW is very aware of the fact that the buy in for their cores games are high. It's the reason I think they made Kill Team and Warcry. They want you to be able to buy in slowly and surely yet still play.
I think getting smoked in your very first game is the norm, not the exception. That's not unique to AoS.
That also seems like a fairly small Gloomspite army even at 1K for what its worth, unless you are supplementing it with other minis in your collection?
I'd hang in there and keep at it, as it looks like you've quickly established target priority for the next game(his Hero's), and what unit to use (Bounders with their "flying" ability, decent MW output and rend make them great sniper type units for soft targets). That's huge, and particularly impressive to recognize that after your very first game. And your ideas for building to 2K seem sound as well. Hint: The Fungoid Cave Shaman is an absolute CP generating machine. You'll have no problems getting command abilities off, making your dudes that much better.
We've all been in your shoes. Its definitely easy to get into a doom and gloom funk, but I like the fact that you're already plotting your opponents destruction for the next game. I think you'll be alright once you get more games under your belt and start expanding your army out, as well as just understanding the game and your opponent better.
Just keep playing, my dude.
the list ended up right at 1k points but I was low on models for sure. 2x loonboss on cave squig, 10x bounders, 10x hoppers, 18x cave squigs, bought 1 cp for 50pts to fill out the list, and bought the squig rider battalion.
To fill out my 2000pts I've currently got the mollog and zarbag warbands from nighthaunt, and the Loonking and a box of grots at home ready to be painted. A mangler squig is my next purchase, and the endless spells shortly after. Long term plan is to fill out to 2000 pts of grots and squigs both, but starting with whichever is performing better in my games.
I would say that the khorne list was for sure an unfun list to go against because I had no defense for it. Once I have a wizard do I get any defenses against the prayers and judgements? or are the special snowflake "totally not wizards" guys just totally immune to all my anti-wizard stuff? (I was really annoyed when I got all his stuff under the bad moon and he was like "too bad I'm not a wizard. no penalty for me")
Priests and judgements of Khorne aren’t wizards/spells, so you can’t dispel them. But they can absolutely dispel your stuff. I know it seems unfair, but do what you said; target his priests and his army will fall apart. Oddly enough, Khorne mortals are kind of wet tissue if they don’t have heroes backing them up.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
In aos, hero sniping is both trivially easy and required. Most armies fall apart without their magic the gathering buffs that heroes give.
You want to be sure you can kill his heroes as fast as possible and protect your own. That is another tenant of listbuilding (particularly useful combined with ranged mortal wounds or high rend/damage attacks he cant save from)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/03 14:29:34
Hero sniping is an important tactic to be aware of and utilize when appropriate. While it is generally possible to kill any hero (or any unit, for that matter) you like if you put your mind to it, killing them can be more effort than it is worth. For most armies units without supporting heroes remain more effective than heroes without units to support. Also, the effort it takes to put 5 wounds on a hero often could have dealt significantly more damage to a unit instead. On the other hand heroes act as force multipliers, can be critical to an army, and could be entirely worth the extra effort to kill. Figuring it all out comes with experience.
Personally I view it as part of the game's tactics overall rather than an inherently bad element.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/03 19:28:12
Updated the first post after the weekend events. I've removed the Aelf listings in general including Wanderers and Darkling Covens since its quite apparent that what we've got left of the Aelves is getting wrapped up into the Free Cities book.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Hero sniping is an important tactic to be aware of and utilize when appropriate. While it is generally possible to kill any hero (or any unit, for that matter) you like if you put your mind to it, killing them can be more effort than it is worth. For most armies units without supporting heroes remain more effective than heroes without units to support. Also, the effort it takes to put 5 wounds on a hero often could have dealt significantly more damage to a unit instead. On the other hand heroes act as force multipliers, can be critical to an army, and could be entirely worth the extra effort to kill. Figuring it all out comes with experience.
Personally I view it as part of the game's tactics overall rather than an inherently bad element.
All good points I agree with.
I will add that a lot of the support characters need to successfully cast spells to force multiply and players can use their own Unbinders to counter those. Maybe I am just in a very anti-magic heavy meta, but I have found that relying too much on spells to boost your units results in disappointment. Usually the casters that have the most reliable casting rate are those that can get multiple pluses to their casting roll.
Overread wrote: Added the Ossiarch Bonereapers with their tentative October release date that I've heard being thrown around.
It's not tentative, it's noted as an October pre-order at the end of 'The Tithe IV: Legion' video.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Not really a "rumor", but attendees of the Open Day said that Beastclaw Raiders were stated to be in the upcoming Ogor book.
Is there any timeline on that book? I'm looking at building a BCR force for meeting engagements, and I'm not keen on buying the Battletome if its only going to be valid for a few weeks/months.
We mortals are but shadows and dust...
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