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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Cwcriner, I laid out above how it could logically mean that or something else. Though to be clear you are arguing that DD battleshock and save rolls can be re-rolled, correct?

yes, so long as they have not been already re-rolled.

cwcriner wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Cwcriner, I laid out above how it could logically mean that or something else. Though to be clear you are arguing that DD battleshock and save rolls can be re-rolled, correct?

yes, so long as they have not been already re-rolled.

Based on the way the Errata is written I would agree with cwcriner.

Would like to note I was originally pointing out the interaction with the Horrors Icon. The re-rolls part had not occurred to me at the time.

It seems to me that RAI would be that the only difference between a normal DD and one for battleshocks/saves would be the modifier based on casualties or rend respectively. But the way they worded it is ambiguous so it could mean they want DD to function as differently as you say. That would still strike me as strange, being inconsistent for no good reason, but illogical rules design is hardly unusual from GW. They need to update it to make things clear.

So the correct way to play it is that an actual roll of 1 gives Horros D6 back, but a DD of 1 would mean they still take Battleshock? That's what I'm getting from what is being said.

We don't know, because the wording can be interpreted multiple ways. IMO if you can get your play group to go along with it have things so DD 1's don't bring horrors back, it isn't like the unit or the faction needs it.

 Carnikang wrote:
So the correct way to play it is that an actual roll of 1 gives Horros D6 back, but a DD of 1 would mean they still take Battleshock? That's what I'm getting from what is being said.

that is the clear reading of the FAQ, as the ablitiy requires an unmodified roll of 1 and DD are explicitly a modified roll when used for Battleshock.

cwcriner wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:
So the correct way to play it is that an actual roll of 1 gives Horros D6 back, but a DD of 1 would mean they still take Battleshock? That's what I'm getting from what is being said.

that is the clear reading of the FAQ, as the ablitiy requires an unmodified roll of 1 and DD are explicitly a modified roll when used for Battleshock.

No, it does not clearly say that.

Yeah, saying it has been or can be modified is different than not being an unmodified. If i roll a natural 1, that an unmod 1, but if i had mods to it say 3, then its a 4, but it still is an unmod of a 1 that i rolled. SO does DD act in the same way?

Can we please not turn the AoS Discussion forum into YMDC? There is enough argument about this issue that we can at least agree that the intent isn't clear. Send the question to GW like I have and hope we get a response. Until then, if the issue comes up in your group, work it out amongst yourselves.

Yeah there is a section for that.

That's fair.

Unlike a game against Tzeentch

I mean all you have to do is petition your gaming group to not run tzeentch and you'll be fine

Just because you're incapable of having a basic human conversation with your opponent doesn't mean the rest of us are.

He doesn't even like AoS, so don't listen to him.

I have friends that have been waiting for this book for a long time, i'm not denying them a chance to play it. Like always i ask how comp of a game they want and build a list around that.

Just because you're incapable of having a basic human conversation with your opponent doesn't mean the rest of us are.

"Please don't bring those type of lists to the game day"

[Several players bring those type of lists to the game day anyway because rules let them do so]

[Wonders at what point the rules should be held accountable]

"Please don't bring tournament lists to game night"

Some players bring tournament lists anyway

We don't play against those players. Let them play each other

Tournament players have a good time playing each other. Casual players have a good time playing each other

"The game's balance is rough, but I'm sure glad we have the player agency to make concessions and make it work!"

 EnTyme wrote:
"Please don't bring tournament lists to game night"

Some players bring tournament lists anyway

We don't play against those players. Let them play each other

Tournament players have a good time playing each other. Casual players have a good time playing each other

"The game's balance is rough, but I'm sure glad we have the player agency to make concessions and make it work!"

that works only in place where there is a lot of players of each kind. Often you will have a situation when there is 10-15 people playing at the store, maybe 1/3 will be at the store at any given time, out of those 1-2 opposing armies are going to be in favour of their army or yours, so neither you or them are going to be willing to play each other, then they may already be playing someone, what means you will end up with having 1-2 people to pick from. And if the game is as pricy for you as other people around, very soon the meta shifts to everyone having some sort of tournament list, because it at least limits the number of people you don't want have a chance to win against.

And this is with a lot of people playing a game at a store. Sometimes the game you play is less popular and doesn't have those 10+ people playing. GL then trying to mix 2 casual and 5-6 non casual players playing against each other.

It's unfortunate that you both have unsavory gaming clubs where people don't want to play toy soldiers nice, but it really seems like out of the regular posts or people showing up in these threads, that your experience is way out of the norm, Karol and Auticus. I still remember you talking about how people would sometimes break eachother's models at the club you visit, Karol. Anything like that happen again lately?

It'll be easy to respond, just saying that we don't care about balance and get in to an annoying circular argument again and again on this thread, so let's just avoid that.

Striving for balance is a wonderful goal, but there's more to winning a game of AoS. On paper, OBR are the most broken overpowered faction seen evaaaar!!! but their tournament showings have been trash, and against a C-tier army(Beastclaw Raiders) while playing Petrifex I got dunked on because I couldn't move fast enough to win the game on objective points. I got stuck in my deployment zone by the BCR's speed and tied up for long enough, losing control of just one objective for one turn was enough to make me lose.

Mission and list-building play a part in showings too. Little Timmy's first batch of models he built shouldn't go against John's well-thought out machine of a list, even thought it's not tournament caliber, and have Timmy win on the merits of his list alone.

We don't play against those players. Let them play each other

Sorry but where I'm from that opens up an entire can of drama and hurt feelings and promotes cliques and aggression toward different groups.

We advertise a public event, and then ban people from showing up, there is a gamer-war about to go down.

hat your experience is way out of the norm, Karol and Auticus

Except that I have dozens of people who I talk to that confirm their area is similar, so no I don't think that my experience is out of the norm. If I truly felt it was out of the norm, and that I just lived in some bizarro world where things operated differently from the rest of the world, I'd probably not say much.

I think instead its being treated like dirt swept under the rug to hide it.

Bad rules and bad balance foster bad environments.

And this isn't to go back into circular discussion about balance. I realize the GW ride-or-die folks will be content with anything because balance isn't their #1 concern, so there is no point or reason to continue trying to discuss balance when balance isn't important to you. This was a counter post to what I'm told...

"the game is busted, but so what? just socially engineer your group to not break the game, because thats what reasonable people do".

Which is not an option for a large chunk of people

Congrats, you completely brushed over the entirety of my point and decided to go back in to a circular balance argument.

By the way, my anecdotal evidence of how communities are, are more valid than yours because I say so. We can keep this up for a long time, over whose anecdotes are more powerful than who's.

There is nobody in this thread who is saying that the game's balance is fine, or that GW shouldn't change anything. Stop touting that line around as if nobody here gives a damn about balance, it's the equivalent of covering your ears and shouting 'lalallalala.'

What people are saying is that discussing with other people is the way to handle the balance issues in the mean time.

We are done with this, he thinks AoS is completely unbalanced, let him think that and lets talk about something else finally please.

 auticus wrote:

Just because you're incapable of having a basic human conversation with your opponent doesn't mean the rest of us are.

"Please don't bring those type of lists to the game day"

[Several players bring those type of lists to the game day anyway because rules let them do so]

[Wonders at what point the rules should be held accountable]

Well then. Since they're following rules? You just need to make rules on what can be brought to game day.

You can also train them. It'll take awhile & might cause some offense, but.... If they insist upon bringing those lists, just black list them. Nobody play a game with them.

I want to derail this thread into something positive in regards to Age of Sigmar.

Considering that we are about to get Lumineth Aelves it only leaves one Aelven faction(Malerion). What other factions do you think we might see from the old world expanded into the AoS realms? We know Sons of Behemat is all but given.

Hopefully, no more. Time for new armies, not slapping new makeup on warmed up corpses. Honestly, whenever I read the lore on age of myth, I'm left thinking "I'd rather play THAT"...clockwork golem people from Chamon, firemagic lasers of the Algoraxi, all of it is way more exciting than Old World Empire Cosplayers of Sigmar or naked orcs.

Cronch wrote:
Hopefully, no more. Time for new armies, not slapping new makeup on warmed up corpses. Honestly, whenever I read the lore on age of myth, I'm left thinking "I'd rather play THAT"...clockwork golem people from Chamon, firemagic lasers of the Algoraxi, all of it is way more exciting than Old World Empire Cosplayers of Sigmar or naked orcs.

Yeah I pretty much agree with this. I find Sigmar much more compelling when it stands on it's own merits rather than delving into nostalgia.

Personally I find some of the old-new armies are diverse without being too shackled to the old themes. Looks at Daughters of Khaine. Basically all they took from Old World was some modern models and basic themes. All the new models were fresh designs not even part of the Dark Eldar old range.

Luminoth are the same - they will have some hallmarks of the old High Elves; but lets face it most of that is things like spearmen and cavalry -basically your basic troop types. Ossiarch Bonereapers are a unique new force and they've got spearmen and basic cavalry and then a hulking walking bone construct with a corps cradle on its back and a centipede catapult.


As for new forces I'd wager we've got the giants (which we don't actually know anything about save their faction name); we've got the Draconic/demonic influenced Shadow Aelves to come (which considering that the old Dark Elf line is now part of Cities of Sigmar, means a totally new force design there).

After that I'd like to think there's a Soulblight/Vampire based army to come for Death. Doing the same as the others and splitting off a chunk of models from Legions of Nagash and then expanding them with their own themes and unique units.

Depending how GW does that they might put regular undead skeletons into the vampire force; or they might leave them out which leaves the door open for a traditional skeleton army (which would be interesting in so much as seeing Ossiarchs competing for bones with necromancers).



After that I'd welcome Destruction getting another army to their roster.


Then - honestly - I'd like GW to stop for a bit. Even those swell the game to getting closer to 30 factions (There's already just over 20). At some point I think going sideways has to STOP and GW should start to go deeper. A lot of AoS forces are either big but full of old sculpts (eg Skaven or Seraphon) or they are small. Whilst small forces work it would be fantastic to see them get more variety. GW could also start adding mechanical twists to the game. We could see a big focus on artillery units and see every faction get a wave of new cannon, catapults and hotpot throwers etc..

ccs wrote:

 auticus wrote:

Just because you're incapable of having a basic human conversation with your opponent doesn't mean the rest of us are.

"Please don't bring those type of lists to the game day"

[Several players bring those type of lists to the game day anyway because rules let them do so]

[Wonders at what point the rules should be held accountable]

Well then. Since they're following rules? You just need to make rules on what can be brought to game day.

You can also train them. It'll take awhile & might cause some offense, but.... If they insist upon bringing those lists, just black list them. Nobody play a game with them.

My dude, that doesn't work with everyone. There are a lot of folks that they are fine with the restrictions because they understand what a casual narrative campaign is, and then there are a host of folks who believe if you aren't playing to max power all the time you're playing wrong. Blacklisting is reserved for those that actually assault someone, or use language thats highly offensive or something of that velocity.

Blacklisting someone based off of army choice causes community drama, and community drama repels people. My club's goal which has been its goal for over 20 years now is to promote public events (tournaments or casual campaigns); community drama repelling people... thats the opposite of what you want. As is helping to enforce cliques. You don't want cliques at war with each other. If we were discussing a private group of friends that played up at a store together, then everything that you all have said has merit and is feasible.

This club also runs public events for a number of other games and has done many games over the years, and AOS and 40k are the only ones that have really been this much of an issue.

In this very thread there have been several people that have bristled at being told they can't bring their triple keeper of secrets to a public event, for example. They know that its not really for casual gaming, but they want to do it anyway. (this is why I usually always reply when someone says "no one here is saying the game is balanced or fine", or "you just have to talk to people because people are reasonable and will understand not to do those things" because there are always several people that are saying exactly that or doing exactly that)

Tighter rules tighter balance - less of an issue. If the game enforces these things, you don't have to have these political campaigns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

What other factions do you think we might see from the old world expanded into the AoS realms? We know Sons of Behemat is all but given.

I'd like to see some original factions now. I'd like them to leave the rest of the old world to the old world game they are developing. (which I am very excited to see how it turns out, if the rules can be a bit less board-gamey than AOS I would probably jump on that)

 auticus wrote:


This club also runs public events for a number of other games and has done many games over the years, and AOS and 40k are the only ones that have really been this much of an issue.

Laughs in triple Dengar/triple Jedi(X-Wing); Warmahordes(is this game still supported by PP?); Marcus(Malifaux); Empire (Legion). -- These examples were/are either top tier or exceptionally bottom tier.

Making a statement like this is probably the most disingenuous thing I've seen on this forum. It could be you club has lower tier gamers who don't understand how to play games or maybe they don't know how to synchronize lists, but to say that your anecdotal experience of AOS or 40k being the only game with balance issues is absolutely inane. Maybe your club only plays Games Workshop games? I would bring up Runewars or some other miniatures games but they've been dropped and are no longer supported.

Yeah we had a HUGE Malifaux group when 1.0 was out, then the game balance went to hell, 2.0 came out, and 20+ players dropped it. Now no one plays it here anymore.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

 auticus wrote:


This club also runs public events for a number of other games and has done many games over the years, and AOS and 40k are the only ones that have really been this much of an issue.

Laughs in triple Dengar/triple Jedi(X-Wing); Warmahordes(is this game still supported by PP?); Marcus(Malifaux); Empire (Legion). -- These examples were/are either top tier or exceptionally bottom tier.

Making a statement like this is probably the most disingenuous thing I've seen on this forum. It could be you club has lower tier gamers who don't understand how to play games or maybe they don't know how to synchronize lists, but to say that your anecdotal experience of AOS or 40k being the only game with balance issues is absolutely inane. Maybe your club only plays Games Workshop games? I would bring up Runewars or some other miniatures games but they've been dropped and are no longer supported.

I never said anything of the kind. I said that the other games don't have as much of an issue, more specifically with (bolded for emphasis to clear up any confusion you may have on what I'm talking about) people showing up with adepticon powered lists to casual narrative public events. I never discussed other games not having balance issues at all. Our warmahordes when it ran was 100% all power gaming all the time, so that was never an issue. Battle tech, kings of war, whfb, conquest, xwing, armada, for whatever reason those players never felt compelled to break the game as much as the aos and 40k players like to do it when they aren't supposed to (non tournament events).

Opinion based of course but I also think there is a very large difference between the other games that I play, and showing up on casual night and getting paired against the triple keeper of secrets player. Maybe its that I don't enjoy 4000 point vs 2000 point games very much. Perhaps its the style of imbalance that gets to me.