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Slaanesh already lost to shooting list, which KO just got point drops, and they really couldn't crack defensive armies, maybe this is remedied by lost of stacking saves, but mechanics nerfs which was their defense, and losing realm artifacts to help. And since their table got increased, and with syll'esske stuff maybe being out of usability by this ghb, not much is looking good for slaanesh.

Honestly just redesign the entire faction.

It's really a shame that Tzeentch and Slaanesh didn't get the Khorne treatment with their points where you could spend it on summoning or buffs. That would have gone a long way.

Wild Rider Shields are absent from the Cities of Sigmar list...lol.

I don't know who pissed in the designers' cornflakes with Wanderers, but jesus. They really have a hate-on for them these days.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Wild Rider Shields are absent from the Cities of Sigmar list...lol.

I don't know who pissed in the designers' cornflakes with Wanderers, but jesus. They really have a hate-on for them these days.

Yeah...they kind of seem to be in a weird limbo state both lore-wise and models. Like, they clearly wanted to integrate them somewhat with Sylvaneth at some point, but that ship sailed and now they're literally living as their namesake, wandering about in a book as a misfit amongst misfits.

Overall, I would say Ironjawz cost changes seem about right except for the Weirdnob Shaman, I didn't think it was necessary to have points hike given that people only ever took one for the GHoG spell. Hopefully we'll see more Brutes in lists now that they're a little more cost efficient compared to Ardboyz in large numbers, and that Ardboyz can't double dip on FNP with Big WAAAGH!

Well Battlemage went up 20, but the Steam Tank came down 20.

So I broke even overall, Woo!

Wanderers is really sad. Like a good portion of the units are just sit still to get benefits, which sucks hard and doesn't feel good. A lot of things are over costed and could come down like 10-20 points. WWR should be around 100-110 for their paper thin armor and are only good vs a specific target. Eternal guard could come down 10 maaaybe, same with sisters and wild riders. Sisters of the thorn are probably at a good spot for being cav casters, but their spell does suck.

CoS just needs a redo. Make the units feel more integrated like they showed them off, instead of weird power pairs.

Carnith wrote:
Wanderers is really sad. Like a good portion of the units are just sit still to get benefits, which sucks hard and doesn't feel good. A lot of things are over costed and could come down like 10-20 points. WWR should be around 100-110 for their paper thin armor and are only good vs a specific target. Eternal guard could come down 10 maaaybe, same with sisters and wild riders. Sisters of the thorn are probably at a good spot for being cav casters, but their spell does suck.

CoS just needs a redo. Make the units feel more integrated like they showed them off, instead of weird power pairs.

I think part of the problem is that they have a lot of similar units effectively repeated across several units that made sense when they were separate armies but now feel disjointed with how they're all in the same book, even if you have "cities" as a way of incentivizing some over others. This is particularly clear when it comes to the "elite" units like Phoenix Guard, Greatswords, Executioners, Black Guard and Wildwood Rangers. There's some clear winners like Phoenix Guard for survivability and Greatswords for damage, while a lot of the aelf and duardin guys fall behind in terms of synergy and having too much overlapping design space between units.

So, how much has the ghb changed things? anything major?

BoK didnt even get an errata and nothing except FW changed :(

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
So, how much has the ghb changed things? anything major?

BoK didnt even get an errata and nothing except FW changed :(

The main change overall for factions was that you can't double dip on FNP saves now and realm artefacts are now restricted to the ones in the book, not the ones in malign sorcery, and they are a LOT tamer, so you won't see the usual ethereal amulet 3+ save combo or aetherquartz brooch spam anymore.

A bunch of point shifts and such. Big changes were regarding FNP's no longer being stackable, you can only use one of them if you have access to multiple. And the removal/limiting of Realm Artifacts. You can no longer use the Malign Sorcery Artifacts, only the much smaller list with 1 Artifact per Realm.

Those are the big changes I can remember off the top of my head. Could be others.

@Grimskul BoK, not DoK

 Thadin wrote:
A bunch of point shifts and such. Big changes were regarding FNP's no longer being stackable, you can only use one of them if you have access to multiple. And the removal/limiting of Realm Artifacts. You can no longer use the Malign Sorcery Artifacts, only the much smaller list with 1 Artifact per Realm.

Those are the big changes I can remember off the top of my head. Could be others.

@Grimskul BoK, not DoK

WHOOPS. That was my bad there, my friend plays DoK so I got that mixed in my head.

Petrifax got nerfed in the FAQ today.

Now rerolls 1s on saves in melee only. Pretty massive nerf actually, especially considering this is completely moot for Mortek Guard using their full rerolls.

As good as this is, I was hoping they would go further. Oh well, ill take what I can get!

 Grimskul wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Wild Rider Shields are absent from the Cities of Sigmar list...lol.

I don't know who pissed in the designers' cornflakes with Wanderers, but jesus. They really have a hate-on for them these days.

Yeah...they kind of seem to be in a weird limbo state both lore-wise and models. Like, they clearly wanted to integrate them somewhat with Sylvaneth at some point, but that ship sailed and now they're literally living as their namesake, wandering about in a book as a misfit amongst misfits.

Other way around. They wanted to split them off as hard as they could.

Personally, I'd not be shocked if a big part of the problem is simply there is zero interest in the army from the studio. It's a shame because some of the lore bits for them have been fantastic...but the problem is simply that they were always an 'elite' army intended to hit hard and fast, and the mechanisms for that lend themselves to not feeling great for games.

Kind of like warriors of chaos. Who have been god awful the entire time AOS has been a thing.

I don't know if Ossiarchs will change much. The lists I've seen are to abuse the strength of Katakros, while staying as Petrifex to get the Bludgeon CA. It will hurt Nagash/Arkhan Petrifex lists, but Mortis Praetorian Lists are still going to be Katakros with 3+ Rerolling Mortek Guard blobs. Now they'll just not hit as hard without Bludgeon.

 Thadin wrote:
I don't know if Ossiarchs will change much. The lists I've seen are to abuse the strength of Katakros, while staying as Petrifex to get the Bludgeon CA. It will hurt Nagash/Arkhan Petrifex lists, but Mortis Praetorian Lists are still going to be Katakros with 3+ Rerolling Mortek Guard blobs. Now they'll just not hit as hard without Bludgeon.

Yeah, it looks like Mortis Praetorians are going to be next in the spotlight, as OBR didn't get any points increases (instead they got decreases, though thankfully on units that needed it) and overall book-wise their units are very strong still, so it's just more character oriented rather than legion focused. To really challenge their dominance would have required points bumps on the mortek guard and the gothizzar, since those two are basically the wombo combo that keeps OBR in the top tables.

OBR will switch to Mortis Praetorians and keep their 3+ saves (tourney lists were already running Katakros anyways and he has yet to be nerfed), but still take a nerf overall because they lose access to the supremely powerful Petrifax command ability. Tzeentch got a small nerf, mainly from the gaunt summoner change, but their bigger problem in my eyes will be Lumineth. Lumineth will be running Teclis at tournaments, and Teclis ruins Tzeentch.


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 mokoshkana wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Now if only GW could get bold enough to change Slaanesh Depravity....

Slaanesh is dead in the water with this GHB. They will have a sub .500 win rate going forward.

That is quite hyperbolic.


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 auticus wrote:
Kind of like warriors of chaos. Who have been god awful the entire time AOS has been a thing.

The StD battletome fixed that, they work fine now.

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
So, how much has the ghb changed things? anything major?

BoK didnt even get an errata and nothing except FW changed :(

My army got only nerfs :( (FEC. Zero point changes, no stacking saves which I learned off in june...)

Well could be worse. Points didn't go up!

Not fan more rules. Terrain pieces have random rules, realm rules...aaargh!

Yeah, OBR are still going to be a royal pain to play against for many armies.

My main Bonereaper opponent plays Praetorians with Katakros anyway, so literally no difference there :(

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
OBR will switch to Mortis Praetorians and keep their 3+ saves (tourney lists were already running Katakros anyways and he has yet to be nerfed), but still take a nerf overall because they lose access to the supremely powerful Petrifax command ability. Tzeentch got a small nerf, mainly from the gaunt summoner change, but their bigger problem in my eyes will be Lumineth. Lumineth will be running Teclis at tournaments, and Teclis ruins Tzeentch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Now if only GW could get bold enough to change Slaanesh Depravity....

Slaanesh is dead in the water with this GHB. They will have a sub .500 win rate going forward.

That is quite hyperbolic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 auticus wrote:
Kind of like warriors of chaos. Who have been god awful the entire time AOS has been a thing.

The StD battletome fixed that, they work fine now.

Can you explain how the battle-tome fixed it? I don't play a lot of AOS and when I do it's usually vs Orks with my STD - doesn't seem to matter what mark I take or what faction I play as. The Ardboy is just a chaos warrior that has rend -1 for the same cost. It's just straight up unfair IMO. Warriors do seems to suck for me.

Fellow warriors of chaos player unite. Chaos warriors have been a joke faction for a long while now.

 auticus wrote:
Fellow warriors of chaos player unite. Chaos warriors have been a joke faction for a long while now.

Went back and read what you are responding to. Considering he doesn't seem to know the advantages Chaos Warriors have compared to Ardboyz I imagine they perform quite poorly for him; he is skipping some of their best abilities!

At any rate, StD allegiance has been in the upper third of tourney finishes since their new battletome. Hardly a joke.

There are chaos warrior and chaos knight builds that place in the top third of tournaments?

Pretty big move of the goalposts to go from the whole army to two specific units within it.

i'm talking specifically about warriors of chaos (and the chaos knights)

What specific build of that book are you talking is competitive? The one where you spam a ton of marauders?

I said warriors of chaos were a joke faction for years now. I meant the warriors of chaos builds.

Honestly I don't know what the dominant builds are, but that was always besides the point. Even if it was not, almost any army built around a specific unit is done for theme/fun and does not produce generally-viable lists beyond a very casual setting. Even for top-tier armies building around a single unit is in the minority.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Honestly I don't know what the dominant builds are, but that was always besides the point. Even if it was not, almost any army built around a specific unit is done for theme/fun and does not produce generally-viable lists beyond a very casual setting. Even for top-tier armies building around a single unit is in the minority.

Ok, but....

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Considering he doesn't seem to know the advantages Chaos Warriors have compared to Ardboyz I imagine they perform quite poorly for him; he is skipping some of their best abilities!

So what are the advantages of Chaos Warriors? What are these advantages that Xeno's is skipping? Please list them.

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, OBR are still going to be a royal pain to play against for many armies.

My main Bonereaper opponent plays Praetorians with Katakros anyway, so literally no difference there :(

Your army doesn't care about difference between -1 and -2 rend? I found that too PITA. 40 attacks at -2 rend? YIKES! My poor terrorgheists just vanished and flayers reduced to just their 6+ death save.

Looking at results from CanCon and other larger tournaments, STD aren’t in great shape.
They aren’t bottom tier by any means and require careful building, but they struggle like mad against top tier armies.

Also, nearly every single list I’ve seen for them allies in max points for either a solid hammer unit or an anvil unit.

They do have some solid units, but the internal balance of the book really is wonky as hell.


For me, nighthaunt and gloomspite didn’t really change except a few points drops here and there.

ccs wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Considering he doesn't seem to know the advantages Chaos Warriors have compared to Ardboyz I imagine they perform quite poorly for him; he is skipping some of their best abilities!

So what are the advantages of Chaos Warriors? What are these advantages that Xeno's is skipping? Please list them.

Defensive mostly. Rerolling saves while at 10+ models. 5+ Mortal Wound shrug.