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 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I've not bought a single book in 8th and rely on other sources. The only times I have gotten rules wrong was due to poor memory or a mistake on my part in not reading/understanding a rule properly rather than the sources being wrong. I 100% pirate rules and do it because I am cheap and don't want to spend the money on a product that I do not see the value in. I don't want to carry around books and keep tracking of all the FAQs, Erratas and updates is a nightmare that thanks to services like battlescribe I don't need to contend with.

Now if GW came out with a subscription service that just had ALL the rules and their associated updates as well as an actually good army builder all in one place I would 100% give them my money.

I don't belive that. you've not spent a cent on 40k this edition, and instead used "other sources" you'd continue using those "other sources" no matter what GW put out.

If GW releases a battlescribe equivalent it will be ridden with microtransactions and user unfriendly interfaces designed to sell you models. Look at warscroll builder.

I need to be able to quickly build my lists, and build opposition lists to theory craft. The design of the game means you cant lock this stuff behind a paywall.

I still buy the content bc I like the lore and the art and want to support my faction. But it's unrealistic to expect me to buy every single enemy codex to have a clue about what is going on in my games.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
I do wish people would stop advocating piracy on here.

Why? Battlescribe fills a void left by Games Workshop's greedy pricing. That void could easily be replaced by Games Workshop themselves if they were willing.

Dysartes wrote:Shockingly enough, because piracy is wrong.

I disagree. Illegal? In most places, yes, piracy is illegal, but I try never to conflate legality with morality.

Dysartes wrote:If you don't wish to pay for the material - be it points changes or whatever - you do not have the right to have access to that material. Either pony up or don't use it.

I don't claim to have such a right, only the ability. I should also point out that my problem isn't in paying. My problem is in paying what I feel are grossly exaggerated costs for the quality and usefulness of the product.

Dysartes wrote:This sort of entitled attitude is why tournaments should be making it a requirement that you bring a first-party source for all material you need to run your army - ideally a physical copy.

I actually agree that tournaments that use the official 40k rules should insist on competitors bringing the correct publications. Again, not for any moral concern, but you should always have an official copy of the rules you intend to use in order to settle disputes. I'm not sure why you'd prefer a physical copy over a digital one though. Games Workshop provide both, and neither format has more authority over the other as far as I know.

Dysartes wrote:Advocating using Battlescribe instead of buying the latest CA is no different than advocating buying a recast instead of an original model.

I can see that. After all, they both involve using a work in such a way as that the original designer receives no compensation. I still have no issue with either though as I find the prices Games Workshop choose to charge as unnecessarily high, greedy and prohibitive to many people's access to the hobby in a way that needn't be. That said, as well as using Battlescribe, I actually do own print copies of all of the publications I use, because can afford them and I enjoy the tactile experience, but I have every sympathy for people who can't afford to do so, and no sympathy whatsoever for Games Workshop, just as I had no sympathy for the music industry when they claimed that mp3 sharing would bring about the death of music, because I knew as we all do now, that they were completely full of "Nurgle's blessing."

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Eldarsif wrote:I have to admit I've never understood the complaint about Battlescribe's inaccuracy. I have occasionally created an army in Battlescribe and then subsequently combed over stats and points in comparison to my books and I don't think I've found any errors so far. Must be army dependent.

I've found a couple and reported them. It's never taken more than a day for the guys to fix.

I was looking at the idea of "subscription" and where we are at for electronic versions of "the game".

Note this is in Canadian funds at this time for electronic books:

Big Rule Book: $51.99

Chapter Approved: $39.99

Codex $32.99 ($857.74 for all 26 factions)

White Dwarf 12 months: $110.00 ($9.17 per month).

So if I was to assume Chapter Approved was redundant, I would figure a "basic" package would require the BRB, 2 Codex and 1 WD issue the last 3 items to be chosen at time of purchase or after, for one year at time of selection:

$127.14

These would be all electronic documents which will be updated as needed one to two months after new rules are release in WD (that would be the evil... er, "right" thing to do). May have to push for a minimum 2 month subscription.

I dunno, we can usually justify for around that price those large starter boxes, would be hard to argue if you go "month by month" for a low, low cost of $10.59 per month, no worse than a WD subscription.
Getting a codex can be as easy as the price of a cup of coffee of $2.75 a month.

<edit> The good thing is if they are "live" documents people who do not pay for them (pirate) would need to refresh their copies quite often, it would be more bother than being official.

It works.

Have any of you used the Age of Sigmar app for rules? That's what your 'One Source Digital GW Subscription' would be like. Lugging around 7 physical books is less of a chore.

 Lansirill wrote:
Have any of you used the Age of Sigmar app for rules? That's what your 'One Source Digital GW Subscription' would be like. Lugging around 7 physical books is less of a chore.

I used to subscribe to this and didn't think it was too bad. The reason I stopped though, my god they took forever to do updates! I waited for weeks after Soul Wars for the thing to update. Finally caved after something like 3 weeks and then cancelled my subscription.

The army builder in the AOS app isn't bad. The issue is having to buy the books in the app to be able to use certain things.

Seriously they need to just look at War Room for Warmahordes and do that. That is still the best army building app I've ever seen or used. Pay a flat fee (GW would probably be a subscription) and you get full access to books/lists for as long as you pay the sub.

GW finally had rules bloat in a good spot when they released 8th, but they just couldn't help themselves. They did the same thing with Kill Team. At first you just needed 1 small rulebook to play. Then they released Commanders, Arena, and now Elites. You now need $200 worth of books to have all the rules for what's supposed to be a small skirmish game.

 Toofast wrote:
GW finally had rules bloat in a good spot when they released 8th, but they just couldn't help themselves. They did the same thing with Kill Team. At first you just needed 1 small rulebook to play. Then they released Commanders, Arena, and now Elites. You now need $200 worth of books to have all the rules for what's supposed to be a small skirmish game.

....Arena isn't a kill team book, is it? it's a separate standalone board game I thought?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
GW finally had rules bloat in a good spot when they released 8th, but they just couldn't help themselves. They did the same thing with Kill Team. At first you just needed 1 small rulebook to play. Then they released Commanders, Arena, and now Elites. You now need $200 worth of books to have all the rules for what's supposed to be a small skirmish game.

....Arena isn't a kill team book, is it? it's a separate standalone board game I thought?

You need the core Kill Team rule book with everything released so far. However, Commanders and Arena have no interaction with each other. Too Fast is incorrect in the idea you need anything more than the core Kill Team rule book for rules. That is all I have I, and I have been playing Kill Team just fine. It is better to think of Commanders/Arena less like a necessity like codex with the BRB, but more like the Vigilus books where you might want them depending on what your group does.

As far as I have seen both locally and on the internet, Commanders has been largely ignored as a Kill Team add-on. I think Commanders was released in the wrong order and was/is too expensive buy in either through the Kill Team Commanders faction boxes or just buying the single HQ model separately. Most Kill Team players I have met/played do so because they can afford 40k at this level and spending $20-$35+ US for a single model just didn't happen. Ultimately, just not enough bang for their buck to even bother with.

As for Arena, that does see some play locally. I am not very interested in it since I am not one for tournaments, and if I wanted to play tight quarters 40k, I have a copy of Space Hulk already. I also thought that $90 was just too expensive for what was included. Arena doesn't require special units like Commanders, and I believe that a single box of had enough more or less for two players (if not I have some spare 40k crates and barrels and could probably figure something out for the doors. So if I did encounter someone that wanted to play Arena, I don't necessarily need to buy it.

It will be interesting how Elites work. I heard that the book will require Commanders, and if so, I don't quite know what I am going to do about it. Like I said, I don't have any interest in Commanders so I don't really want to pick it up even for use in Elites. I suppose at least one person locally will get it day one, and I can ask them exactly how entwined the rules are. If Elites absolutely needs Commanders, I will probably pass unless GW publishes an all-in-one book with everything. If Commanders is part of a few Elites missions but largely not required, I will probably pick up Elites. Either way, I suspect that vanilla Kill Team will always be available for play in my area as long as there are Kill Team players around.

I think people should stop trying to imply that Commanders, Arena and/or Elites are required for Kill Team. They are about a required as Kill Team: Rogue Trader. They add a little more to the game, but missions within their pages are limited and seem to only allow the core rules and that particular rules set to be used.