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Yeah but they are ONLY taken b.c they are cheap, and you only see 15 of them ina list, Kabalites are honestly terrible, they do next to no damage,, poison is a double edge sword, sure it works on T5+, but it doesnt work on T3, how many MC's do you see in game? I rather have more Guardians than Kabals and i won 80+ Kabals, i love my DE, but i hate playing with Kabals.
Every game, you know what my kabals do? Die, they get in the way to die.... yeah so fun. and so good. If Kabals go up, then guardsmen should go up too, and Fire warriors, and etc... (I personally think a large number of units needs to go up 1-2pts, but thats a different topic).
"This 6 point model doesn't do enough damage" is a point that I really have trouble wrapping my head around in these discussions. Taking up board space, capturing objectives and filling detachment slots is still enough utility to get value out of such a cheap unit - even ignoring that poison weaponry mostly works out to be equivalent to any other bog standard S3 or 4 basic infantry weapon in the game.
Whether Guardsmen should go up in value also feels like part of the same topic to me, but YMMV.
If the points go up players will still take them b.c of CP and it wont effect lists much at all, if at any. Its only 15pts.
Im saying they dont do anything other than CP spam, nerfing a unit b.c of CP when they are a bad unit already is a stupid idea. Fix how CP is gain, not units spammed for CP, especially when its NOT going to change the game in anyway at all.
Other units are better for the points, if Ravagers wasnt good you wouldnt see Kabals at all, it would be Wyches or Coven. At which point, those troupes are leaps and bounds better in almost every way, Coven stays on objectives better and takes up more space (can CP to regain bodies, can teleport, etc.., 4++ is good).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/10 19:34:06
Martel732 wrote: It would be nice if games really went like that. But IG are bombarding you with multi-damage shots and the guardsmen are preventing anything from getting close to the source. Their cost is certainly more fair in your scenario. But that's never the scenario.
If we're playing that game, then Raven guard have Imperial Knights or something that murderizes and ties up the nearest guard squad?
Okay, let's say that's true. What does tying up or even killing a guard squad even do for you? In the LVO winner, there are 80 of these guys between you and the Castellan. They just provide more than 4 points of value. End of story to me. Until they don't provide so much value, or are increased to a point that is more reflective of their actual value, they are an autotake.
All the FRFSRF and MMM stuff is icing on the cake. They can do 80% of their job with no guns. That just makes the damage they do cause even more aggravating.
"then the problem is the is it's whatever bombarding the Raven Guard with mutliple damage weapons."
Maybe, until you realize the IG players is paying almost nothing to keep all enemy units far, far away from the artillery units. Or, in the LVO list, a Castellan. So what's the real problem? The shooting units? Or the units making sure nothing bad can ever happen to said units that require almost no investment?
I don't agree with martel often, but I definitely have to here.
Something like a basilisk or a leman russ is NOOOOOT a balance problem without a screen. I play with multiple people who run pretty much pure armored lists with negligible infantry presence, and the fact that anything touching the tank basically turns it off forever makes it ridiculously brittle when it doesn't have an impenetrable screen allowing it to keep shooting for 3-4 turns.
In reality, guardsmen do not really need to kill anything. A much more realistic scenario is
"Here's your 10 intercessors in cover, shooting at guardsmen in cover. They declare their CT against infantry so their Dreadnoughts don't get to reroll wounds against the guard tanks, and use 2+ to wound ammo.
The guard player uses Take Cover with one of their 24 command points.
4 guardsmen die.
1 catachan basilisk returns fire.
2.7 intercessors die."
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Martel732 wrote: It would be nice if games really went like that. But IG are bombarding you with multi-damage shots and the guardsmen are preventing anything from getting close to the source. Their cost is certainly more fair in your scenario. But that's never the scenario.
If we're playing that game, then Raven guard have Imperial Knights or something that murderizes and ties up the nearest guard squad?
Okay, let's say that's true. What does tying up or even killing a guard squad even do for you? In the LVO winner, there are 80 of these guys between you and the Castellan. They just provide more than 4 points of value. End of story to me. Until they don't provide so much value, or are increased to a point that is more reflective of their actual value, they are an autotake.
All the FRFSRF and MMM stuff is icing on the cake. They can do 80% of their job with no guns. That just makes the damage they do cause even more aggravating.
"then the problem is the is it's whatever bombarding the Raven Guard with mutliple damage weapons."
Maybe, until you realize the IG players is paying almost nothing to keep all enemy units far, far away from the artillery units. Or, in the LVO list, a Castellan. So what's the real problem? The shooting units? Or the units making sure nothing bad can ever happen to said units that require almost no investment?
I don't agree with martel often, but I definitely have to here.
Something like a basilisk or a leman russ is NOOOOOT a balance problem without a screen. I play with multiple people who run pretty much pure armored lists with negligible infantry presence, and the fact that anything touching the tank basically turns it off forever makes it ridiculously brittle when it doesn't have an impenetrable screen allowing it to keep shooting for 3-4 turns.
In reality, guardsmen do not really need to kill anything. A much more realistic scenario is
"Here's your 10 intercessors in cover, shooting at guardsmen in cover. They declare their CT against infantry so their Dreadnoughts don't get to reroll wounds against the guard tanks, and use 2+ to wound ammo.
The guard player uses Take Cover with one of their 24 command points.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I seriously can't believe some people are still arguing that Guard squads are not overpowered for their cost. And I was a die-hard fan of IG up until I played a different army and saw how easy guard have it.
The current state of guard is literally indefensible by logic, only by woo and irrationality.
Your forgetting the first rule of guard club
Never admit how powerful your units are. Like EVER !!!
I must admit I'm looking forward to seeing the data from the upcoming ITC season with best infaction requiring pure lists.
I suspect it's going to be interesting watching the results and how people try to spin those results.
What results? You're so far away from competitive play you have no idea what the changes to BiF even means. The change means absolutely nothing in terms of what takes top 8 at majors, which will still be soup. The only difference now is that soup players won't be taking BiF awards as consolation prize for not taking best in ITC. As for mono codex power, Mono-Guard are completely shut out of top tables by Eldar and I don't see that changing as long as -2/-3 is so stupidly easy to stack.
As for dealing with FRFSRF bogeymen, I would like to introduce you to the humble Deathwatch Intercessor.
10 Deathwatch Intercessors in cover vs FOUR Infantry squads and two company commanders with FRFSRF starting at 30"range. 180 points vs 220 points.
Turn One
One dead guard squad. Straight up deleted with hellfire rounds and reroll 1's to wound.
Guard squads move into 24" range, engage FRFSRF on three of the squads. 54 shots, 1.4 wounds after save, let's be generous and say we dropped an Intercessor. Without cover, it's 3 wounds, so either way, still 9 models left.
Turn Two
Second guard squad loses 9 men, probably not spending CP to save one guardsmen, he runs.
Guard squads move to 18", let's again be generous and say they're Armageddon, so now they're getting full value on FRFSRF. 72 shots. Another dead intercessor, two more dead intercessors out of cover.
Turn Three
Third guard squad takes 8 casualties, 7 if the Intercessors have not been in cover this whole time. We'll say the Guard player spent a CP to make it a 1D3 morale check and they passed though.
Guard squads move to 12", FRFSRF on the three survivors from squad three and the untouched squad. 49 shots. 1.29 wounds. feth it, let's just say they dropped another Intercessor cause the Guardsmen need the help at this point.
Turn Four
Intercessors can easily clean up with a round of shooting + charging. The company commanders might now be tying them up for the rest of the game, but the Guard player in this scenario burned 1 CP, has been wasting 4/6 possible orders the whole game, tied up or lost 220 points of their own units, and in ITC gave up at least four primary points on approach, with a probable two more from either Butcher's Bill or Reaper.
You could MMM all four of the squads turn one into RF range, but at that point, the play is to move up 6", split fire at the two furthest squads, and charge the full strength one before they can get a FRFSRF volley.
And when your Guard squads cost as much as a DW Intercessor Squad, you can complain about how weak they are. But why stop there? A guard squad can't compare to a Leviathan, NERF THE LEVIATHAN.
See, you can't compare the two. It's silly to do so. Also please point to me the lists loading out 8 squads of DW Intercessors that are winning majors. Hell, point to me the list of any DW w/ pure intercessors squads. So in effect, that is not a fair argument. DW is not in any way breaking the Meta with their overpoweredness.
Also you gave all the boneses to Intercessors, and took the guard out of RF range. This is horribly skewed. LOS exists for a reason.
I'm not complaining about how weak guardsmen are, I'm pointing out that FRFSRF guardsmen are not some OP punch above their weight squad in a realistic scenario and even used MORE points in guardsmen than Intercessors. Yes, if you magically got them all into RF range then they will punch above their weight. But unless you're a mouthbreather, the Guard player is never going to get that opportunity.
Because the guardsmen don't start in RF range. And there's no way you're maneuvering 40 models without at least one squad of them being in LOS. If anything, this was skewed in favor of the guardsmen. The guardsmen have 40 points and two extra CP in this scenario and the best possible regiment tactic for FRFSRF. Cadian can't get rerolls on the move.
I didn't give DW 'all the bonuses', I gave them their chapter tactic and standard ammo for a T3 target. That's like complaining about me simulating Raven Guard getting their -1 to hit.
I have never seen a player in game make the choice to send intercessor squads after entrenched guard squads holding objectives. I wonder why.
Yeah but they are ONLY taken b.c they are cheap, and you only see 15 of them ina list, Kabalites are honestly terrible, they do next to no damage,, poison is a double edge sword, sure it works on T5+, but it doesnt work on T3, how many MC's do you see in game? I rather have more Guardians than Kabals and i won 80+ Kabals, i love my DE, but i hate playing with Kabals.
Every game, you know what my kabals do? Die, they get in the way to die.... yeah so fun. and so good. If Kabals go up, then guardsmen should go up too, and Fire warriors, and etc... (I personally think a large number of units needs to go up 1-2pts, but thats a different topic).
"This 6 point model doesn't do enough damage" is a point that I really have trouble wrapping my head around in these discussions. Taking up board space, capturing objectives and filling detachment slots is still enough utility to get value out of such a cheap unit - even ignoring that poison weaponry mostly works out to be equivalent to any other bog standard S3 or 4 basic infantry weapon in the game.
Whether Guardsmen should go up in value also feels like part of the same topic to me, but YMMV.
If the points go up players will still take them b.c of CP and it wont effect lists much at all, if at any. Its only 15pts.
Im saying they dont do anything other than CP spam, nerfing a unit b.c of CP when they are a bad unit already is a stupid idea. Fix how CP is gain, not units spammed for CP, especially when its NOT going to change the game in anyway at all.
Other units are better for the points, if Ravagers wasnt good you wouldnt see Kabals at all, it would be Wyches or Coven. At which point, those troupes are leaps and bounds better in almost every way, Coven stays on objectives better and takes up more space (can CP to regain bodies, can teleport, etc.., 4++ is good).
While I cannot agree that 1ppm increases/decreases would not matter, I do see your point. When CPs stop being dependent on who can field the cheapest Troop, most of the discussion around 4ppm Guardsman being OP and 13ppm Marine being garbage largely disappears.
But since CPs are likely to remain generated by detachments, the best chance we have for balance is slight tweaks in points.
I like to look at it by proportion, rather than actual points. For example:
A Marine is currently a point more than 3 Guardsman, yet the minimum of either (3x 5 and 3x 10 respectively) means the Marines are not only investing more per model, but disproportionately more. 195 for 15 Marines, 120 for 30 Guardsman. So the Marine pay 3x per model, but require 1/2 the models (instead of 1/3)
If Guardsmen became 5ppm, and Marines 11ppm, the ratios for points and required minimums becomes roughly the same.
You spend 150pts for 30 Guard, and 165 for 15 Marines. The Marines are still paying more for half the models, but spending close to the same for the minimum 3 Troops, which is far closer to fair than currently.
-
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/10 19:57:01
The CP is also icing on the cake almost. The physical barrier to access and cheap objective control is the real issue. I guess Castellans are reliant upon the CP, as well. That's why I said almost.
Martel732 wrote: It would be nice if games really went like that. But IG are bombarding you with multi-damage shots and the guardsmen are preventing anything from getting close to the source. Their cost is certainly more fair in your scenario. But that's never the scenario.
If we're playing that game, then Raven guard have Imperial Knights or something that murderizes and ties up the nearest guard squad?
Okay, let's say that's true. What does tying up or even killing a guard squad even do for you? In the LVO winner, there are 80 of these guys between you and the Castellan. They just provide more than 4 points of value. End of story to me. Until they don't provide so much value, or are increased to a point that is more reflective of their actual value, they are an autotake.
All the FRFSRF and MMM stuff is icing on the cake. They can do 80% of their job with no guns. That just makes the damage they do cause even more aggravating.
"then the problem is the is it's whatever bombarding the Raven Guard with mutliple damage weapons."
Maybe, until you realize the IG players is paying almost nothing to keep all enemy units far, far away from the artillery units. Or, in the LVO list, a Castellan. So what's the real problem? The shooting units? Or the units making sure nothing bad can ever happen to said units that require almost no investment?
I don't agree with martel often, but I definitely have to here.
Something like a basilisk or a leman russ is NOOOOOT a balance problem without a screen. I play with multiple people who run pretty much pure armored lists with negligible infantry presence, and the fact that anything touching the tank basically turns it off forever makes it ridiculously brittle when it doesn't have an impenetrable screen allowing it to keep shooting for 3-4 turns.
In reality, guardsmen do not really need to kill anything. A much more realistic scenario is
"Here's your 10 intercessors in cover, shooting at guardsmen in cover. They declare their CT against infantry so their Dreadnoughts don't get to reroll wounds against the guard tanks, and use 2+ to wound ammo.
The guard player uses Take Cover with one of their 24 command points.
4 guardsmen die.
1 catachan basilisk returns fire.
2.7 intercessors die."
The Castellan returns fire.
2 Basilisks die.
So if both sides have a Castellan, who runs out of screens first? Not the side with 80 models for 320 points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/10 20:00:19
Martel732 wrote: It would be nice if games really went like that. But IG are bombarding you with multi-damage shots and the guardsmen are preventing anything from getting close to the source. Their cost is certainly more fair in your scenario. But that's never the scenario.
If we're playing that game, then Raven guard have Imperial Knights or something that murderizes and ties up the nearest guard squad?
Okay, let's say that's true. What does tying up or even killing a guard squad even do for you? In the LVO winner, there are 80 of these guys between you and the Castellan. They just provide more than 4 points of value. End of story to me. Until they don't provide so much value, or are increased to a point that is more reflective of their actual value, they are an autotake.
All the FRFSRF and MMM stuff is icing on the cake. They can do 80% of their job with no guns. That just makes the damage they do cause even more aggravating.
"then the problem is the is it's whatever bombarding the Raven Guard with mutliple damage weapons."
Maybe, until you realize the IG players is paying almost nothing to keep all enemy units far, far away from the artillery units. Or, in the LVO list, a Castellan. So what's the real problem? The shooting units? Or the units making sure nothing bad can ever happen to said units that require almost no investment?
I don't agree with martel often, but I definitely have to here.
Something like a basilisk or a leman russ is NOOOOOT a balance problem without a screen. I play with multiple people who run pretty much pure armored lists with negligible infantry presence, and the fact that anything touching the tank basically turns it off forever makes it ridiculously brittle when it doesn't have an impenetrable screen allowing it to keep shooting for 3-4 turns.
In reality, guardsmen do not really need to kill anything. A much more realistic scenario is
"Here's your 10 intercessors in cover, shooting at guardsmen in cover. They declare their CT against infantry so their Dreadnoughts don't get to reroll wounds against the guard tanks, and use 2+ to wound ammo.
The guard player uses Take Cover with one of their 24 command points.
4 guardsmen die.
1 catachan basilisk returns fire.
2.7 intercessors die."
The Castellan returns fire.
2 Basilisks die.
The Helhammer returns fire, the entire Spacemarines Chapter is wiped out. While we are pulling imaginary things out of our butts, The Morkanaut around the corner comes over for a propa good thumpin, and gets mulched by Farsight, who was hiding in the trees.
dan2026 wrote: Greater Daemons need a massive rework in my opinion.
They already had a big points drop but it isn't enough.
They just dont work as is.
There is a fine line between being OP and obsolete with melee units. You want them to work you need redundancy because the only reason they aren't auto win units is because you usually get a chance to shoot them up before they start 1 shotting things in close combat. Also - the LOC is really good. Blood thrister is also devastating. Mortarian being as OP as he is really makes you wonder why you'd take anything else though.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
dan2026 wrote: Greater Daemons need a massive rework in my opinion.
They already had a big points drop but it isn't enough.
They just dont work as is.
Don't work how? What is the exact role of a Greater Daemon? Line breaker, meat shield, dakkabot, I honestly don't know.
Thats the problem I don't know what they are supposed to do either and neither does GW.
At the moment they don't do a lot and then get dakkaed to death. That can't be right.
Supposedly they work better in AOS, so maybe we should look there.
dan2026 wrote: Greater Daemons need a massive rework in my opinion.
They already had a big points drop but it isn't enough.
They just dont work as is.
Don't work how? What is the exact role of a Greater Daemon? Line breaker, meat shield, dakkabot, I honestly don't know.
They are linebreakers and typically delete anything they touch. They do that if you play them well or you get lucky with a deep strike charge.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Yeah but they are ONLY taken b.c they are cheap, and you only see 15 of them ina list, Kabalites are honestly terrible, they do next to no damage,, poison is a double edge sword, sure it works on T5+, but it doesnt work on T3, how many MC's do you see in game? I rather have more Guardians than Kabals and i won 80+ Kabals, i love my DE, but i hate playing with Kabals.
Every game, you know what my kabals do? Die, they get in the way to die.... yeah so fun. and so good. If Kabals go up, then guardsmen should go up too, and Fire warriors, and etc... (I personally think a large number of units needs to go up 1-2pts, but thats a different topic).
"This 6 point model doesn't do enough damage" is a point that I really have trouble wrapping my head around in these discussions. Taking up board space, capturing objectives and filling detachment slots is still enough utility to get value out of such a cheap unit - even ignoring that poison weaponry mostly works out to be equivalent to any other bog standard S3 or 4 basic infantry weapon in the game.
Whether Guardsmen should go up in value also feels like part of the same topic to me, but YMMV.
If the points go up players will still take them b.c of CP and it wont effect lists much at all, if at any. Its only 15pts.
Im saying they dont do anything other than CP spam, nerfing a unit b.c of CP when they are a bad unit already is a stupid idea. Fix how CP is gain, not units spammed for CP, especially when its NOT going to change the game in anyway at all.
Other units are better for the points, if Ravagers wasnt good you wouldnt see Kabals at all, it would be Wyches or Coven. At which point, those troupes are leaps and bounds better in almost every way, Coven stays on objectives better and takes up more space (can CP to regain bodies, can teleport, etc.., 4++ is good).
While I cannot agree that 1ppm increases/decreases would not matter, I do see your point. When CPs stop being dependent on who can field the cheapest Troop, most of the discussion around 4ppm Guardsman being OP and 13ppm Marine being garbage largely disappears.
But since CPs are likely to remain generated by detachments, the best chance we have for balance is slight tweaks in points.
I like to look at it by proportion, rather than actual points. For example:
A Marine is currently a point more than 3 Guardsman, yet the minimum of either (3x 5 and 3x 10 respectively) means the Marines are not only investing more per model, but disproportionately more. 195 for 15 Marines, 120 for 30 Guardsman. So the Marine pay 3x per model, but require 1/2 the models (instead of 1/3)
If Guardsmen became 5ppm, and Marines 11ppm, the ratios for points and required minimums becomes roughly the same.
You spend 150pts for 30 Guard, and 165 for 15 Marines. The Marines are still paying more for half the models, but spending close to the same for the minimum 3 Troops, which is far closer to fair than currently.
-
I personally want all (its something like 20+ units) cheap troops to go up in points by 2-3 each. But nerfing 1 for the sake of it being popular by a minor margin isnt enough to make other units more viable (unless you are taking 30-40+, but i mean MSU of them, 3x5mans, thats only 15pts difference).
dan2026 wrote: Greater Daemons need a massive rework in my opinion.
They already had a big points drop but it isn't enough.
They just dont work as is.
Don't work how? What is the exact role of a Greater Daemon? Line breaker, meat shield, dakkabot, I honestly don't know.
They are linebreakers and typically delete anything they touch. They do that if you play them well or you get lucky with a deep strike charge.
Ok, just looked at their statline. So what can't be accomplished with this thing? I wish I had flyers with that attack line. You can delete a tank a turn, or if you are lucky, a Castellan in a single turn. If you don't make your points back, you're choosing the wrong target.
dan2026 wrote: Greater Daemons need a massive rework in my opinion.
They already had a big points drop but it isn't enough.
They just dont work as is.
Don't work how? What is the exact role of a Greater Daemon? Line breaker, meat shield, dakkabot, I honestly don't know.
They are linebreakers and typically delete anything they touch. They do that if you play them well or you get lucky with a deep strike charge.
Ok, just looked at their statline. So what can't be accomplished with this thing? I wish I had flyers with that attack line. You can delete a tank a turn, or if you are lucky, a Castellan in a single turn. If you don't make your points back, you're choosing the wrong target.
Did you also look at how fragile they are? Lists that are geared up to shoot Knights to death just swat Greater Daemons away like nothing.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Martel732 wrote: The CP is also icing on the cake almost. The physical barrier to access and cheap objective control is the real issue. I guess Castellans are reliant upon the CP, as well. That's why I said almost.
Martel732 wrote: It would be nice if games really went like that. But IG are bombarding you with multi-damage shots and the guardsmen are preventing anything from getting close to the source. Their cost is certainly more fair in your scenario. But that's never the scenario.
If we're playing that game, then Raven guard have Imperial Knights or something that murderizes and ties up the nearest guard squad?
Okay, let's say that's true. What does tying up or even killing a guard squad even do for you? In the LVO winner, there are 80 of these guys between you and the Castellan. They just provide more than 4 points of value. End of story to me. Until they don't provide so much value, or are increased to a point that is more reflective of their actual value, they are an autotake.
All the FRFSRF and MMM stuff is icing on the cake. They can do 80% of their job with no guns. That just makes the damage they do cause even more aggravating.
"then the problem is the is it's whatever bombarding the Raven Guard with mutliple damage weapons."
Maybe, until you realize the IG players is paying almost nothing to keep all enemy units far, far away from the artillery units. Or, in the LVO list, a Castellan. So what's the real problem? The shooting units? Or the units making sure nothing bad can ever happen to said units that require almost no investment?
I don't agree with martel often, but I definitely have to here.
Something like a basilisk or a leman russ is NOOOOOT a balance problem without a screen. I play with multiple people who run pretty much pure armored lists with negligible infantry presence, and the fact that anything touching the tank basically turns it off forever makes it ridiculously brittle when it doesn't have an impenetrable screen allowing it to keep shooting for 3-4 turns.
In reality, guardsmen do not really need to kill anything. A much more realistic scenario is
"Here's your 10 intercessors in cover, shooting at guardsmen in cover. They declare their CT against infantry so their Dreadnoughts don't get to reroll wounds against the guard tanks, and use 2+ to wound ammo.
The guard player uses Take Cover with one of their 24 command points.
4 guardsmen die.
1 catachan basilisk returns fire.
2.7 intercessors die."
The Castellan returns fire.
2 Basilisks die.
So if both sides have a Castellan, who runs out of screens first? Not the side with 80 models for 320 points.
We were talking about infantry v infantry. Someone brought in Basilisks to win the fight with the Intercessors. But, let's zoom out a little. Three intercessor squads are going to pick up (DW) or cripple (everybody else) three squads of guardsmen a turn, that's a really big hole in the screen across a 6' front even with 80 guardsmen.
If the Basilisks are shooting intercessors, they're not shooting the Castellan.
Also, not getting 2.7 dead intercessors a turn from one Catachan Basilisk.
6 shots, 3 hit, 2.52 wound, 2.11 past a non cover save. Average of 2D. Which is about two dead. But actually picking up two intercessors off of two wounds after saves using 2D3 D is 4/9 [(2,2) (2,3) (3,2) (3,3)]. The other 5 combinations on 2D3 will Overkill the first or Underkill the second one. So really, you're firing a 108 point model to probably kill a single 18 point model and wound another. I think your screen will survive just fine in that scenario unless they're taking a whole lotta bassies and completely ignoring your Castellan/Leviathan/whatever AT you brought.
Guard don't spam plasma in ITC since scions are points pinatas, nobody is taking Autocannons, and Artemia hellhounds have likewise gone out of style when they got their much deserved Nerf.
dan2026 wrote: Greater Daemons need a massive rework in my opinion.
They already had a big points drop but it isn't enough.
They just dont work as is.
Don't work how? What is the exact role of a Greater Daemon? Line breaker, meat shield, dakkabot, I honestly don't know.
They are linebreakers and typically delete anything they touch. They do that if you play them well or you get lucky with a deep strike charge.
Ok, just looked at their statline. So what can't be accomplished with this thing? I wish I had flyers with that attack line. You can delete a tank a turn, or if you are lucky, a Castellan in a single turn. If you don't make your points back, you're choosing the wrong target.
Did you also look at how fragile they are? Lists that are geared up to shoot Knights to death just swat Greater Daemons away like nothing.
This is what I mean. Most of the time they can't survive to do their job.
So I think they need a new job. Or be made much, much more resilient.
They mostly only have a 5++ to protect them.
Greater Daemons also provide "character" aura buffs, unlike Knights. So in addition to being far easier to kill than a Knight, you lose a LOT more.
Impressive melee statline is irrelevant if you can never make it to melee. They could have Str20 with 100Atks and it would mean nothing if they fail a 9" charge from deepstrike
Galef wrote: Greater Daemons also provide "character" aura buffs, unlike Knights. So in addition to being far easier to kill than a Knight, you lose a LOT more.
Impressive melee statline is irrelevant if you can never make it to melee. They could have Str20 with 100Atks and it would mean nothing if they fail a 9" charge from deepstrike
They give a crap morale buff thats it.
Heralds give a much better S buff.
But like you say their problem isn't their power, its their resiliance.
Like I said in my opinion they just don't work with their current rules even after their big points drop.
I never see them used in ANY competitive list ever.
I did have an idea that maybe lesser Daemons should be able to take wounds for Greater Daemons bodyguard style. But this may be completely broken I don't know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/10 21:46:23
Is it me, or have we actually reached double digit pages since someone actually mentioned what they want to see form the FAQ besides the endless debates on CP and the "proper" point cost of IG Infantry Squads and Company Commanders?
Here's what I'd like to see:
Finalize the Matched Play "Deep Strike" rule with necessary Codex Erratas.
An actual answer to the Tempestus Scion & Auxiliary and Advisor rules question.
A newer better version of the Bolter Discipline rule that is best for Tactical Squads instead of Bikes, Terminators and Vehicles.
A solution to the Imperial Knights problems that nerf them just enough to let people use vehicles again.
I personally want all (its something like 20+ units) cheap troops to go up in points by 2-3 each. But nerfing 1 for the sake of it being popular by a minor margin isnt enough to make other units more viable (unless you are taking 30-40+, but i mean MSU of them, 3x5mans, thats only 15pts difference).
My suggestion would be to double the points of every unit in the game.
It would give a lot more breathing space in terms of tweaking point costs.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
A thought I had, and I'm sure it has been mentioned, but it feels as though the new wounding table doesn't have enough granularity and variance as other editions. I think the new wounding table is hurting this edition.
alextroy wrote: Is it me, or have we actually reached double digit pages since someone actually mentioned what they want to see form the FAQ besides the endless debates on CP and the "proper" point cost of IG Infantry Squads and Company Commanders?
Here's what I'd like to see:
Finalize the Matched Play "Deep Strike" rule with necessary Codex Erratas.
An actual answer to the Tempestus Scion & Auxiliary and Advisor rules question.
A newer better version of the Bolter Discipline rule that is best for Tactical Squads instead of Bikes, Terminators and Vehicles.
A solution to the Imperial Knights problems that nerf them just enough to let people use vehicles again.
There have been things sprinkled in and out.
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
I personally want all (its something like 20+ units) cheap troops to go up in points by 2-3 each. But nerfing 1 for the sake of it being popular by a minor margin isnt enough to make other units more viable (unless you are taking 30-40+, but i mean MSU of them, 3x5mans, thats only 15pts difference).
My suggestion would be to double the points of every unit in the game.
It would give a lot more breathing space in terms of tweaking point costs.
This is something I can get behind. Frankly, I wish the game would move to D10's or higher. D6's don't offer enough granularity.
I personally want all (its something like 20+ units) cheap troops to go up in points by 2-3 each. But nerfing 1 for the sake of it being popular by a minor margin isnt enough to make other units more viable (unless you are taking 30-40+, but i mean MSU of them, 3x5mans, thats only 15pts difference).
My suggestion would be to double the points of every unit in the game.
It would give a lot more breathing space in terms of tweaking point costs.
This is something I can get behind. Frankly, I wish the game would move to D10's or higher. D6's don't offer enough granularity.
Martel732 wrote:Agreed.
I dont often agree with you but yes I wholeheartedly agree.
GW needs to sprinkle in some d10 & d12 to add in a little more chance & randomization.
it seems to work for Titanicus
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/11 01:56:37
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
