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Ozomoto wrote:
Per model basis? Are you kidding me some games charge waaaay more for the same quality. In fact you will be hard pressed to find similar quality miniatures for cheaper. (A lot of the people commenting really don't seem to be factoring in quality in the comparison)

This depends really on the specific Box.
Usually people compare new GW stuff to older Boxes from other companies and say GW is better and therefore worth the price, while they forget that older Boxes are not the same quality and better than newer stuff from other companies but still cost the same.
Also people like to mistake quality with design and say that GW's model are higher quality just because they like their look more (while the quality is not really good).

Than it depends what a model is made for.
Like if a model is made to be placed as basic infantry in a rank&file unit anywhere but first rank, it need different qualities than the first rank models as models that are used in a small Skirmish game (and GW failed hard with the R&F design for some boxes)
Or if models are made to look more real and fit a specific scale over several different boxes (also something GW failed hard over time and there were not really a lot of factions were they kept the same scale/size for different Boxes)

Talking about HIPS in general and not about HIPS in the wargaming niche, GW's quality is on par with the rest of the industry while still being a bit behind for large model kits like tanks or large infantry (comparing 54mm models with GW models and they are just expensive without the quality one would expect for that price)

To me its more value than price

My main game is currently Guild Ball and the pricing is on a par with GW

However being a 6 a side skirmish game, each model contributes something to every game whereas Bolter Bob or Lasgun Larry #5 through #30 usually function as little more than wound sponges and/or difficult terrain to protect other models

Also picked up Gaslands which makes everything seem expensive

And of course GW actually come off quite well against PP who've managed to make worse models for more money

I don't really understand the per model example. Army end cost is what matters. If a game has models that cost 30$ per one, but I nede 5 of them to play. Then at the cost of an avarge w40k army, one could probably buy the whole game or at least most of its factions.

Karol wrote:
I don't really understand the per model example. Army end cost is what matters. If a game has models that cost 30$ per one, but I nede 5 of them to play. Then at the cost of an avarge w40k army, one could probably buy the whole game or at least most of its factions.

Per model cost, or per unit cost is a valid reference though. 'Army' cost is nebulous - what 'size' of army? 1000pts? 2000pts? 3000pts? Larger? Smaller? Kill team? What constitutes said 'army'?

What happens, also, for example if you are less interested in collecting 'armies', and more interested in collecting specific models for paInting, or various other projects? Also, per model counts here when it comes to expanding your collection. For example, I love the look of the everblight chosen cavalry models for pp's legion of everblight army. Now when it's pointed out that even with a 20% discount on wayland, it's £85 for five models, I find it very hard to justify that kind of expenditure (nearly £18 a model for a damned grunt!)

Another valid 'per model' cost is comparing things like characters, vehicles and see how they match up, like Abadoon from 40k, versus something like the Butcher unleashed (butcher3) from warmachine, or comparing cavalry units, like khornate juggernauts versus everblight chosen, and compare prices across various ranges from various companies. This becomes arguably more important in historicals where there are a Whole slew of companies making generic Roman/ww2/various historical period units.

Well a kill team army for w40k cost more then the same size killed team for other games. Save maybe for GK who have one box to buy. But everyone else has to buy 2-3 boxs, and that is before the cost of multiple books, not all other systems seem to require to play.

As point goes I think we can agree that 2000pts is the norm. But even if someone took something over sized as 3000pts, and some over sized army from another system, there is just no way for GW stuff to cost less.
It is just not possible when a tournament list cost 200-300$ for some system, and a random collection for any GW game will cost twice as much.

Karol wrote:
Well a kill team army for w40k cost more then the same size killed team for other games. Save maybe for GK who have one box to buy. But everyone else has to buy 2-3 boxs, and that is before the cost of multiple books, not all other systems seem to require to play.

Does it? Look at Infinity, for example. Easily £8- £10 a model in a game where armies are between 10 to 20 models in size, and and that is before the cost of multiple books as well. And terrain. Because in infinity, you need a hell of a lot of terrain before you get started.

Look at Privateer Press' company of Iron (if you can find it being played). Depending on the constituents of my force (for example, let's say I'm running my tharn ravaged/bloodtracker band) it costs quite a bit. In addition, Thanks to brexit, pp costs have soared. Both total, and per model counts factor in.

As for my kill team - mine is essentially reivers and intercessors. Pretty sure I have enough in one of the 40k 'easy build'starter sets or collections they put up.

Karol wrote:

As point goes I think we can agree that 2000pts is the norm.

Can we? It may indeed be a tournament standard, but not everyone plays tournaments. I prefer smaller games myself. Point was though, we were not talking about 'armies' as the best metric as opposed to 'per model' - what about those of us who have 'collections' rather than 'armies', or those of us expanding what we have? Per model comparisons have their place. Getting started comparison have their place. Expanding comparisons have their place. 'Total cost of an army' - sure, it can have value, but it's not the over riding metric you should go on.

Karol wrote:

But even if someone took something over sized as 3000pts, and some over sized army from another system, there is just no way for GW stuff to cost less. It is just not possible when a tournament list cost 200-300$ for some system, and a random collection for any GW game will cost twice as much.

It depends on what you buy. Betrayal at calth is something like over 1000pts- someone please correct me if I am wrong here (terminator commander, chaplain, dreadnought, 5 terminators, and 30 marines) and in terms of price is prettt decent.

And for what its worth, I've seen tournament lists cost twice that in warmachine. In WMH, you take 2 lists to a tournament, and while it's legit to have the same build and just swap casters, this very rarely happens as it opens you to hard counters - I priced my late mk2 tourney lists one time and it was eye watering. I played vlad2 'charge of the horselords' which is a list with a big focus on expensive heavy cavalry, as one of my lists (well over £300 iirc for twenty something models), and the other had no cross over units with it. If I remember right, I took butcher 3 (£40 on his own, with a discount!), ruin (£50), a grolar (£27), greylord cavalry (£40) and a bunch of other stuff in as well (might have been black dragon pikemen, which cost a fair whack when they were metal only, when I got them!. Let's also factor in these are prices with a 20% discount. Let's also factor in books, and the warroom app here too, because fair is fair.

The fairest thing to say is that this is an expensive hobby. I certainly won't defend gw and say they are cheap, but I don't think it's strictly accurate to go about and say things like 'there is no way for gw stuff to cost less'. The prices for gw can approach reasonableness, or cost an arm and a leg, depending on ones approach. The prices for other games, likewise, can also approach reasonableness, or can cost an arm and a leg.

 kodos wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Blastaar wrote:
10-20% overpriced? More like 100% or more. Basic infantry boxes, for example, would ideally be around $25.

{citation needed}

Where are you getting these numbers, besides "I want to spend less money"?

From Everyone else in the industry?

20-25 is the price for a standard infantry box, difference is just how many models it contains

like Mantic or Fire Forge Games sells 10-20 models per Box, Perry Miniatures, Conquest or Victrix are 40-50 models, and all are around 25

It is only GW who charges 40-60$ for HIPS Troops

But is this a case of GW having the wrong prices by charging too much, or the competition having the wrong prices by charging too little? After all, for all people talk about how awesome it is that other companies sell cheaper boxes it's GW that is the large and successful company while the competition is stuck selling niche-market historicals.

Does it? Look at Infinity, for example. Easily £8- £10 a model in a game where armies are between 10 to 20 models in size, and and that is before the cost of multiple books as well. And terrain. Because in infinity, you need a hell of a lot of terrain before you get started.

Well even if the models went for 10$ per one, then a 20 model infinity army woud still cost more then 3 times less then an avarge w40k army. It would cost less then some units sold by GW.

Terrain can be an issue, but from what I understand w40k requires specific terrain to be used too. Not saying it balances itself out, but does infinity require 3-4 rule books plus CA to be legaly played? By the way this is not a rhetorical question, I just don't know, maybe they require more books then GW.

Can we? It may indeed be a tournament standard, but not everyone plays tournaments. I prefer smaller games myself. Point was though, we were not talking about 'armies' as the best metric as opposed to 'per model' - what about those of us who have 'collections' rather than 'armies', or those of us expanding what we have? Per model comparisons have their place. Getting started comparison have their place. Expanding comparisons have their place. 'Total cost of an army' - sure, it can have value, but it's not the over riding metric you should go on.

I have seen this argument being used. But the fact is that matched play 2000pts is the thing that is being played the most. Plus I don't know maybe infinity or other games have lower point, and I know zero about points in other game systems, have low point games too. a 1000pts army, even an elite one like GK still would cost around 200$, from what I have been told, and am not excluding the possibility of being lied to here, 200$ is enough to build a real army for other systems.

I can't comment on the collecting thing, as I have never met or seen someone who bought models to collect them and not play with them.

And for what its worth, I've seen tournament lists cost twice that in warmachine

now my knowladge of tournament comes from talking to people and reading about them online, but your argument seem to strange to me. It matters little how much the box cost, or how much it is discounted for, if out of all the models your maybe going to use a few tacticals. And that is a big maybe. A tournament space marine list goes way above 300$. My army sucks, is no where near mid casual level and it still cost over 300$.

GW prices are resonable only if a priory we assume that their prices are fair for what they sell people, and i don't think they do. A friend of mine showed me some imported models he bought in Japan and the quality and detail are better then GW, and they do not cost a lot more. And japan models are not in EU, sold by a FLGS, but have tax etc added to it.


Or to make it really short. I agree that for other games super optimised tournament list can cost a lot of money, but they only reach the level of a non optimised avarge w40k army. A tournament w40k list can easily beat the cost of other games armies , with the cost of books needed to play it.

From Games workshop, my Grey knight list, which consists of only only 43 models costs £336 or $442 before you factor in any rules or something to transport them in.

If I had bought my Custodes from GW, it would have cost 352 or $363.

But these are outliers, because they are the 2 of the most elite, low model count lists in the game.


If I were to buy all of my current Tau list from Games Workshop, it would cost £546 or £719.24!
...hey but at least they chuck in free postage right...

Actually it would cost a load more than this, if it was from GW only, because I need 8 cyclic Ion blasters, which would mean buying 8 commander kits. That would be an additional £180, just to get the right guns. But no one would ever really do that, thanks to 3rd party resin casts or 3d prints.

Lists that rely heavily on spamming certain finecast kits can cost even more.

Yes GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames, but even more notable is how jarring the discrepancy between the cost of certain armies can be, due to how out of line the pricing of some of the range is.

Deadnight wrote:
And terrain. Because in infinity, you need a hell of a lot of terrain before you get started.

Infinity and 40k/KillTeam need different kind of terrain but for both it can be scratch build (or download the Infinity templates) and you just need 10$ worth of paper, glue and paint

You can also buy something like this 3-4 time this for 10$ each, if you don't want to design it on your own (or print it)
https://www.waylandgames.co.uk/23714/mototronica-scenery-pack.jpg

If you prefer something more solid one can also buy this for 150-200
https://d3fa68hw0m2vcc.cloudfront.net/700/104810134.jpeg

or this for several hundred $
http://www.brueckenkopf-online.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/MS_New-Paranoia-Infinity-Spieltisch-Miniature-Scenery-2.jpg

And I am not sure how much this 40k table will cost
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0nFnPvDo4bg/T1S3zrBVoEI/AAAAAAAAB_E/m5xTErj4xQ4/s1600/arminius_table-(4).jpg

Karol wrote:

Not saying it balances itself out, but does infinity require 3-4 rule books plus CA to be legaly played? By the way this is not a rhetorical question, I just don't know, maybe they require more books then GW.

Infinity rules a free to download
https://infinitythegame.com/resources/downloads

 Peregrine wrote:

But is this a case of GW having the wrong prices by charging too much, or the competition having the wrong prices by charging too little? After all, for all people talk about how awesome it is that other companies sell cheaper boxes it's GW that is the large and successful company while the competition is stuck selling niche-market historicals.

GW is large and successful for several reasons, charging high prices is for sure one but the first multi-pose HIPS boxes GW sold were also in the same price range. The original Cadian box here had 20 models for less than the current 10 model box.

But than, historical kits won't sell for a much higher price anyway as the market is different.

You got twenty Cadians per box, more than twenty years ago.

When a pack of cigarettes cost £3 and Noel Edmonds had a viable career.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
You got twenty Cadians per box, more than twenty years ago.

TIL 2003 was more than 20 years ago...

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
You got twenty Cadians per box, more than twenty years ago.

TIL 2003 was more than 20 years ago...

Do apologize.

So sixteen years ago, when a pack of cigarettes was £4 and Noel Edmonds had a viable career.

I go back and forth when it comes to GW pricing. Sometimes I feel that it is reasonable, decent value and there are other times when I see (Usually small individual figures) and just think this is a bloody rip off!

Karol wrote:

Does it? Look at Infinity, for example. Easily £8- £10 a model in a game where armies are between 10 to 20 models in size, and and that is before the cost of multiple books as well. And terrain. Because in infinity, you need a hell of a lot of terrain before you get started.

Well even if the models went for 10$ per one, then a 20 model infinity army woud still cost more then 3 times less then an avarge w40k army. It would cost less then some units sold by GW.

Comparing full games of 40K with Infinity is rather silly, especially when GW have kindly given pre-packages sets for Kill Team which are clearly what you should be comparing with Infinity.

So what are the relative prices of a Kill Team and an Infinity army?

happy_inquisitor wrote:

So what are the relative prices of a Kill Team and an Infinity army?

Kill Team would be 40 to 130$ (31 to 100€ not sure about the $ prices) depending on list and faction for 100 point (GK or Harli can be done with one Box, some others would need 2 or more Boxes and it depends on the single Box price as Harlequin are 31€ while others are 50€)

Infinity is ~ 90$ (70€) for a 300 point list, but all metal models (if quality of the models is an argument)

 Hollow wrote:
I go back and forth when it comes to GW pricing. Sometimes I feel that it is reasonable, decent value and there are other times when I see (Usually small individual figures) and just think this is a bloody rip off!

That's because they do too. Some boxes, like the Stormcast repacks, are great value in terms of Points Per Dollar (which is what actually matters in a points balanced wargame), some like...basically any genestealer cult box are TERRIBLE value.

Then you have thing like the Witch Aelves box, which is not only terrible in terms of Points per dollar AND models per dollar, it's also just 1 sprue doubled up. You don't even get 10 actual sculpts.

happy_inquisitor wrote:

Karol wrote:

Does it? Look at Infinity, for example. Easily £8- £10 a model in a game where armies are between 10 to 20 models in size, and and that is before the cost of multiple books as well. And terrain. Because in infinity, you need a hell of a lot of terrain before you get started.

Well even if the models went for 10$ per one, then a 20 model infinity army woud still cost more then 3 times less then an avarge w40k army. It would cost less then some units sold by GW.

Comparing full games of 40K with Infinity is rather silly, especially when GW have kindly given pre-packages sets for Kill Team which are clearly what you should be comparing with Infinity.

So what are the relative prices of a Kill Team and an Infinity army?

Pretty similar actually. People love to spout the line about Infinity being "cheaper", but it really isn't unless you're buying stuff from box breakdowns.

People don't seem to understand that Infinity, while not a "mass battle game"? It is very much a game of "efficient profiles vs inefficient profiles".

And Karol's point about terrain is exceedingly important. It is not a game for bare tables. It's why the "Army Packs" and "2 Player Battle Boxes" include cardboard terrain stuff.

 Kanluwen wrote:

happy_inquisitor wrote:

Karol wrote:

Does it? Look at Infinity, for example. Easily £8- £10 a model in a game where armies are between 10 to 20 models in size, and and that is before the cost of multiple books as well. And terrain. Because in infinity, you need a hell of a lot of terrain before you get started.

Well even if the models went for 10$ per one, then a 20 model infinity army woud still cost more then 3 times less then an avarge w40k army. It would cost less then some units sold by GW.

Comparing full games of 40K with Infinity is rather silly, especially when GW have kindly given pre-packages sets for Kill Team which are clearly what you should be comparing with Infinity.

So what are the relative prices of a Kill Team and an Infinity army?

Pretty similar actually. People love to spout the line about Infinity being "cheaper", but it really isn't unless you're buying stuff from box breakdowns.

People don't seem to understand that Infinity, while not a "mass battle game"? It is very much a game of "efficient profiles vs inefficient profiles".

And Karol's point about terrain is exceedingly important. It is not a game for bare tables. It's why the "Army Packs" and "2 Player Battle Boxes" include cardboard terrain stuff.

In my local group of close-knit friends, we have 4 3d printers, I have one, another buddy has two, and another has one. We trade off what we are printing and share printing/basing/painting responsibility for our tables. It is through this is the ONLY way i would ever consider playing infinity. Its designed for 3d, multi-level, multi-tier terrain with lots of bridges and walkways on elevation. if we didn't have tons of 3d printers, we wouldn't even try it, honestly.

The terrain cost is REAL in that game.

Karol wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Mike712 wrote:

Apparently GW were losing a fortune on selling bits.

I doubt that.

They could be cast to order and GW staff could buy stuff for £30/kg (50p Crisis Suits baybay! ). If anything they got rid of it to streamline their catalogue and clear warehouse space rather than it was haemorrhaging money.

I think that depends on what you considering losing. If you think that it is normal to have to buy 4 boxs of havocks to have one unit armed with them, then anything that lets people do it with one box and some bits is going to be considered bad.

To be fair warehouse space is probably the most expensive part of the whole process.

happy_inquisitor wrote:

Karol wrote:

Does it? Look at Infinity, for example. Easily £8- £10 a model in a game where armies are between 10 to 20 models in size, and and that is before the cost of multiple books as well. And terrain. Because in infinity, you need a hell of a lot of terrain before you get started.

Well even if the models went for 10$ per one, then a 20 model infinity army woud still cost more then 3 times less then an avarge w40k army. It would cost less then some units sold by GW.

Comparing full games of 40K with Infinity is rather silly, especially when GW have kindly given pre-packages sets for Kill Team which are clearly what you should be comparing with Infinity.

So what are the relative prices of a Kill Team and an Infinity army?

Don't you still need a full roster for kill team, as you pick models for it before the game? but if we compare boxs GW starter for kill team seem to avarge around 35 £ and infnity around 40£. That is hardly less considering kill team requires you to buy whole boxs to get a few models, and multiple rule books, when ifinity rules seem to be free. I maybe wrong here though. I never played infinity people just told me about it.

Karol wrote:

Don't you still need a full roster for kill team, as you pick models for it before the game? but if we compare boxs GW starter for kill team seem to avarge around 35 £ and infnity around 40£. That is hardly less considering kill team requires you to buy whole boxs to get a few models, and multiple rule books, when ifinity rules seem to be free. I maybe wrong here though. I never played infinity people just told me about it.

Last i recall the team builder is free for infinity, rules are purchased.

comparing starter to starter though.

Infinity: Operation cold front, is about 80$ comes with a paper board, paper terrain, and nice metal models for two teams, and if i recall paper back cold front specific rule book.

Kill teams actual starter: appears to be gone, so its hard to compare, but CORE game is about 40, and one team about 50$ + plastic terrain no board.

imho kill teams is way more expensive overall to start, but you do get nicer terrain, and can reuse models you already have. while infinity starters are kinda more for the models as they are generally new sculpts that people want. :/

OK, so yes, GW models aren't cheap. I'm not going to try to say they are inexpensive. But, I will go on record saying they are worth the money.

Let's jump out of wargaming for just a minute and head on over to the world of Bandai and Gundam models. Yes, Bandai pumps out many new models each year. I'm not 100% sure how they are able to create new molds so quickly. I do know that Build Fighters and Build Divers are based on old models where they can reuse a lot of old parts and only make a few new parts.

But, let's look at the quality compared to GW... even the quality of Real Grade Gundam models which can have many tiny pieces. Are any Gundam models as detailed as GW models? None that I've seen... not even close especially when you compare scale. Only the high end Gundam Kits (I believe Ver. Ka and above) even come with water slide transfers. Most of the time, it's stickers or dry rub transfers.

Is there another company, besides GW, that can produce plastic kits (plastic being the key here as I simply don't work with metal and don't like to have to deal with resin unless it's absolutely the only way to get a model) with as much detail as GW. Is there another company that supplies water slide transfers with the vast majority of their kits?

Is GW expensive? Absolutely! Are they the most expensive tabletop wargame company out there? Probably. Are their models worth what they charge by comparison to other models from other companies that still cast in metal and/or resin, still only provide stickers if any markings with their kits? From the point of view of a person who has worked with other model kits (wargaming and other) as well as GW, I think GW's models are definitely worth the money.

Just my $0.02

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:
Are any Gundam models as detailed as GW models?

Is there another company, besides GW, that can produce plastic kits with as much detail as GW.

Current Gundam models are designed hand-in-hand with the mecha, and vice-versa. That is Bandai has a hand in steering Gundam mecha design to things that Bandai can produce. It's pure merchandising. That said, if you look at Unicorn, they can do some very cool things. Also "detail" means different things besides surface greebling.

Kingdom Death has amazing plastic kits that are better than GW in terms of detail, pose and proportion.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kingdom Death has amazing plastic kits that are better than GW in terms of detail, pose and proportion.

Its the same people that make wyrd stuff no?

Wyrd has some absolutely insane plastic kits.

which is interesting as single figure from wyrd is about 11-12$ while Kingdom death is at 25$

The markups from Branding is real. (actually that may or may not be fair as those 11-12$ kits arent sell through or limited all the time)

 Desubot wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kingdom Death has amazing plastic kits that are better than GW in terms of detail, pose and proportion.

Its the same people that make wyrd stuff no?

Wyrd has some absolutely insane plastic kits.

which is interesting as single figure from wyrd is about 11-12$ while Kingdom death is at 25$

The markups from Branding is real. (actually that may or may not be fair as those 11-12$ kits arent sell through or limited all the time)

Yeah, same factory (WGF). The Kingdom Death figures are a bit larger (35-40mm vs 30-33mm), and they may have some rules content content included, both of which bump the cost a little bit. The main thing is that I believe Wyrd may have a larger customer base / production runs than Kingdom Death to spread costs across. That said, Kingdom Death stuff can go on sale up to 50% off, so the price can be very comparable.

No problem with paying more as long as it's the best.

And yes, it's the best.

 Ishagu wrote:
No problem with paying more as long as it's the best.

And yes, it's the best.

Definately good, but not the best.

I mean, I think they're the best.

I'm well aware of other companies, haven't the slightest interest.#

But, subjective innit?

 Ishagu wrote:
No problem with paying more as long as it's the best.

And yes, it's the best.

Except they are not, atleast not in the field of resin.....