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2019/05/07 20:55:08
Subject: Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
Ishagu wrote: No problem with paying more as long as it's the best.
And yes, it's the best.
Except they are not, atleast not in the field of resin.....
In the field of Boutique or high end miniatures for figure painting, no way in hell. gw is not even close for scale/figure quality when it comes to resin miniatures besides maybe their highest end character series.
In the field of "War gaming" debatably one of the best if not a literal industry leader
Value per model is stupid subjective. different people value different things for different reasons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/07 20:55:21
Ishagu wrote: No problem with paying more as long as it's the best.
And yes, it's the best.
Except they are not, atleast not in the field of resin.....
In the field of Boutique or high end miniatures for figure painting, no way in hell. gw is not even close for scale/figure quality when it comes to resin miniatures besides maybe their highest end character series.
In the field of "War gaming" debatably one of the best if not a literal industry leader
Value per model is stupid subjective. different people value different things for different reasons.
True, they are probably one of the best overall but they have their shortcomings
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/05/07 21:38:16
Subject: Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2019/05/07 23:00:58
Subject: Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
Galas wrote: Yeah I don't think "The most popular= the best" but GW just has no competitor at their level and scale.
Even if there are other companies with better prices, better rules, etc... theres just not direct competitor as well rounded as GW.
That probably has to do with the lack of big names in the wargames market.
Which is cyclical. 40k Does to tabletop wargaming what Magic the Gathering does to...tabletop gaming in general. It totally warps the market around it, strangling out small/startup products/companies just by existing at the scale it does.
2019/05/08 00:42:59
Subject: Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
Ishagu wrote: No problem with paying more as long as it's the best.
And yes, it's the best.
Except they are not, atleast not in the field of resin.....
In the field of Boutique or high end miniatures for figure painting, no way in hell. gw is not even close for scale/figure quality when it comes to resin miniatures besides maybe their highest end character series.
In the field of "War gaming" debatably one of the best if not a literal industry leader
Agree. GW is a wargames miniatures manufacturer that does good work, assuming that you want "heroic" (semi-deformed) models with a LOT of surface greebling texture.
As a resin manufacturer, GW sells adequate product at excessive price. Their product is clearly inferior to Arena Rex and Kingdom Death resin, to say nothing of the best boutique work out of Japan.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 00:44:20
Ishagu wrote: GW are the best. It's not a singular category that decides this.
They have incredible models, regular releases, huge variety, great presence, big fanbase, etc.
All these things combined make them the best. There's no competition.
No competition of similar scale, sure. I wouldn't say they're the "best" though. The last 2-3 years of releases are more often than not over-decorated, soulless and generally subpar from a design/artistic standpoint, though after acquiring a few WM/H kits on sale, GW kits are definitely easier to clean and prep. Regular releases, variety- yeah, they've got that. The rules, as always are a mess. The fanbase is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy at this point- it has less to do with the quality of their games and minis and more to do with a critical mass that perpetuates itself.
Whether GW is the most expensive or not may be beside the point. The value just isn't there. And by value, I don't mean the value we find in their products, but the production cost compared with retail price.
2019/05/08 07:38:24
Subject: Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
A box or two a month is fine price wise for folk with a small amount of disposable income. (I always buy or order at a brick and mortar gw store too, they're fabulous),
Pricing is crazy for the kids though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 10:04:23
2019/05/08 13:40:18
Subject: Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
I just calculated. x12 130mm round flat black base's would cost 144$ NZ. Probably would cost about a dollarr to make them or less..But 12 round peices of plastic 130mm in size, no detailing or any thing, unless you wanna call the matte texture on top detail.
At least it came in a fancy see through plastic bag with citadel logo.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/08 13:45:10
Stormatious wrote: I just calculated. x12 130mm round flat black base's would cost 144$ NZ. Probably would cost about a dollarr to make them or less..But 12 round peices of plastic 130mm in size, no detailing or any thing, unless you wanna call the matte texture on top detail.
At least it came in a fancy see through plastic bag with citadel logo.
I'm sure some chinese lads could cut you a better deal, heck they might even throw in a fudge world baggy
note for the hard of thinking I'm of course joking but I'm sure legit version can be had way cheaper, unless GW are looking to copyright basic shapes
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 15:50:27
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
2019/05/08 16:09:01
Subject: Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
Well its expensive, but the quality of packaging and the bag it self with CITADEL written nicely on the side makes it all good. Cant believe The shop ordered 1 base all the way from the uk and charged 12 dollers, cant GW stock up on bases, or tell the customer, come back another time when we have some in, instead of charging you 12 dollars to get this 1 little round base shipped all the way from the other side of the world holy bananas? gak. But as i say, the see through bag with citadel on the side made it all worth while.
Remember i wasn't the one who went in the shop, i got some one else to go there, didn't know they ended up having to order one for 12 bux from the other side of the globe, would have been pretty hard for them to reach inside of one of the boxes and grab a base out for a customer instead of this 1 week ship sailing 12 doller nonsense, do gw think we are caviar eating money toilet paper using people?
Any way i am now in complain mode which is what i wasn't supposed to do. So ill leave it at that.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/08 16:12:48
Stormatious wrote:Well its expensive, but the quality of packaging and the bag it self with CITADEL written nicely on the side makes it all good.
Not sure if serious...
Nurglitch wrote:It's kind of interesting to see what happens when people offer a cheaper alternative. Take Mantic, for example.
Mantic are an interesting example. I ordered a bunch of Ghouls from them when WH was still a thing because GW Ghouls were ridiculously expensive for a large unit. The models were OK but extremely restricted in pose, annoying to clean, difficult to assemble because of how the torso joined the legs, and impossible to rank up. I think they've gotten a little better recently but it did show that there are a lot of htings GW does right with its models that you don't always notice. I'd argue price isn't one of those things though.
2019/05/09 09:35:19
Subject: Re:Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
You guys are ignoring the costs of initially designing the model and getting it to production stage.
A kit like a Knight could cost 7 figures to design and get to mass production. There are substantial investments - the mass production is cheap but they need to sell a lot to break even. Some kits don't even turn in a profit.
This is why intellectual property is so important to GW. Only the ignorant look at something like the cost of plastic and declare the product to be of no value.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 09:39:34
-~Ishagu~-
2019/05/09 13:53:35
Subject: Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
Stormatious wrote:Well its expensive, but the quality of packaging and the bag it self with CITADEL written nicely on the side makes it all good.
Not sure if serious...
Nurglitch wrote:It's kind of interesting to see what happens when people offer a cheaper alternative. Take Mantic, for example.
Mantic are an interesting example. I ordered a bunch of Ghouls from them when WH was still a thing because GW Ghouls were ridiculously expensive for a large unit. The models were OK but extremely restricted in pose, annoying to clean, difficult to assemble because of how the torso joined the legs, and impossible to rank up. I think they've gotten a little better recently but it did show that there are a lot of things GW does right with its models that you don't always notice. I'd argue price isn't one of those things though.
Very much. When I was in financial sales we were told to sell on value rather than cost, on the notion that as 'financial advisors' we could provide more than just the sale of financial products. Complete bull, but I think it's a good notion for GW products in that people feel like they're getting value. People who complain about the cost aren't really complaining about the cost so much as the lack of perceived value in what they're getting.
2019/05/09 13:55:59
Subject: Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
Crimson Devil wrote: It's not ignoring so much as people simply don't respect the work it takes to produce something like this.
Yeah, unfortunately it seems a lot of people are ignorant and entitled and refuse to grasp the full picture.
To add to the topic, no GW is not the most expensive wargame because GW isn't a wargame. GW makes various wargames, some of which are incredibly cheap and some of which can be expensive. I can play Kill team for 20 quid. A large game of 40k costs more, but again it depends on the army.
I was spending more on Xwing than 40k when I was trying to stay competitive.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/09 14:30:19
-~Ishagu~-
2019/05/09 15:17:08
Subject: Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
Ishagu wrote: You guys are ignoring the costs of initially designing the model and getting it to production stage.
A kit like a Knight could cost 7 figures to design and get to mass production. There are substantial investments - the mass production is cheap but they need to sell a lot to break even. Some kits don't even turn in a profit.
This is why intellectual property is so important to GW. Only the ignorant look at something like the cost of plastic and declare the product to be of no value.
And some people ignore that this is the same for all miniature and scale model companies out there
Nothing unique to GW, although it is much cheaper for them than for some others as they do everything in house and don't need "external" companies for the job
So really I don't know why this should be an argument here as those costs are the same for all others too. So it is not forgotten but just ignored (same as we are not talking about packaging, storage cost, Christmas bonus for employees and all those things that everyone has to pay)
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2019/05/09 15:57:36
Subject: Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
Ishagu wrote: You guys are ignoring the costs of initially designing the model and getting it to production stage. A kit like a Knight could cost 7 figures to design and get to mass production. There are substantial investments - the mass production is cheap but they need to sell a lot to break even. Some kits don't even turn in a profit. This is why intellectual property is so important to GW. Only the ignorant look at something like the cost of plastic and declare the product to be of no value.
And some people ignore that this is the same for all miniature and scale model companies out there
Nothing unique to GW, although it is much cheaper for them than for some others as they do everything in house and don't need "external" companies for the job
So really I don't know why this should be an argument here as those costs are the same for all others too. So it is not forgotten but just ignored (same as we are not talking about packaging, storage cost, Christmas bonus for employees and all those things that everyone has to pay)
How is putting up front all the costs of owning and maintaining machinery cheaper than throwing some digital designs at china? also warehousing, maintenance, cost of employees, lease, etc. even removing the up front cost of the machine as by now its probably paid for. (i mean honestly its probably would be interesting to break down actual costs of goods. some times its surprising )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 15:58:38
How is putting up front all the costs of owning and maintaining machinery cheaper than throwing some digital designs at china?
Manufacturers don't go to China because it is cheaper but because it is the only option to get stuff done.
There are not many companies outside of China that are able to produce HIPS kits, and those are fully booked.
China is an option for those that need more capacity until they can build it "here" and it is not necessarily cheaper as place your order, get your pre-shipment sample, need to change/adjust it and they can still mess up your order which you only know after it arrives.
If it is something you cannot sell your investment is gone + another year waiting time for a replacement
Companies won't produce anything in Europe if it would be overall cheaper to do it in China, but it is not for several reasons (and not only for HIPS, this is for all kind of products, even clothing industry comes back to Europe/USA now as producing in China wasn't cheap in the long run)
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2019/05/09 18:20:46
Subject: Re:Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
Ishagu wrote: You guys are ignoring the costs of initially designing the model and getting it to production stage.
A kit like a Knight could cost 7 figures to design and get to mass production.
No, we're not. The DFG Crusader is larger and more complex than a Knight, and it was low 6 figures to get into production. There's no need to overstate things.
...just to make sure I'm clear...someone just stated that it could take $1,000,000 to design and produce an Imperial Knight kit. Okay, so that's the kind of thread this is now. Gotcha.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 19:54:11
2019/05/09 23:12:39
Subject: Re:Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
Elbows wrote: ...just to make sure I'm clear...someone just stated that it could take $1,000,000 to design and produce an Imperial Knight kit. Okay, so that's the kind of thread this is now. Gotcha.
Indeed, but he had his pinky in his mouth...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 23:12:53
Alphabet wrote:I use 3rd party sites within the UK and it honestly is not all that bad. I looked into games like Bolt action and infinity not so long ago and I noticed the prices are not too far apart.
I will say that some kits seem way overpriced. But all in all, they are just as expensive as everything else nowadays IMHO.
Edit: I am aware that for everywhere else in the world they bumped up there prices quite substantially!
Reemule wrote:I think it depends on what you want to play. A guy who wanders into a GW store and buys a brand new Primaris force, with Gman and Calgar, and all the options and then has them order him a Astreus...
Versus the guy who buys Dark Imperium stuff from Ebay, and amazon and a Astreus from a dubious seller on another site in a few away country..
That is like $1500 between them, and they have the same thing.
This should probably not need to be said, but... If you are looking at costs from a third party retailer or even second hand, you are not buying from GAMES WORKSHOP and thus are not answering the question. Obviously Warhammer has a very large market and if you want to be economic you can go bargain hunting for second hand models, but this thread is asking where GW is pricing their stuff relative to competitors.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2019/05/10 05:13:37
Subject: Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
To be honest I don't care, 20 years ago GW products were extremely expensive, people ignore that fact. Its always been extremely expensive. I started collecting in 2nd edition and even then I couldn't afford a full army even though I had a full army. Nothing has changed really, its always been extremely expensive, the only thing that's changed is my income in able to buy more models. I am poor as gak and I'm really fed up with people moaning about the price, DON'T fething BUY THEM. If they are so expensive then you wouldn't be asking the question 'are they too expensive' because you would have already stopped buying them before you asked that.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/10 05:17:03
2019/05/10 05:27:38
Subject: Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: To be honest I don't care, 20 years ago GW products were extremely expensive, people ignore that fact. Its always been extremely expensive. I started collecting in 2nd edition and even then I couldn't afford a full army even though I had a full army. Nothing has changed really, its always been extremely expensive, the only thing that's changed is my income in able to buy more models. I am poor as gak and I'm really fed up with people moaning about the price, DON'T fething BUY THEM. If they are so expensive then you wouldn't be asking the question 'are they too expensive' because you would have already stopped buying them before you asked that.
Your logic is blowing my mind. As long as you think this makes sense I guess.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2019/05/10 06:09:15
Subject: Would it be fair to say GW is the most expensive out of all the wargames?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: To be honest I don't care, 20 years ago GW products were extremely expensive, people ignore that fact. Its always been extremely expensive. I started collecting in 2nd edition and even then I couldn't afford a full army even though I had a full army. Nothing has changed really, its always been extremely expensive, the only thing that's changed is my income in able to buy more models. I am poor as gak and I'm really fed up with people moaning about the price, DON'T fething BUY THEM. If they are so expensive then you wouldn't be asking the question 'are they too expensive' because you would have already stopped buying them before you asked that.
Your logic is blowing my mind. As long as you think this makes sense I guess.
Not really. It was expensive, it is expensive. I really don't care, moaning about it does nothing because we are all still going to buy the plastic crack and GW aren't going to suddenly think 'we should give them a break, lets lower the price'. Its either buy it or don't and moaning about it isn't going to change anything other then getting other people to agree and say 'yeah its so expensive'. I don't have the energy to care about things that aren't going to change and we all know it isn't going to change; so what are we actually talking about, really? I mean I learnt years ago to only spend what I can model and paint, which takes a few weeks to a month if you paint them to a high standard, if you do that its really not that expensive. It gets expensive when you have to buy a unit every other day or week. Just takes discipline. I mean it is expensive as feth and you's have a right to say so but what good does it do, we are all still going to buy the gak.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/05/10 06:16:26
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