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 Formosa wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the mask of the phantasm the only DC movie to get an Oscar??

Mask of the Phantasm never won an Oscar. Mask of the Phantasm was only ever nominated for the Annie Award for best picture, which it lost to The Lion King.

Tim Burton's Batman, the original Superman Movie won Oscars before it though, and The Dark Knight got a few, and another from Suicide Squad.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you've been unaware of the fact that some of the damage Batman has done to henchmen and thugs is enough to be lethal over the years and years of "bUt bAtMaN dOeSn'T kiLL!!1!", that's on you.

It's just utterly ridiculous over the top violence portrayed by Snyder which takes it from a potential accident to deliberate murder.

But no actually because what separates him from everybody else is that he's not just some guy that kills people, like everybody else. If you struggle to bring that into a "gritty" and "realistic" setting that's the writers problem. If you can't write the character then don't use him.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you've been unaware of the fact that some of the damage Batman has done to henchmen and thugs is enough to be lethal over the years and years of "bUt bAtMaN dOeSn'T kiLL!!1!", that's on you.

This is missing the material point.

There is a difference between an unintended but unavoidable casualty, and just straight-up murdering people. Batman is often alluded to as a knight, with the intention of invoking his code of honour. If he has no hesitation about killing his enemies, why not just pack an M4 and be done with it? Proportionate force is something pretty important to almost all versions of the character, discard it and it doesn't just damage Batman, it means Red Hood etc no longer make any sense either.

I honestly think Snyder seems to want to make the Punisher, regardless of what movie he's making. He's a man who huffed the Frank Miller juice a few times too often.

Casualty wrote:
Proportionate force is something pretty important to almost all versions of the character

Man just wait until you've read more than two Batman stories; it'll blow your mind.

Voss wrote:How....? Batman is the story of a rich man with everything, plus a severe personality disorder and obsession. That's the story of essentially no one, let alone universal.

Technically, Batman is also the story of a furry… maybe some people can relate to that part?

 Kanluwen wrote:
We never really got to see too much of Snyder's Batman beyond BvS thanks to incessant whining from fans...

That's not why we didn't see much of Synder's stuff. The higher ups hated Synder, and were glad to be rid of him.

If you think the whining of a few people online dramatically shaped the outcome of the DCU, then I've got several bridges leading into Gotham that need a new owner.

And there's a massive difference between "Batman routinely cripples people that could cause an earlier death later in life" and "Strafes a line of henchmen with an automatic cannon on his personal aircraft".

Batman doesn't kill.

We jokingly decided last night at a gaming session that Batman is Lawful Evil. Half of the villains in Gotham could have been prevented/stopped with proper funding from Wayne Enterprises (and then they would be inventing things that make Wayne more money), and several more villains simply would not exist in many setting if Batman wasn't there, as he either directly or indirectly made them by his actions or a Wayne Ent. accident. God forbid true philanthropy work, as then you couldn't terrify and beat villains during your night shift, lol.

While in jest, Batman exists deliberately outside of law and government. He has no power structure (aside from wealth) and relies instead on his individualism and personal reputation to intimidate his opponents. He is consistently incapable of working as part of a team where all are equal. He can direct others, or he will break off on his own whims to pursue his individual interests. In my opinion, Batman is “Chaotic”.

And while his stock and trade is violence, that violence is used to punish the guilty, protect the innocent, and generally pursue noble ideals. He sacrifices his resources and personal well being for the betterment of others. In my opinion, Batman is “Good”.

Contrasted with Lex Luthor. Lex is often portrayed as pursuing Leadership roles in government and other “organizations”. He often relies on legal defences to keep him out of trouble. He organizes “armies” of underlings to achieve his goals. In my opinion, Lex is “Lawful”.

For simplicity’s sake, I’ll just say that Lex’s motivations are “Evil.” Though an argument for callously selfish (Neutral) could be made.

Yeah, as paradoxically as it is, the incredibly rigid, uncompromising Batman is very much 'Chaotic' Good. He holds himself to his standards, and his alone.

In saying that, it's often not touched on and is easily forgotten but, Wayne Enterprises typically does fund all sorts of schemes and treatments for Batman's villains.

Drawing across from various media, most typically Batman the Animated Series.

Bruce Wayne funds Victor Fries' lab in Arkham for his investigations into the treatments for his wifes condition.

Bruce Wayne funds therapy for Harvey Dent. And, eventually, medical fees.

Wayne Enterprises funded and supported Arnold Wesker (The Ventriloquists) journey back to society, even, eventually providing him a job in the Wayne Enterprises mail office.

He has long been funding work for a cure and treatment for Boris Karlo, aka Clayface. As well as Lady Clayface.

Sure, there are some people who cannot be helped, but, broadly speaking, Batman and Bruce Wayne try absolutely everything they can. It's people projecting their own cynicism onto the character, that they can't let themselves believe that even a fictional character can be genuinely good. And, to be honest, I kind of feel sorry for them.

A little.

Lawful doesn't have to be the law. It can be following a strict personal code. One that is defined enough that you could write it down on a piece of a paper.

Batmans code.

-No guns.
-Don't kill.
-No substance abuse (alcohol)
-Rehabilitation (I know, he breaks peoples limbs and gak. But he does fund arkham because he DOES want them to get help. hes just uses fear and terror to do his side of it.)


You can make the arguments you do for chaotic. But I would argue his strict personal codes makes him firmly lawful.

And lawful or not, he's probably lawful neutral at best if we are jesting. Especially in modern movie form.

This is the guy who has contingency plans against EVERY other member of the justice league, "just in case" (although how you prepare for the 345 different ways Barry Allen will inevitably screw up the timeline is beyond me)

Batwoman is really just a more guns-free version of Batman. It's not that she's crazy, just MORE crazy. But it's true that this series will definitely highlight a glaring lack of Batman. Even Smallville hinted at a soon to go Batman Bruce Wayne existing, even if it never played out in the show.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
And lawful or not, he's probably lawful neutral at best if we are jesting. Especially in modern movie form.

This is the guy who has contingency plans against EVERY other member of the justice league, "just in case" (although how you prepare for the 345 different ways Barry Allen will inevitably screw up the timeline is beyond me)

Batwoman is really just a more guns-free version of Batman. It's not that she's crazy, just MORE crazy. But it's true that this series will definitely highlight a glaring lack of Batman. Even Smallville hinted at a soon to go Batman Bruce Wayne existing, even if it never played out in the show.

Iirc the Batwoman revival in the comics happened at a time when he was "missing", so I think there's a good possibility they'll just wave it away like that.

I wouldn't call Batwoman crazy at all though. Indeed she's one of the few heroes with a roughly functional personal/sex life outside of her Bat-persona, and she's cognisant enough of the strain of what she does to have a therapist.

She is far less ironclad than he is on the no-killing/no-guns rule though, across mediums. Future Kate carries a rifle, the animated version has to be convinced to *stop* using them, she straight up shot Bruce by accident, and she shot Clayface.

Yeah, Kate Kane showed up as a result of the 'Infinite Crisis' - Bruce's paranoia created "Brother Eye" - which went more than a little bit Skynet, resulting in the deaths of thousands of people.

Blaming himself, Bruce decided that he could no longer trust his own judgement and essentially went Walkabout in an attempt to find himself again.

Wonder Woman was similarly going through a crisis of faith and joined him on the journey. Meanwhile, Superman had burned out his powers and was stuck, trapped on the sidelines as Clark Kent.

So "52" refers to the year the Big Three were missing.

The pilot has aired and it was better than I thought it was going to be. It was very, very Arrow pilot in the droning narration, but at the very least they had the sense to make the narration exist in universe as Kate writing to Bruce about what was going on (Arrow was just him narrating as he had no other characters to talk to).

Overall I think it sets things up pretty well, and we've got some interesting characters (the step-sister ending up as not a vapid socialite is a nice touch). Pacing issues are pretty standard - it's a pilot! - so it'll take some time for things to find the right rhythm. Not every pilot can hit the ground running (like Flash did - no pun intended). And as dull as live triangles tend to me, it's rare that you come across the gay woman hiding in a straight relationship plotline. It's almost always the gay guy pretending to be straight.

No overwhelming Berlanti-isms, yet, even if the Westpoint stuff does make me think of the Equal Rights song from Pop Star, especially the bit with Ringo Starr at the end.

@ greatbigtree: I can actually sympathize with Luthor's motivations ("a superhuman savior will not advance humanity"). It's his methods that make him evil, as well as a case study in "the end does not justify the means".

There's a certain amount of buy in for fantasy and superhero books.
If you cannot suspend disbelief enough to accept that light from our sun allows an alien (who looks just like us) to fly without any visible propulsion, you can't enjoy the story as written.

If you cannot suspend disbelief enough to accept that a man has trained in martial arts enough to just subdue his opponents, not kill them, you can't enjoy the story as written.

Imagining morgues filled with goons dressed in questionmarks and clownsuits is no way to proceed when reading about a guy whose central theme is he doesn't kill.

I took it more as a general commentary on the Batman movies in general.

"I have one rule, I don't kill."

*Kills someone in almost every movie.*

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The pilot has aired and it was better than I thought it was going to be. It was very, very Arrow pilot in the droning narration, but at the very least they had the sense to make the narration exist in universe as Kate writing to Bruce about what was going on (Arrow was just him narrating as he had no other characters to talk to).

Overall I think it sets things up pretty well, and we've got some interesting characters (the step-sister ending up as not a vapid socialite is a nice touch). Pacing issues are pretty standard - it's a pilot! - so it'll take some time for things to find the right rhythm. Not every pilot can hit the ground running (like Flash did - no pun intended). And as dull as live triangles tend to me, it's rare that you come across the gay woman hiding in a straight relationship plotline. It's almost always the gay guy pretending to be straight.

No overwhelming Berlanti-isms, yet, even if the Westpoint stuff does make me think of the Equal Rights song from Pop Star, especially the bit with Ringo Starr at the end.

For the record we don’t yet know if she’s gay pretending to be straight, she could simply be bi.

Random thing from the show that bothers me. Using switchblades as throwing knives. I don’t think that really works.

 AduroT wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The pilot has aired and it was better than I thought it was going to be. It was very, very Arrow pilot in the droning narration, but at the very least they had the sense to make the narration exist in universe as Kate writing to Bruce about what was going on (Arrow was just him narrating as he had no other characters to talk to).

Overall I think it sets things up pretty well, and we've got some interesting characters (the step-sister ending up as not a vapid socialite is a nice touch). Pacing issues are pretty standard - it's a pilot! - so it'll take some time for things to find the right rhythm. Not every pilot can hit the ground running (like Flash did - no pun intended). And as dull as live triangles tend to me, it's rare that you come across the gay woman hiding in a straight relationship plotline. It's almost always the gay guy pretending to be straight.

No overwhelming Berlanti-isms, yet, even if the Westpoint stuff does make me think of the Equal Rights song from Pop Star, especially the bit with Ringo Starr at the end.

For the record we don’t yet know if she’s gay pretending to be straight, she could simply be bi.

Random thing from the show that bothers me. Using switchblades as throwing knives. I don’t think that really works.

If you practice you can throw more or less any knife it's just harder/less effective.

And speaking of the Arrowverse:



Hope that worked.

Bran Dawri wrote:
@ greatbigtree: I can actually sympathize with Luthor's motivations ("a superhuman savior will not advance humanity"). It's his methods that make him evil, as well as a case study in "the end does not justify the means".

Well, its usually that he's off doing evil things for his own wealth and interests that harm or kill other people. Its not really end justifies the means- that would mean he's ruining hundreds of lives to save a million, not ruining hundreds of lives to make himself a million dollars.
That he happens on a philosophical point about the dangers of relying on a single super-powered individual is mostly just unrelated coincidence.

"if you wanted to save the world, Lex, you could have done it years ago."

"I... Know..."

I really liked the super hero Lex they did for awhile here recentish in the comics after Superman died.

I quite enjoyed it. I have certainly seen worse comic book show pilots.

I did think it was odd that she didn't get Fox is make her a new suit - women in both military and police forces have run into problem when forced to try using 'made for men but just smaller' body armour.

 Souleater wrote:
I quite enjoyed it. I have certainly seen worse comic book show pilots.

I did think it was odd that she didn't get Fox is make her a new suit - women in both military and police forces have run into problem when forced to try using 'made for men but just smaller' body armour.

Well, the quick mod-job he did on the old batsuit she found won't be sticking around given she still has to get the hair & other bits & bobs to have the "proper" Batwoman look, so either Fox will do even more work to make it fit her better or he'll do a new one from scratch in subsequent episodes.

 Compel wrote:
Yeah, as paradoxically as it is, the incredibly rigid, uncompromising Batman is very much 'Chaotic' Good. He holds himself to his standards, and his alone.

In saying that, it's often not touched on and is easily forgotten but, Wayne Enterprises typically does fund all sorts of schemes and treatments for Batman's villains.

This. The reason Batman can't make any sort of lasting change in the world is because he's a long-running comics character, and nothing else.

So, I just contacted Sky and they've confirmed to me that they, or indeed, no UK broadcaster, have been granted the rights to air Batwoman. Yet, at least.

WTF... I mean, really, WTF?!

 Compel wrote:
So, I just contacted Sky and they've confirmed to me that they, or indeed, no UK broadcaster, have been granted the rights to air Batwoman. Yet, at least.

WTF... I mean, really, WTF?!

"Hello, I am Mr Joe CEO."
"Why hello there Mr Joe CEO, would you like to buy our Unprofitator 3000? Just put $200,000,000 into the machine and you'll get $5 back."

Broadcast executives should (in theory) be good at business and be able to recognise an unprofitable stinker when they see it. Why would anyone waste money on the rights to a show that will never make them a profit for doing so?

It’s a popular character with a popular actress as part of a popular shared universe. I know of your political leanings and the kind of other places you post, BCB, but even you can see through your political filter to see this isn’t a born stinker, surely... inbuilt audience is inbuilt.