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What do people think of the new tank for admech? Is it worth it for it's points? Transport sucks it seems

ballzonya wrote:
What do people think of the new tank for admech? Is it worth it for it's points? Transport sucks it seems

Transport's fine. Not great, but not bad.

It's just fething EXPENSIVE in terms of real dough.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The main fear in the chaos knights is part of the same stratagem not a stock rule.
They suffer a mortal wound and roll a D3 to get +1T, +1S/D on a weapon, or +2move and +1 to advance/charge rolls. Or, suffer D3 mortals to choose one of them.

They will never be T9 AND have the bonus damage on the weapon and they risk suffering 3 mortal wounds to pick the one they want, which could easily offset the benefit from it in the first place.

Strong, but i wouldnt call it meta-defining.

I can't think of any big knight that wouldn't give it's left wing nut for T9, and at a paltry 3 wounds that's nothing. May as well just say they pay a CP and get to choose. Most of these knights have 20+ wounds. Yeah you're giving up a 1/7 to an 1/8 of your wounds, but you're preventing 16% of the wounds coming in from many of the most common AT weapons in the game. Lascannons now wound on 4's, plasma and melta on 5's. That's no joke.

And they don't have to take it either. If the opponent has no lascannons, then they can instead opt for movement or damage. So the opponent is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. It's not the end of the world, i agree, but it is very flexible and a handy ability to have. I know I'd take it every game with loyalist knights.

Good thing they don't have repairmen to heal 4 wounds a turn...

(I really hope that I didn't just jinx that.)

Both Grators and the Rider are good. Because they are cheap cheap cheap in points. The Ferrum gun doesn't really have a role though. Destroyers are plain better in the 36" S8 shooting role. Non-LOS is way more important, and S6 AP-1 D2 is great because it just deletes most enemy non-LOS. Transports have good dakka and are cheap. Can't say there's much more to write home about them. Finally, they have a decent sized body for physical screening. Tall enough to hide our infantry, but not the tanks and robots.

Agreed with MrMoustaffa. This isn’t very different to Riptides overcharging their Nova Reactors - I see knights doing it every turn happily.

Tried the 2x Belleros yesterday. Lost, as I lacked counter chargers to stop 4 Maulerfiends and Disco, plus deployed to far forward. However the mortars are decent - they have opened up a space for my DSers to jump in opponent deployment and to score d3 points on BHE. They whiffed against T7 vehs though, but Lascannons did as well (all my rolls were pretty abysmal this match) - I needed two rounds of focus firing to kill a Disco.

This makes me think - do I need Dragoons?

I would highly recommend Drill+Fulgurites, Dragoons, or a Knight for a counter-charger. You need to buy as many turns for your guns to do their work as possible.

Furiously painting for this:

I realized that I could do a mixed unit to gain access to Graia Vanguard. Abhor + Culexus? Yes, please!

dadamowsky wrote:
Tried the 2x Belleros yesterday. Lost, as I lacked counter chargers to stop 4 Maulerfiends and Disco, plus deployed to far forward. However the mortars are decent - they have opened up a space for my DSers to jump in opponent deployment and to score d3 points on BHE. They whiffed against T7 vehs though, but Lascannons did as well (all my rolls were pretty abysmal this match) - I needed two rounds of focus firing to kill a Disco.

This makes me think - do I need Dragoons?

I would say dont take dragoons against demon engines, they can run and charge or something with a combo and will almost always charge you, and dragoons are glasscannons in melee.
Only good positioning and screening will help.

2xDrills and 20 Fulgurites it is then. Or... Adamant Knight Gallant? Wounding on 4+ top should help him survive the majority of melee threats, with the 2+ armor on top of it.

 0XFallen wrote:

dadamowsky wrote:
Tried the 2x Belleros yesterday. Lost, as I lacked counter chargers to stop 4 Maulerfiends and Disco, plus deployed to far forward. However the mortars are decent - they have opened up a space for my DSers to jump in opponent deployment and to score d3 points on BHE. They whiffed against T7 vehs though, but Lascannons did as well (all my rolls were pretty abysmal this match) - I needed two rounds of focus firing to kill a Disco.

This makes me think - do I need Dragoons?

I would say dont take dragoons against demon engines, they can run and charge or something with a combo and will almost always charge you, and dragoons are glasscannons in melee.
Only good positioning and screening will help.

To play Devil's Advocate, that is precisely what they are for. It's tough to pin a Dragoon, so they can just fall back and the Dakkabots can open up on the Daemon Engines.

Also, appropriate quote:
“Oh, I am heartily tired of hearing about what Lee is going to do. Some of you always seem to think he is suddenly going to turn a double somersault, and land in our rear and on both of our flanks at the same time. Go back to your command, and try to think what we are going to do ourselves, instead of what Lee is going to do.” - Ulysses S. Grant

Except in 40k... some races can do a double somersault to land in our rear and both flanks at the same time. D:

Like Suzuteo said, they also lack the ability to repair 4 wounds a turn due to admech shenanigans.
They do have that melee stratagem (every slain model roll a die, on a 4+ get a wound back max of 6) but its melee only so you got SOME time to deal with that.
Its also only one knight. The 3++ was the reason the single knight soup was such a pain in the ass to deal with, thats gone and i'd be highly shocked if they gave it back to the chaos half without having some huge penalty in the process.
Im not saying it isnt strong im just doubting it being a meta-changer.

Do people think infiltrators be a suitable replacement for fulgurites using a drill? I'm not a huge fan of the electropriest models personally.

Dracarys wrote:
Do people think infiltrators be a suitable replacement for fulgurites using a drill? I'm not a huge fan of the electropriest models personally.

do you mean running infiltratos AS fulgurites? or infiltrators INSTEAD of fulgurites?

Personally, when i play "count-as" models, i make sure to use models that the army doesnt usually use. Using Infiltrators instead of fulgurites would be confusing since infiltrators are something admech can take. Also, they do not have the same base sizes.

If you want to run infiltrators instead of fulgurites, then the transport isnt really useful since they get native deepstrike already

I meant instead of fulgurites not as a stand in, and fair enough on that. Maybe secutarii instead then, hoplites might be nice coming out of the drill.

Dracarys wrote:
I meant instead of fulgurites not as a stand in, and fair enough on that. Maybe secutarii instead then, hoplites might be nice coming out of the drill.

if youre putting non-electro priest then i feel like hoplites could do a similar job. you would use them to lock down vehicles more than kill stuff however.
Personally, since ive already seen how brutal 2x 10 fulgurites can be coming at a charge on turn 1 (i used to run it with drills), i'll be trying out 4 MSU of plasma vanguards in 2 transports. Thats 3 radium shots and 8 plasma shot.

 Suzuteo wrote:

 0XFallen wrote:

dadamowsky wrote:
Tried the 2x Belleros yesterday. Lost, as I lacked counter chargers to stop 4 Maulerfiends and Disco, plus deployed to far forward. However the mortars are decent - they have opened up a space for my DSers to jump in opponent deployment and to score d3 points on BHE. They whiffed against T7 vehs though, but Lascannons did as well (all my rolls were pretty abysmal this match) - I needed two rounds of focus firing to kill a Disco.

This makes me think - do I need Dragoons?

I would say dont take dragoons against demon engines, they can run and charge or something with a combo and will almost always charge you, and dragoons are glasscannons in melee.
Only good positioning and screening will help.

To play Devil's Advocate, that is precisely what they are for. It's tough to pin a Dragoon, so they can just fall back and the Dakkabots can open up on the Daemon Engines.

Also, appropriate quote:
“Oh, I am heartily tired of hearing about what Lee is going to do. Some of you always seem to think he is suddenly going to turn a double somersault, and land in our rear and on both of our flanks at the same time. Go back to your command, and try to think what we are going to do ourselves, instead of what Lee is going to do.” - Ulysses S. Grant

Except in 40k... some races can do a double somersault to land in our rear and both flanks at the same time. D:

Damn i like this quote. It reminds me about Leter form Philip II Macedonian to Spartans.
"You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."
and Spartan anwser: "If"

People are fixated on lists and how good units are, acting as if you were playing 1500 ps vs 2000 if you took 500 of suboptimal units in 2kmatch. Skills, tactic and adaptability. There are so many factors to accommodate on actual table that best laid tactics go out of the window. Thats why id rather test even suboptimal tactic, because on table they may actually turn viable because terrain setup. I can't count how many games i won against flyers because terrain was filled with ruins and i could put fulgurites in them instead putting them in drills, giving middle finger to flyers that could not do gak. Or how many times i actually put my onagers on front because sending them midfield to charge in, tarpit and bodyblock, and eventually detonate them one by one was best use i could get for them.
Stop acting as if the game was perfect simulation where no mistakes are made. Mistakes are made, on both sides, suboptimal or even wrong plays are made constantly even by Pros. Difference is that they realize mistakes they made after few minutes instead of days or never. Number crunching on units in lists is only half of tactic, the other one is piloting it, recognizing opportunities and patterns. I know it is harder to convey it via forum, but i think we should put bigger emphasis on that part.

Well... your points might be valid if I were an above average player. I'm not, at least not yet - I need to bring lists that give me an edge where I lack proper skill

I haven't used the fulgerites yet. I plan on giving them a go when I get a set converted up. Right now I'm kinda off either of them. Hopilites is where my brain has recently gone.

Imperial robots spotted, may make nice fistybots

Oh yeah and Conquerer class to, May make good Warglaives, Contemptors or even Ballistarii with a little imagination

Eww...

those look like oversized battletech minis. Yuck.

I’ll reserve judgment till I see some painted examples, they may be terrible or with some tlc and an added cog and hose here and there they may shine, jury’s out for now

These robots are "what if Admech was released in 1st ed"

Dracarys wrote:
Do people think infiltrators be a suitable replacement for fulgurites using a drill? I'm not a huge fan of the electropriest models personally.

Hoplites and Infiltrators have different base sizes. People get very touchy about melee units with different base sizes.

 Spera wrote:
Damn i like this quote. It reminds me about Leter form Philip II Macedonian to Spartans.
"You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."
and Spartan anwser: "If"

People are fixated on lists and how good units are, acting as if you were playing 1500 ps vs 2000 if you took 500 of suboptimal units in 2kmatch. Skills, tactic and adaptability. There are so many factors to accommodate on actual table that best laid tactics go out of the window. Thats why id rather test even suboptimal tactic, because on table they may actually turn viable because terrain setup. I can't count how many games i won against flyers because terrain was filled with ruins and i could put fulgurites in them instead putting them in drills, giving middle finger to flyers that could not do gak. Or how many times i actually put my onagers on front because sending them midfield to charge in, tarpit and bodyblock, and eventually detonate them one by one was best use i could get for them.
Stop acting as if the game was perfect simulation where no mistakes are made. Mistakes are made, on both sides, suboptimal or even wrong plays are made constantly even by Pros. Difference is that they realize mistakes they made after few minutes instead of days or never. Number crunching on units in lists is only half of tactic, the other one is piloting it, recognizing opportunities and patterns. I know it is harder to convey it via forum, but i think we should put bigger emphasis on that part.

Macedon did defeat Sparta. Lol.

Anyhow, my point is that there's no such thing as a perfect TAC. In every game, more or less of your units are going to be strong or weak to elements of your opponent's lists. Gatekeepers present extreme cases. Instead of worrying about what is optimal, focus on your dominant strategy. In the case of gunline, you need to keep shooting. Doesn't matter if Dragoons get pasted by Daemon Engines. You charge those chickens into the fox.

 Suzuteo wrote:

Macedon did defeat Sparta. Lol.

Anyhow, my point is that there's no such thing as a perfect TAC. In every game, more or less of your units are going to be strong or weak to elements of your opponent's lists. Gatekeepers present extreme cases. Instead of worrying about what is optimal, focus on your dominant strategy. In the case of gunline, you need to keep shooting. Doesn't matter if Dragoons get pasted by Daemon Engines. You charge those chickens into the fox.

But not by Philip himself. Nor he nor his son actually conquered Sparta. Alexander later forced them into political alliance, that they previously declined, after Sparta offense on Crete was broken. Which i itself can be lesson:There are more ways to achieve objective than one.

 Suzuteo wrote:

Dracarys wrote:
Do people think infiltrators be a suitable replacement for fulgurites using a drill? I'm not a huge fan of the electropriest models personally.

Hoplites and Infiltrators have different base sizes. People get very touchy about melee units with different base sizes.

 Spera wrote:
Damn i like this quote. It reminds me about Leter form Philip II Macedonian to Spartans.
"You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."
and Spartan anwser: "If"

People are fixated on lists and how good units are, acting as if you were playing 1500 ps vs 2000 if you took 500 of suboptimal units in 2kmatch. Skills, tactic and adaptability. There are so many factors to accommodate on actual table that best laid tactics go out of the window. Thats why id rather test even suboptimal tactic, because on table they may actually turn viable because terrain setup. I can't count how many games i won against flyers because terrain was filled with ruins and i could put fulgurites in them instead putting them in drills, giving middle finger to flyers that could not do gak. Or how many times i actually put my onagers on front because sending them midfield to charge in, tarpit and bodyblock, and eventually detonate them one by one was best use i could get for them.
Stop acting as if the game was perfect simulation where no mistakes are made. Mistakes are made, on both sides, suboptimal or even wrong plays are made constantly even by Pros. Difference is that they realize mistakes they made after few minutes instead of days or never. Number crunching on units in lists is only half of tactic, the other one is piloting it, recognizing opportunities and patterns. I know it is harder to convey it via forum, but i think we should put bigger emphasis on that part.

Macedon did defeat Sparta. Lol.

Anyhow, my point is that there's no such thing as a perfect TAC. In every game, more or less of your units are going to be strong or weak to elements of your opponent's lists. Gatekeepers present extreme cases. Instead of worrying about what is optimal, focus on your dominant strategy. In the case of gunline, you need to keep shooting. Doesn't matter if Dragoons get pasted by Daemon Engines. You charge those chickens into the fox.

Tried to explain this numerous times . Make a plan then play it. Simple as that . Does not matter if you saw it somewhere eslee or field test it play it 20 times see how it feels vs all vs your playstyle add your experience . Train will win you more !!!

For you guys that have run Ballistaari, how do you feel about them? Heavily considering trying out 4 Las ballistaari on protector mode. I'm seeing lots of knights and twin lascannons hitting on 2's rerolling 1's seems really good for a single CP and 80pts.

I want to like Dragoons but with a lack of other substantial melee threats I feel like they just get singled out.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
For you guys that have run Ballistaari, how do you feel about them? Heavily considering trying out 4 Las ballistaari on protector mode. I'm seeing lots of knights and twin lascannons hitting on 2's rerolling 1's seems really good for a single CP and 80pts.

I want to like Dragoons but with a lack of other substantial melee threats I feel like they just get singled out.

I have come to rely on Striders. They are slightly less durable than Crawlers, but they counter aircraft, do incredible damage to T7-8 vehicles as well as T4 elites, can make solid walls with dangerous Overwatch, and are extremely mobile for getting that LOS or scoring Hold points. I run them Mars (rerolls against -2 to hit aircraft and two chances for Shroudpsalm), but they will do well as Stygies too, given their BS1 after +2 to hit.

I really have to emphasize that getting singled out is the entire point of Dragoons. They are basically a hard-to-hit magnet for S7 shots. Unless the opponent is playing some insane all-in assault list, your Dragoons should be used aggressively, so that they can't be ignored on round one.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
For you guys that have run Ballistaari, how do you feel about them? Heavily considering trying out 4 Las ballistaari on protector mode. I'm seeing lots of knights and twin lascannons hitting on 2's rerolling 1's seems really good for a single CP and 80pts.

I want to like Dragoons but with a lack of other substantial melee threats I feel like they just get singled out.

Ok so why you actually don't like them yet? Except price of course. They are our best antitank/aircraft gun platform, and it is not gonne change once Chaos knights will drop. Im already switching magnetized neutrons for icarus option. 4 las balistari is ok. If you have properly setted up terrain you should have some space to hide them, with 5-6 it can be tricky, and if you don't know that you will have sufficient LoS blocking don't go for it, just stay with 4.

About dragons, I didn't use them for a while. Their biggest problem is having 6 wounds, and that is bad number when everybody and their mother used flat flat 3dmg weapons to deal with knights. But they body block like a champions, hit like a truck and thus attract fire like a magnet. They are distraction carnifex, well, functional one. They are there to be killed(all units are), or make your opponent pay if he ignores them. Even if you have one model left form the squad, it can still be dangerous, as it basically mulch most of the characters. They halt your opponent advance giving you time to move up the board and buy time to finish him with the fire support. Its better to have your opponent think how he will peel them of their army, than having to peel his units of yours(because we lack in that department). Point is, don't try to make big plays with dragons, we don't have enough support for melee to do that. Just pick place where they would do most damage to your opponent, and shove them into his face.