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 Vineheart01 wrote:

Octovol wrote:

Pomguo wrote:
But if you get hit with two 4dmg Lascannon shots then you’ll need to roll two 6s to survive that. So graia isn’t fully useless for electropriests even after they FAQ’d it to not stack with their FNP - it still helps them against multi-damage hits (easier to roll one 6 than four 5+s) and of course it still helps them against morale losses and dying when their transport gets destroyed.

I've always played it slightly different to that. For example if I have an Onager with 4 wounds left and it gets hit, wounded and saves failed against two 4 damage lascannon shots, the first 4 damage kills it, there's no more models to assign the other 4 dmg to so it's wasted. Then roll for refusal to yield. That's it's main benefit (apart from saving from morale) imo that if you overkill something RtY is still just a single roll per model to survive.

except that you assign and resolve each successful wound one at a time.
The first lascannon kills it, it is now slain and Graia ability goes off (since theres no permission to wait until all shots have been resolved). If its still around, the other shot is now allocated to it and you gotta roll again.
If it worked the way you described it would be a bit too good. That 1 hp crawler could survive a combined total of 14 wounds from an avenger gatling cannon because you rolled a singular 6. A bit too strong lol

Too strong? Like a Quantum Shielded necron you mean? >.>

Octovol wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Octovol wrote:

Pomguo wrote:
But if you get hit with two 4dmg Lascannon shots then you’ll need to roll two 6s to survive that. So graia isn’t fully useless for electropriests even after they FAQ’d it to not stack with their FNP - it still helps them against multi-damage hits (easier to roll one 6 than four 5+s) and of course it still helps them against morale losses and dying when their transport gets destroyed.

I've always played it slightly different to that. For example if I have an Onager with 4 wounds left and it gets hit, wounded and saves failed against two 4 damage lascannon shots, the first 4 damage kills it, there's no more models to assign the other 4 dmg to so it's wasted. Then roll for refusal to yield. That's it's main benefit (apart from saving from morale) imo that if you overkill something RtY is still just a single roll per model to survive.

except that you assign and resolve each successful wound one at a time.
The first lascannon kills it, it is now slain and Graia ability goes off (since theres no permission to wait until all shots have been resolved). If its still around, the other shot is now allocated to it and you gotta roll again.
If it worked the way you described it would be a bit too good. That 1 hp crawler could survive a combined total of 14 wounds from an avenger gatling cannon because you rolled a singular 6. A bit too strong lol

Too strong? Like a Quantum Shielded necron you mean? >.>

Sure Quantum Shields are really strong ( and cool!) but the vehicles also only have a 4+ and T6 mostly and is still unreliable against a lot of weapons. Just shoot them down with an Icarus array.

Edit: On a side note I tested out my new kataphrons (6 destroyers for now with plasma and phosphor) and the new transport with 10 ruststalkers in it ( not really competetiv, I know) with Cawl and 4 Robots and 3 battalions.
2nd Turn I tabled my opponent ( spammed mostly Primaris marines and had even 20 hellblasters) and used ~13 CP turn 1.

The shooting was more on the boring side, but on one flank I had the transport with 9 Ruststalkers and a manipulus with the omniscient mask.
Transport got shot down quiet easily though which is fine as the rest didnt get shot at and the ruststalkers got charged, most of them died with addition to shooting.
I also had 3 vanguard units with melee weapons and pistols on this flank which destroyed a lot of primaris thanks to the relic. Was really cool, but still too expensive for a single Alpha.

So I was thinking, if I go with 6-9+ Breachers and a ( Dominus or manipulus?) With Prime hermeticon Ill let ~2 units of Vanguards with melee weapons but no pistols accompany them

Manipulus is a better escort for melee imo, with his flamer and then built-in D6 attack relic. You can be really silly with him in melee if you want to run that gimmick, too - Prime Hermeticon warlord instead of Mask (so he also buffs Electropriests) and then the D6 tentacles relic so he has 2D6 extra attacks.

the extra attacks arent that strong but thats still a comically large number of attacks that can at least reliably hurt troops coming from a 90pt model.

Could someone remind me why we think Peltas are bad?
Im tryying to reevaluate them now that we have transport, and the don't seem that bad. Not supper good(jeez gw, they don't have to have dogma but let secutari have keyword at least so starts and auras work), but aren't bad. Mediocre and okish. And Mediocrity can have big value. Opinions?

They aren't Troops and don't have a Forgeworld.

Also, the weapon profiles are bad. Back when we played Soup, there was nothing this unit did that Guard could do better.

Flechette Burster is twin lasguns. You can have two Guardsmen with rerolls, super move, etc. for cheaper than a Peltast.

Ignis Blaze is strictly worse than a Mortar. Ridiculously short-ranged and only S3.

Kinetic Hammershot is a joke in general. It's a single bolter round with AP-2. At least make it S5!

 Suzuteo wrote:
They aren't Troops and don't have a Forgeworld.

exactly this, if they had a forgeworlds at the very least it would help them a lot, putting wrath of mars on a full-size squad of them would be amazing IMO, they could play a similar role to infiltrators but at a longer range.

Theyre also rather expensive $$$ wise and are not really doing anything we cant already do with normal units.

So has anyone figured out a magnetization solution for the Skorpiuses? The joint at the front-bottom is totally different for the Grator and the Rider, so I am not so sure how they can share a magnet.

 Suzuteo wrote:
So has anyone figured out a magnetization solution for the Skorpiuses? The joint at the front-bottom is totally different for the Grator and the Rider, so I am not so sure how they can share a magnet.

i put magnets on the sides of the hinge in the first one that i assembled but i think it might be possible to swap the two versions with no magnets at all for the main hull.

I glued the ramp to the corresponding sides and i just slide it in to make the transport.

for the disintegrator, i glued the front to the top and i just pop the whole thing in and it holds with no magnets (its actually quite difficult to make it fit)

 Suzuteo wrote:
They aren't Troops and don't have a Forgeworld.

Also, the weapon profiles are bad. Back when we played Soup, there was nothing this unit did that Guard could do better.

Flechette Burster is twin lasguns. You can have two Guardsmen with rerolls, super move, etc. for cheaper than a Peltast.

Ignis Blaze is strictly worse than a Mortar. Ridiculously short-ranged and only S3.

Kinetic Hammershot is a joke in general. It's a single bolter round with AP-2. At least make it S5!

Yeah, i get it. But my point is, would they have those, they wouldn't be good. They would be bonkers and everyone and their mother would be spamming them. Im just looking at them and refuse myself to value them in binary good/bad scale. I want to now how good they are in 1-10 scale. Id say 5,5-6. Maybe even 6,5.

Even with Forgeworld traits and troops role I'm not so certain you'd see them spammed. They cost more than our regular infantry and odds are you're building your infantry for a specific job to do well, not do a bunch of random ones badly. You want indirect, Skorpius. You want weight of fire, vanguard/bots/the shooty priests. You want high AP, you take plasma armed vanguard/rangers.

Don't get me wrong they're not useless, you could make them work in a fun list, but I don't see any ability they have as game hanging or particularly inspiring. Our infantry cost enough as is, the last thing I want is even more elite infantry.

You want to make me excited about a new troop unit, let us take servitors in blocks of 5-20 with some sort of morale ability at their current cost. I'd run swarms of servo armed servitors in a heartbeat and if the loadouts stay the same you could even hide heavy weapons in them and hold objectives in buildings with stupid efficient t3 3+ save models in guardsmen point range. And on top of that they each get a powerfist. Yeah it's not super accurate or strong but that many swings will chip some wounds, especially on stuff like wolf guard or ogryn. Would make an excellent anti melee screen. You think that'd be an obvious plastic box to make but oh well.

Honestly, if you really wanted to run generalized troops, just run 9 Breachers or something.

So the new transport adds nothing of value. How is the tank though? It looks slightly silly but there's a charm to that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So the new transport adds nothing of value. How is the tank though? It looks slightly silly but there's a charm to that.

the transport adds a lot to the army, it gives cheap mobility to our less mobile units, is a brick so it blocks line of sight and has decent weapons for its cost. Its job isnt to kill stuff.


So with the latest errata/faq, electropriests cannot use their feel no pain at all it seems? i think many people mightve played it wrong since ive seen it defended that you could choose which one to apply.

Q: Can a Graia model that has the Refusal to Yield ability
also make use of rules that allow them to ignore lost wounds,
such as Fanatical Devotion?
A: No.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

You want to make me excited about a new troop unit, let us take servitors in blocks of 5-20 with some sort of morale ability at their current cost. I'd run swarms of servo armed servitors in a heartbeat and if the loadouts stay the same you could even hide heavy weapons in them and hold objectives in buildings with stupid efficient t3 3+ save models in guardsmen point range. And on top of that they each get a powerfist. Yeah it's not super accurate or strong but that many swings will chip some wounds, especially on stuff like wolf guard or ogryn. Would make an excellent anti melee screen. You think that'd be an obvious plastic box to make but oh well.

Absolutely this. if this was an option I would be buying so many servitors, we are supposed to be producing them by the millions anyway...

I'm building one hover tank kit. I think I want a transport because I enjoy playing mechanized. Someone tell me if this is a mistake.

@Slayer-Fan123
A bit harsh to say that it adds nothing. I am not a huge fan of the T6, but it has decent dakka, movement, and a good LOS-blocking body.

@MrMoustaffa
If we had our own version of Plaguebearers, I would be very happy.

@axisofentropy
It's easy to hotswap tank/transport variants. Thus far, the tank has been more impressive to me than the transport.

 axisofentropy wrote:
I'm building one hover tank kit. I think I want a transport because I enjoy playing mechanized. Someone tell me if this is a mistake.

It's certainly not a mistake, provided that it synergises with the list you have in mind. The tank generally fits in well with a Cawl-style gun line list because it provides something that we don't already have in-house - non LoS shooting. The transport (if spammed) lends itself to a different style - highly mobile infantry embarked on cheap vehicles, great for objective grabbing and early game harassment and area denial. If you're getting a single box, the transport is probably best used as a screen with a melee unit embarked primarily in order to protect your gun line, and secondarily to threaten the middle of the table. These are just my opinions, I've limited experience with the Dunerider.

 axisofentropy wrote:
I'm building one hover tank kit. I think I want a transport because I enjoy playing mechanized. Someone tell me if this is a mistake.

Noone has the experience to really say. As an option it doesn't blow me away instantly but 3 with 3 units of hoplites could be interesting however its value is not in pure numbers and shooting - therefore assessing takes practice and repetition vs a variety of lists and noone had that yet.

So has anyone been able to test both Tank variants (mortar and Ferrum)?
How do they fit in with the rest of our units?

With the release I have a really hard time figuring out which combinations of ForgeWorlds to play. Cawl provides full rerolls to them and gives Shroudpsalm often, while stygies -1 is superb and they aren´t hit that hard by a loss of Cawl since BS3.

the usefulness of both versions is kinda up to personal pref imo.

One is a tank that has a rather powerful unique gun.
The other is...a slightly better rhino. (keyword: slightly. T6, but more guns)

The two simply dont compare in a void that way. The transport will never make its points back in a clear-cut way because its JUST a transport with a handful of S4 shots. Its strength will shine in getting troopers downfield safely relatively quick and being a massive blocker that your opponent doesnt WANT to deal with but has to.

I run trukks in my ork lists similarly. Once i dump the occupants it drives down into chokepoints and/or eats overwatch for me. Nobody wants to deal with it once theres nothing inside because its so worthless, but they kinda have to with the way im shoving it down their throat. And that wastes their time, which is a good thing. And its durable enough to be a pain in the butt to remove w/o dedicating anti-tank weapons to it and who the crap wants to do that when i still got T7-T8 stuff floating around?

 lash92 wrote:
So has anyone been able to test both Tank variants (mortar and Ferrum)?
How do they fit in with the rest of our units?

With the release I have a really hard time figuring out which combinations of ForgeWorlds to play. Cawl provides full rerolls to them and gives Shroudpsalm often, while stygies -1 is superb and they aren´t hit that hard by a loss of Cawl since BS3.

Not tried the ferrum but I love the mortar. Good jack of all trades tank, although it can be frustrating trying to find a good target for all it's weapons every turn.

Maybe it's the guard player in me but I just love indirect weapons. Having a mobile and fairly survivable platform that is very consistent on shots makes that even better. Reminds me of what a griffon used to feel like, if anyone remembers those.

I've not tried the ferrum yet, and I'm sure it's good, but since we have other stuff to do AT, I just don't feel like running it. The mortar fills a gap nothing else does, while the ferrumite is competing with neutron lasers, kataphrons, plasma vanguard, Armigers, etc. Etc.

Maybe in a 1000pt game, where I don't need to max mortar tanks I'll give it a try, but even there the first tank will always be a mortar I think.

Good points, the mortar is a unique thing which we can't get anywhere else whilst there are AT options.
I'm actually gravitating towards a brigade atm.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Even with Forgeworld traits and troops role I'm not so certain you'd see them spammed. They cost more than our regular infantry and odds are you're building your infantry for a specific job to do well, not do a bunch of random ones badly. You want indirect, Skorpius. You want weight of fire, vanguard/bots/the shooty priests. You want high AP, you take plasma armed vanguard/rangers.

Don't get me wrong they're not useless, you could make them work in a fun list, but I don't see any ability they have as game hanging or particularly inspiring. Our infantry cost enough as is, the last thing I want is even more elite infantry.

You want to make me excited about a new troop unit, let us take servitors in blocks of 5-20 with some sort of morale ability at their current cost. I'd run swarms of servo armed servitors in a heartbeat and if the loadouts stay the same you could even hide heavy weapons in them and hold objectives in buildings with stupid efficient t3 3+ save models in guardsmen point range. And on top of that they each get a powerfist. Yeah it's not super accurate or strong but that many swings will chip some wounds, especially on stuff like wolf guard or ogryn. Would make an excellent anti melee screen. You think that'd be an obvious plastic box to make but oh well.

Make it happen and I will marry you. Or anyone who will xD

Ferrum Grators are outshined by Plasma Destroyers, both Ryza and Mars. But they are very competitive in terms of their point cost.

Mortar Grators essentially replace Breachers in Mars Gunlines.

Here's the pro-cons for replacing a 4x Breacher unit:
+Non-LOS
+Cannot be tri-pointed
+Blocks LOS for Skitarii
+More dakka against all targets
+BS3+
+12" Move
+More durable (T7; same Sv and W)
=Similar primary weapon profile
-Less total coverage
-Not infantry
-No ObSec
-Lose specialist detachment bonuses
-Less melee attacks

I am actually beginning to think that 6x Robots and 3x Grators might be competitive in this ridiculous Tau, Ork, and Chaos meta that we're in. There's a huge variety of threats, and running-and-gunning Robots may be the best answer for them.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Ferrum Grators are outshined by Plasma Destroyers, both Ryza and Mars. But they are very competitive in terms of their point cost.

I am actually beginning to think that 6x Robots and 3x Grators might be competitive in this ridiculous Tau, Ork, and Chaos meta that we're in. There's a huge variety of threats, and running-and-gunning Robots may be the best answer for them.

That idea is pretty hilarious. So I guess you fit them in a Mars Spearhead as the Cybernetica Cohort? And whats for the rest of the list? I would be pretty afraid of things like GSC or Nids which can tag you.

Ive been running sprint bots a lot lately and they're an odd duck. I assume you're planning on triple phosphor? Double phosphor with flamer has been my main loadout and I really like it. Makes you less likely to get tied up by the odd infantry squad and let's them ignore negative hit mods. I've only been running 3 and definitely feel like at least 4 would be the sweet spot. Obligatory Metallica caveat of course, I bet Mars ones could do some serious damage even at only 3 bots.

I'm still not entirely sure if damage wise they're worth their points, but they're one hell of a distraction. People aren't used to seeing them moved up and when you start advancing and firing as you go they tend to just absolutely dump fire into them. I've been advancing to the center and going protector but I almost wonder if it'd work better just staying aegis to tank more punisment, keeping the override on standby just in case.

Essentially I'm using them like Hellhounds from IG. We don't really have an equivalent in admech and they seem to do the niche decently well.

It should have had the fly keyword to begin with but GW had decided our codex should not have the fly keyword anywhere within it.

 lash92 wrote:
That idea is pretty hilarious. So I guess you fit them in a Mars Spearhead as the Cybernetica Cohort? And whats for the rest of the list? I would be pretty afraid of things like GSC or Nids which can tag you.

If they get close enough.

I say this without irony, given I lost to Nids because 4 GS slipped past my screen and tied up my Robots.

Anyhow, some list ideas:

This was sort of the start of my premise. I could fit a third Grator in, but I like the flexibility of my Assassin and Dragoons. Basically, run and gun the Robots until you have the opportunity to pump 4 CP into them, then instantly melt a third of your opponent's army.

Or perhaps, a bit more balanced a list:

Cut a Robot for Dunerider and an extra 5 Rangers. Useful for grabbing objectives with the infiltration stratagem and/or expanding your screen.

EDIT: Actually, after crunching the numbers, maybe 5x Robots and 3x Grators is the best compromise. Thoughts?