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Right. We already guaranteedly give up Gangbusters (Kataphrons, Dragoons, Striders, Robots). Don't want to throw Kingslayer on top of that. But it is exactly as you said. He's a diverse shooting and fighting threat that is also very clock friendly. Every T1 shooting army can kill a Knight. They struggle a lot more against 5x Dragoons or 2x Drill+Fulgurites.

Yeah, 4x Dakkabots and 3x Grators is the strongest combo in my opinion, though I am wary of Eldar. They can be really tough if you get a bad turn 1. Thankfully, the flyer spam has gotten a bit more tame. Guess I will just have to bait out LFR and Doctrina my Grators. My last tourney, his Hemlocks got too close, and my gunline just wrecked them.

A mixed Battalion is great. I regret taking an extra Graia Enginseer instead of a Lucius Enginseer for easy Behind Enemy Lines or Old School's Linebreaker though.

What do you guys think about a double Mars Battalion idea I’m formulating

Cawl
Seer
15x rangers
4x dakkabots
4x las strider

Mani
Seer
15x Rangers
3x grators

Knight Gallant to cover melee or maybe priests in a drill?

I would definitely take priests in a drill over a lone Gallant.

Stygies dragoons would make your opponent spend 2 turns shooting them Instead of your gunline, but 10 ironstrider models seems like a pain to make/transport.

@Ideasweasel
I would do a Krast Crusader if you have to choose a Knight.

Just a single Drill and Priests is not that great. It's pretty easy to shoot them off the board. You need to bring 4-6 Dragoons or a second Drill and Priests.

Personally though, I think the Summer Slaughter guy had the right idea. Two Ryza Drills with 10x Vanguard with Calivers (and an Enginseer for repairs and deployment reduction) actually pack a huge punch when backed by Mortars, Crawlers, or Dakkabots. Drop one on turn two, Doctrina + Plasma Specialists, delete an Eldar flyer. Drop another on turn three, delete a Tank Commander or Discordant or Deredeo. Ryza Drills can totally demolish vehicles and the Vanguard can just camp objectives or advance and shoot at BS2. It's bonkers.

Here's the list:

Dakkabots and Grators for the firebase, screened by 3x5 Graia Rangers and 2x5 Ryza Vanguard. Two Drills with Ryza Vanguard for deep strike fun. Lucius Corpuscarii for more deep striking options; also can be held back to shoot and counter-charge. I prefer them over Infiltrators at the moment because I think S5 shooting and fighting makes for a better profile, and because I don't need them competing with the Robots for Wrath. Lucius Enginseer for more Recon, Linebreaker, and Behind Enemy Lines VP.

I’m not so sold on including a knight to be honest.

I’m glad people are all aboard the solar flare. It’s such a fun relic!

The Knight adds consistency to a list because it's fast, fights well, and shoots well, especially against high wound targets. So it pretty much is the most flexible 400-500 points you can spend in your army. But against our toughest matchups, it gives up 4 VP.

I actually used to run it, but forgot about it for some reason. It's a useful use of a tax HQ.

 Ideasweasel wrote:


I’m glad people are all aboard the solar flare. It’s such a fun relic!

yeah, its really only because our other relics suck and that most list include a mixed detachment anyway that its useable. I'm hoping we get a code 2.0 and that they change our relics (stop with the relic axes!!)

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:


I’m glad people are all aboard the solar flare. It’s such a fun relic!

yeah, its really only because our other relics suck and that most list include a mixed detachment anyway that its useable. I'm hoping we get a code 2.0 and that they change our relics (stop with the relic axes!!)

I disagree. Most books only have 1-3 good relics (GSC being the exception). We have the solar flare, cc mask, phosphor serpentia relic has won me games, the ryza gun, and I'm sure I'm missing one more. Overall we've done decently on relics. Especially for an early book.

 Hulksmash wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:


I’m glad people are all aboard the solar flare. It’s such a fun relic!

yeah, its really only because our other relics suck and that most list include a mixed detachment anyway that its useable. I'm hoping we get a code 2.0 and that they change our relics (stop with the relic axes!!)

I disagree. Most books only have 1-3 good relics (GSC being the exception). We have the solar flare, cc mask, phosphor serpentia relic has won me games, the ryza gun, and I'm sure I'm missing one more. Overall we've done decently on relics. Especially for an early book.

The problem with our relics is that they want to be in a role that the rest of our army isnt designed for. Our Dominus have a reroll aura in the shooting phase, our enginseers are too frail to get into combat, only the manipulus wants to go into melee range yet we get :

Anzion's Pseudogenetor (nice with the manipulus)
Pater Cog-Tooth (only domini + enginseer can take it)
Uncreator gauntlet (only datasmith)
The red axe (only domini + enginseer can take it)
Adamantine arm
the omnissiah's hand

While the stats of these weapons aren't bad, they want to put our valuable reroll bubbles in situations where they are weak.

For the ranged weapons we have :

phosphoenix (only useable on the dominus and while its a decent weapon, its short range once again goes against what the army wants to do)
skull of elder nikola (yeah ok, this one is clearly OVERPOWERED)
weapon XCIX (a 3 shot autocannon on a dominus only isnt the worst)

I dont have much against these, they can do work. I just find that relics that "upgrade weapons" are uninteresting, i like relics that add mechanics/affect the rules directly.

The non-weapon :

Autocaduceus (this is probably the best relic in the codex in a vacuum)
eye of xi-lexum (again, its short range goes against what the army is designed to do)
Raiment of the tecnomartys (the fact that these generate additionnal attacks instead of hits is laughable, even with kastellan, you'd get only a few more hits in overwatch, the FNP is nice)
Omniscient Mask (situational as hell, it helps dragoons, which characters cant keep up with, hoplites and basic skitariis. this should really affect any infantry)
Cerebral techno-mitre (this one is just sad, and the worst part is that in some lists, this might actaully be the better pick)

So the reason i dislike our relic choices is that they clash with the gunline aspect of the army OR they have some limited subset of units that can either take them or be affected by it.
I agree that they arent worthless, they can be useful in certain situations. I just feel that they are a part of the codex that feel disconnected from the rest.

keep in mind, i am in no way advocating that admech is a pure gunline army, the problem is that most of our characters want to stay close to long-range vehicles.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, so the new Primaris transport lets its content disembark after it moved (if it didnt advance) but hey cannot charge this turn.

Why do they get it but our transport with a front facong ramp for fast disembark doesnt ?

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Alright, so the new Primaris transport lets its content disembark after it moved (if it didnt advance) but hey cannot charge this turn.

Why do they get it but our transport with a front facong ramp for fast disembark doesnt ?

Assaut rules and 4++.... JUST WHY?! We wait all this rules on OUR transport and .... SM GOT IT ALL! WTF!

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:


I’m glad people are all aboard the solar flare. It’s such a fun relic!

yeah, its really only because our other relics suck and that most list include a mixed detachment anyway that its useable. I'm hoping we get a code 2.0 and that they change our relics (stop with the relic axes!!)

I disagree. Most books only have 1-3 good relics (GSC being the exception). We have the solar flare, cc mask, phosphor serpentia relic has won me games, the ryza gun, and I'm sure I'm missing one more. Overall we've done decently on relics. Especially for an early book.

The problem with our relics is that they want to be in a role that the rest of our army isnt designed for. Our Dominus have a reroll aura in the shooting phase, our enginseers are too frail to get into combat, only the manipulus wants to go into melee range yet we get :

Anzion's Pseudogenetor (nice with the manipulus)
Pater Cog-Tooth (only domini + enginseer can take it)
Uncreator gauntlet (only datasmith)
The red axe (only domini + enginseer can take it)
Adamantine arm
the omnissiah's hand

While the stats of these weapons aren't bad, they want to put our valuable reroll bubbles in situations where they are weak.

For the ranged weapons we have :

phosphoenix (only useable on the dominus and while its a decent weapon, its short range once again goes against what the army wants to do)
skull of elder nikola (yeah ok, this one is clearly OVERPOWERED)
weapon XCIX (a 3 shot autocannon on a dominus only isnt the worst)

I dont have much against these, they can do work. I just find that relics that "upgrade weapons" are uninteresting, i like relics that add mechanics/affect the rules directly.

The non-weapon :

Autocaduceus (this is probably the best relic in the codex in a vacuum)
eye of xi-lexum (again, its short range goes against what the army is designed to do)
Raiment of the tecnomartys (the fact that these generate additionnal attacks instead of hits is laughable, even with kastellan, you'd get only a few more hits in overwatch, the FNP is nice)
Omniscient Mask (situational as hell, it helps dragoons, which characters cant keep up with, hoplites and basic skitariis. this should really affect any infantry)
Cerebral techno-mitre (this one is just sad, and the worst part is that in some lists, this might actaully be the better pick)

So the reason i dislike our relic choices is that they clash with the gunline aspect of the army OR they have some limited subset of units that can either take them or be affected by it.
I agree that they arent worthless, they can be useful in certain situations. I just feel that they are a part of the codex that feel disconnected from the rest.

keep in mind, i am in no way advocating that admech is a pure gunline army, the problem is that most of our characters want to stay close to long-range vehicles.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, so the new Primaris transport lets its content disembark after it moved (if it didnt advance) but hey cannot charge this turn.

Why do they get it but our transport with a front facong ramp for fast disembark doesnt ?

the issue you have with relics is how you build admech mine is always moving more of a wave than a static gunline omniscient mask eye if xi and solar flare are all rediculously strong in the right build. we have a lot of units not designed to be a gunline

Posterchild syndrome strikes again.
They get all the rules other armies should get, even if they dont want it. What the heck would a marine player use that transport for?
Nothing marines can bring thats a danger in shooting has a short enough range to seriously bother.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Posterchild syndrome strikes again.
They get all the rules other armies should get, even if they dont want it. What the heck would a marine player use that transport for?
Nothing marines can bring thats a danger in shooting has a short enough range to seriously bother.

Hellblasters.

Also, why arent we allowed to have options anymore since 7th..
We had buyable 4++ conversion shields/fields and static field which gave even a better invuln, but prohibited actions for one turn and blinding everyone.

U02dah4 wrote:

the issue you have with relics is how you build admech mine is always moving more of a wave than a static gunline omniscient mask eye if xi and solar flare are all rediculously strong in the right build. we have a lot of units not designed to be a gunline

oh i never paly pure static gunline, as i said, the problem is that when a frail character with a reroll hits in the shooting phase can take a relic that is only useable in combat, there is a clear disconnect.
eye, solar flare, autocaduceus are all strong picks, im not arguing against these. I'd like to have less CC weapon relics, thats my main gripe.

How do you use the mask, since it only buffs skitarii, the only unit that truly benefits from it are the dragoons/hoplites.

Guard are far more flexible than Space Marines, thanks to their orders. Space Marines needed a boost, they just weren't very competitive. I know I feel a lot better lining across a table against Space Marines than I do against Guard.

AdMech vs. Guard is like a 60/40 matchup. Against Marines, it's 70/30; against Ultramarine Armor though, 55/45. I agree that Marines needed buffs, but they're really slathering it on now. It's a bit gross and probably an overcorrection given how strong Ultramarines actually are.

yeah, marines needed a subtle bump. This is not a subtle bump.
They are giving them practically everything other armies have, in some cases in better forms.

To me they feel like they lost their identity. Now theyre just "the army with access to everything" (note that doesnt mean everything is awesome, just have access to it)

 Suzuteo wrote:
AdMech vs. Guard is like a 60/40 matchup. Against Marines, it's 70/30; against Ultramarine Armor though, 55/45. I agree that Marines needed buffs, but they're really slathering it on now. It's a bit gross and probably an overcorrection given how strong Ultramarines actually are.

The main problem in the game right now is that GW has a hard time balancing some combinations of rules/units. Whats their solution? let people make their own chapter tactics out of exisintg ones, so now there is a ton of additional combinations that will be possible. Oh and in case this was too easy to balance, lets give them free Additionnal AP. I'm glad marines are getting some much needed love but i agree that at first glance, this might be a big case of overcorrection

The SM books is shaping up to be actually decent. Marines are pretty universally terrible and have been since the edition started with only weird outlier lists and gulliman keeping them relevant. Most of the changes push you away from gulli and they actually encourage you to take pure SM. I'm happy for them even if their tools seem like they are going to make them better against us.

Also money says their transport is 100+pts and it already states it only holds 6 dudes. And they're going to pay for a 4++. Hell with that. I'll keep my dumb cheap boat of a transport.

 Hulksmash wrote:
The SM books is shaping up to be actually decent. Marines are pretty universally terrible and have been since the edition started with only weird outlier lists and gulliman keeping them relevant. Most of the changes push you away from gulli and they actually encourage you to take pure SM. I'm happy for them even if their tools seem like they are going to make them better against us.

Also money says their transport is 100+pts and it already states it only holds 6 dudes. And they're going to pay for a 4++. Hell with that. I'll keep my dumb cheap boat of a transport.

Well put. I can't sing the praises of that stupid boat loudly enough. I do wish that it got the "Assault Vehicle" rule, but It's well costed for the amount of shenanigans it brings to the table.

Ironically, the Skitarii transport is not good with Skitarii. You still want to drop and disembark Skitarii out of Drills. xD

But yeah, I agree that being cheap and fast with decent dakka is great.

I'm less annoyed with the assault rule and more annoyed that their transport capacity allows them a full squad plus character. Why on earth is ours only ten when just about every transport allows it's faction to take a squad plus a character :|

Octovol wrote:
I'm less annoyed with the assault rule and more annoyed that their transport capacity allows them a full squad plus character. Why on earth is ours only ten when just about every transport allows it's faction to take a squad plus a character :|

The main "transport-centric" faction is drukhari and none of their vehicle allow for a full squad + character.

Drukhari get 1 special weapon/5 model in a unit, with min size being 5.
Venoms have a capacity of 5
Raiders have a capacity of 10
Tantalus has a capacity of 16 (but is never played because its 400pts, surprisingly tho, forgeworld got the carry capacity better than GW on that one)

If it makes you feel better, Drill lets us have 2 characters and a full squad. Too bad neither transport lets you take Kataphrons. Still, even 10x Vanguard with 3x Caliver can do a respectable amount of damage with Plasma Specialists and Doctrina; it's equivalent to 3x Ryzaphrons against most targets due to their superior BS, superior if they have any minus to hit; at minus 2 to hit, Ryzaphrons just kill themselves.

So the more Space Marine previews I see the more it seems like they will be pretty superb in murdering chaff, so maybe we should take this into consideration.
An influx of marines would also make our Dakkabots more valuable right? Lots of S6 with good ap and ignore cover should chew through marine squads, even primaris.

im basically expecting to bring more autocannon type weapons.
Even my local guys that avoid primaris are talking Aggressors now. Definitely need to up my multidamage attacks.

Fortunately our mortar tanks are flat 2 dmg, but just ap -1.

My meta has always been marine heavy so I'm not changing much. Liberal abuse of plasma has served me well in the past and I'd imagine it'll continue to do so, alongside some good ol robots to kill stuff with weight of fire. Marines are a lot killier but their durability is still pretty poor, they really have a glass jaw in my experience aside from the odd smash captain or space wolf negative 2 to hit shenanigans. Even when spamming stormshields they can only take so many hits before they start dropping.

It'll suck a lot more going second to them, but it's not like Primaris are suddenly good, just better. I have a feeling marine lists will continue to be the same they usually are, players avoiding troops as much as possible so they can run their favorite toys. Which means an even less durable force praying it does a serious hit early on. Granted I'm not playing top tier marine players, but for the average Joe that's been my experience.

I'm wondering what all the new tricks are going to be with the chapter specific books, strats, etc. There's probably gonna be some kooky stuff hidden in there.

My meta is mostly chaos and eldar.
but im expecting smurfs to start showing up again. They were all over the place at the start of 8th. Girlyman kinda made them broken to start with as nobody could compete with that reliably with indexes.
I'm probably going to have to shift to robots. What ive been doing is lots of Vanguard graia with the graia warlord trait, seeing as how the only race i dont see that working against is Tau castles and Tau literally dont exist around me its been working well. But the new marine stuff makes me think it wont work, the rate of fire im expecting exceeds that of Orks which is just wrong.

And i for one won't expect anything because by now it doesn't look like a buff, but full on rework. What will come may have little in common to Marines we used to know, especially that they will probably also change their point values. It seams that by now designers have better understanding what makes units good or bad so they definitely can change a lot now.