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 Suzuteo wrote:
@Spera
I see. Only thing keeping me from putting them in my list, aside from not having any, is the fact that they are 90 points for an Elite choice. For the same 90 points, I can turn a Ranger into a 4x Breacher unit.

On that note, 4x Breacher looks more appearing than 10x Hoplite still. Especially given how Space Marines have a Bolter for each finger (quite literally for Aggressors) these days. I assume that I can protect them with Boats, but that is another 73 points, and they have to get out some time. Only funny thing is the mortal wounds reflect. Some units may well end up killing themselves on Hoplites. I know that I have intentionally used Robot invulnerables on Lasguns just for lulz.

I thought you always had to pick the best save your model has, only getting to choose if they're the same? Maybe that's an older edition I'll look it up in a bit when I get to the store

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I thought you always had to pick the best save your model has, only getting to choose if they're the same? Maybe that's an older edition I'll look it up in a bit when I get to the store

You can chose whatever model you want, however once that model takes a wound all future wounds must also be assigned to it until it is dead

he meant if a model has multiple saves, i.e. both armor and invul, is one is better he must use that one.

I dont think that rule exists in 8th, least i dont remember seeing it.
edit: just looked, it says the opposite actually. You may chose to use the normal save or its invulnerable save, but not both.

So you can use the robots invul save even if the AP doesnt get through to it. Question is is it worth the extra risk to taking damage to get mortals thrown back.

@vineheart

Cheers dude much appreciated

 Vineheart01 wrote:
he meant if a model has multiple saves, i.e. both armor and invul, is one is better he must use that one.

I dont think that rule exists in 8th, least i dont remember seeing it.
edit: just looked, it says the opposite actually. You may chose to use the normal save or its invulnerable save, but not both.

So you can use the robots invul save even if the AP doesnt get through to it. Question is is it worth the extra risk to taking damage to get mortals thrown back.

I do that if they shot almost all scary guns and I run no risk of losing the whole robot, and a couple wounds are easily repaired.

 Suzuteo wrote:
@Spera
I see. Only thing keeping me from putting them in my list, aside from not having any, is the fact that they are 90 points for an Elite choice. For the same 90 points, I can turn a Ranger into a 4x Breacher unit.

On that note, 4x Breacher looks more appearing than 10x Hoplite still. Especially given how Space Marines have a Bolter for each finger (quite literally for Aggressors) these days. I assume that I can protect them with Boats, but that is another 73 points, and they have to get out some time. Only funny thing is the mortal wounds reflect. Some units may well end up killing themselves on Hoplites. I know that I have intentionally used Robot invulnerables on Lasguns just for lulz.

I can see that. 'm myself are not using breachers, so that may be usually why i take Hoplites. I keep my battalions cheep so I usually have points to spend elsewhere. If you happen to try lists with skitari ac your battalion core, try hoplites, even just for fun and practice. Its always good to check units especially in 8ed when we have patches every had year and bad units may suddenly become good and vice versa.

@Ideasweasel
Wow! You need six Skorpius kits for that. Gotta play that Moneyhammer. (Though I am one to talk; I own 10 Striders.)

But it does look fun. Fully mechanized AdMech. Turn one infiltrate 30 Plasma Vanguard in Boats up the board. Support them with tank fire. Personally, I think Ryza Drills, Lucius Corpuscarii, or Mars Infiltrators are better, but that's just me. Glad we have so many mobile options now though.

@Vineheart01
Technically, saves are done one-by-one, so just roll remaining wounds minus one. You trade 2/6 additional chance to be damaged for a 1/6 chance to kill a Guardsman each dice, and you can repair it. So unless the game is particularly close, why not?

Yeah i know thats technically true, i tend to avoid that sort of die rolling play because it seriously takes forever.
I actually have to do that with graia ruststalkers and that was annoying the crap out of me lol. Since theres a separate roll if the model dies and theres multiwounds, cant just bulk roll

So as it seems like marines get deadlier, is that likely to impact what <forgeworlds> people are taking? i.e. is it still better to stick to Mars & Cawl, or go for Stygies etc. for the added protection vs. marines firepower.

 The Forgemaster wrote:
So as it seems like marines get deadlier, is that likely to impact what <forgeworlds> people are taking? i.e. is it still better to stick to Mars & Cawl, or go for Stygies etc. for the added protection vs. marines firepower.

until it gets a similar treatment to ravenguard, i'll probably still play stygies. Marines are still going to be a mostly shooty army and i value the -1 to hit on my big tanks

Mars and Ryza for damage output. Maybe solo units of Lucius or Stygies.

I have yet to see Stygies-majority lists pull a tourney placing. I think they struggle against gatekeepers like Eldar flyers and Ghostkeels. Reroll all and stratagems to buff shooting are where it is at.

Bethany Taylor won the London Open Part2 with AdMech.

Yeah I saw that, I run a very similar knights list to the chap she beat in the last game to win the tournament.

On paper I knew she’d win before the game started. That amount of breachers can do serious work against a knight.

Good to see Admech tournament wins.

Well, it wasn't a shoe-in. Breachers themselves have to hit and wound the Knights, and enough S6 shooting in return can clear a lot of Breachers. Which is why the Krast Crusader is there. At BAO, I ran a similar combination, except I brought 11 less Breachers and 4x Dakkabots. Oh, and Las Striders, though in retrospect, Autocannons may have performed just as well.

The one thing that is interesting is how many snipers she brought. I would have thought getting some deep strike options would be better. But I guess she was worried about some sort of characters.

This all being said, the core weakness that I have found in these Breacher spam lists is the Triptides matchup. They are T7, shoot S6, are best for deleting big units, and battlesuits aren't vehicles for some reason. SMS are also S5.

EDIT: Interesting point. Bethany purportedly used Acquisition 3 times in a row on the same Breacher unit to make it 2++ with +3 attacks. This has always been a rules gray area, but RAW, it is allowed because end of turn is not a phase. Lol...

 Suzuteo wrote:

EDIT: Interesting point. Bethany purportedly used Acquisition 3 times in a row on the same Breacher unit to make it 2++ with +3 attacks. This has always been a rules gray area, but RAW, it is allowed because end of turn is not a phase. Lol...

That is something I never thought about, given the usual restrictions on strat playing you have to play different named ones to stack effects and they usually apply for just that phase, never know when tactic with acquisition might come in handy if it gets past the TO of course haha

@suzuteo 3x acquisition is pretty naughty that can’t be allowed surely lol

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@suzuteo 3x acquisition is pretty naughty that can’t be allowed surely lol

RAW it is legal since there are 6 phases in the game : Movement, Psychic, Shooting, Charge, Fight and Morale. The "end of turn" isnt one so the restriction on stratagem spam doesn't apply.

Also, thats a lot of command point gone in whot shot.

I guess she really needed to acquire that objective at any cost.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@suzuteo 3x acquisition is pretty naughty that can’t be allowed surely lol

RAW it is legal since there are 6 phases in the game : Movement, Psychic, Shooting, Charge, Fight and Morale. The "end of turn" isnt one so the restriction on stratagem spam doesn't apply.

Also, thats a lot of command point gone in whot shot.

I guess she really needed to acquire that objective at any cost.

Yeah, but kinda opens few possibilities. Now I'm thinking of buffing taser infiltrators for lulz. 5 attacks per piece if you menage to take something hostage can be hilarious.

The one thing that is interesting is how many snipers she brought. I would have thought getting some deep strike options would be better. But I guess she was worried about some sort of characters.

Poxwalker spam plus 1ksons? Thats what I bring against them.

@Ideasweasel, VladimirHerzog
RAW, it's allowed. Stratagems actually have no per unit restriction; the thing that limits this is the number of times they can be used.

Though really, she doesn't even need the 5++ invulnerable save. They come 2+/6++ with Shroudpsalm. Use once for every AP on the incoming S6+ weapon. Lol.

@Spera
Yeah, getting rid of the characters that buff Poxwalkers really slows them down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@the_Grak
So I stand by my point that the Hoplites are a bit meh in their Mathhammer. But I realized something that makes them incredibly good, but which I always thought before was a weakness: THEY HAVE NO FORGE WORLD.

This means that I can have a Ryza Drill and a Mars or Stygies VIII Skorpius, and I can still load my Hoplites into either one of them. This really improves my flexibility during deployment. And in terms of list construction, it frees up taxes.

Here is an example list that I was tinkering with:

Maybe it's me being a total nerd, but I find this is a beautiful list in its rules efficiency. Every last unit is useful.

Big scary Cawlstar backed by two Grators; Manipulus to boost the range. Big scary Dragoon bomb to act as a Distraction Carnifex

3x5 Rangers as tax and screeners. Hoplites with EDT for Doctrina. Two Graia Rangers for 48" anti-Psyker bubbles.

Lucius Enginseer can deep strike independently to grab objectives, Behind Enemy Lines, Linebreaker, Recon, etc.

Ryza Drill + VG + Enginseer can be dropped anywhere on round two.

Pick the RR1s to hit Canticle for the Ryza VG and the Hoplites. Mars units still get their Shroudpsalm on the second dice. This includes the Boat, which also gets Manipulus movement buffs while carrying Hoplites or 2x5 Rangers.

Oh, and another interesting note: You can give Hoplites Acquisition twice for 2++ in fighting, plus +2 attacks.

@Suzuteo: I had the same thought when I was toying with the idea of adding a drill. Also, I almost used Aquisition like that in my last game at TSHFT but it's so damn expensive. If I had, it would have scored me 2 points, though.

I would just use some extra Skitarii to proxy Hoplites in a practice game, you may be pleasently surprised. A thing to note, I don't think they would be any good if they aren't starting in a transport.

 the_Grak wrote:
@Suzuteo: I had the same thought when I was toying with the idea of adding a drill. Also, I almost used Aquisition like that in my last game at TSHFT but it's so damn expensive. If I had, it would have scored me 2 points, though.

I would just use some extra Skitarii to proxy Hoplites in a practice game, you may be pleasently surprised. A thing to note, I don't think they would be any good if they aren't starting in a transport.

Absolutely. They are either going to be in the Dunerider, Drill, or hiding inside a magic bunker for sure.

I LL not write reports about etc since it was extreme terrain . More than we prracttised more than we knew it would have more than 6/8 tables almost completely blos.

That said besides obvious 20-0 vs knights where I even got seiiizeed once as well rest of my games we decide to play me as punching bag to remove gsc from enemy lists and lost all badly.

So the new tank is a must have mobility extremely important and options as well?

A highlight would be my win in solo vs eldar that I did extreme things . But rest was not good. Greece finished 15 and was a bit worse than we wanted but still best place so far . Giving us hope for the future . We had extreme bad luck in most games as a team and we could use some next time .

All in all we had a blast it was suuperb experience I recommend you all go and experience if even if only singles . Great event great people friendly games .

As for ad mech I loved my ryza destroyers rest didn't perform especially robots did actually nothing . One game rbots exploded twice best usage they had in extreme terrain . Snipers love them .

I'm already planning better for the upcoming events leading to 15-17 wtc iin November . So let's talk about new lists and metaaaa.

 the_Grak wrote:
@Suzuteo: I had the same thought when I was toying with the idea of adding a drill. Also, I almost used Aquisition like that in my last game at TSHFT but it's so damn expensive. If I had, it would have scored me 2 points, though.

I would just use some extra Skitarii to proxy Hoplites in a practice game, you may be pleasently surprised. A thing to note, I don't think they would be any good if they aren't starting in a transport.

They can work out of a transport particularly in a ruin on an objective or where they can get in position to screen. They are very resistant to melee charges.

U02dah4 wrote:
They can work out of a transport particularly in a ruin on an objective or where they can get in position to screen. They are very resistant to melee charges.

No arguments here. They have screened out boyz and bloodletters alike. To clarify, I would never put Hoplites in a list without also including a transport that is almost exclusively used by them.

Adding a boat is a very effective force multiplier that takes the unit from decent to great and the combo costs the same as just 10 fulgurites.

Fulgurites in a drill are the best, but Hoplites in a boat are still great and cost just over half as much.

How about keeping 12 Hoplites in a Drill? Going to be honest, I don't think I have it in me to buy another two Duneriders, and I own these Drills already, which have proven quite good. You can deep strike them, drop them in front of your line as LOS blockers, and they can kill vehicles that get too close.

If you're going that route, why not put an Enginseer with the Omniscient Mask in the drill too? Combine that with the +1 str canticle and you've got an anti-armor wrecking-ball.

It's an interesting idea. But very expensive pointswise. I agree and think Boats are the way to go. The only reason why you want the Drill is to do a deep strike with shooting, and the Hoplite for the most part is going to be moving around rather than dropping in like Vanguard or Corpuscarii.

@yoda ah you were at the ETC. Good fun was it? Did you have sisters of battle in your army?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@yoda ah you were at the ETC. Good fun was it? Did you have sisters of battle in your army?

Yes I was and I had yes. Was a superb xperience . Even if ended up as punching bag. The plasma destroyers are killers ...

Absolutely. The two key weapon strength numbers are 6 and 8 for us. Dakkabots and Plasmaphrons are like peanut butter and jelly. It's just really pricey to bring 4x and 6-9x.