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Yeah, but the comment was the relic for melee rerolls.
Which means he needs to be 6" away AFTER the charge.
i dont see that happening unless the dragoons are somehow alive turn 3-4 because it'll take that long for him to hoof it up there or get out of a transport up there.
Be epic if that new rumormill is indeed admech and its some character on "bike" lol then he could keep up easily for that relic

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah, but the comment was the relic for melee rerolls.
Which means he needs to be 6" away AFTER the charge.
i dont see that happening unless the dragoons are somehow alive turn 3-4 because it'll take that long for him to hoof it up there or get out of a transport up there.
Be epic if that new rumormill is indeed admech and its some character on "bike" lol then he could keep up easily for that relic

infiltrate both the dragoons and the manip, 9"
advance the manip, 7" + 4"
move up the dragoons 10"
charge, then fight from two rows 10"

the manip can easily be in range for his aura, but you gotta pay a cp for it.

Technically if you infiltrate him you dont have his aura.
His aura is at the start of the movement phase, hes not on the board till the end.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Technically if you infiltrate him you dont have his aura.
His aura is at the start of the movement phase, hes not on the board till the end.

clandestine infiltration leaves him on the board.... It happens pregame

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah, but the comment was the relic for melee rerolls.
Which means he needs to be 6" away AFTER the charge.
i dont see that happening unless the dragoons are somehow alive turn 3-4 because it'll take that long for him to hoof it up there or get out of a transport up there.
Be epic if that new rumormill is indeed admech and its some character on "bike" lol then he could keep up easily for that relic

Even without the Stygies, Manipulus speed is 8+d6" with the 6" aura from relic or his own bolster. Meaning 14+d6" aura range. Assuming Dragoons charge happening at 9" you can catcg their 5" base regardless of the second row. With a second row it's another 5", meaning additional 10" from the actual combat target.

To be honest, I don't think you need that much movement.

I personally have been studying how Cyle Thompson, Lewis Stolburg, and Mark Hertel play. All of them play mechanized AdMech, with 3-6 Boats and 1-2 Drills. Cyle and Lewis run Cawl as a Warlord; Cyle is 100% Mars; Lewis only runs his tanks as Mars (but might be forced to change because of painting rules) and has Ryza or Stygies supplements; Hertel plays Stygies.

Thompson plays a very midboard-focused game. A large part of his game plan is aggressively moving embarked infantry onto objectives to score the bonus. He doesn't really care if they blow up his vehicles because he moves into spots where he can emergency disembark Rangers and Fulgurites through walls and crates to avoid follow-up LOS. He always tries to get his Fulgurite save improved with an early kill as well (he burns CP to double-fight), then spends time just hunkering down with them using Acquisition. His single Drill is usually reserved to Deep Strike to achieve Recon and bonus objective on turn two; his shooting is focused around removing threats and setting up for the next turn.

Hertel is pretty much the opposite. He runs Stygies and fills his list with Calivers. He just shoves the Boats upboard to physically block assault and disembarks the Calivers behind them to do trades. His tanks murder anything that is mobile. Alas, he recently has been playing more Marines.

Stolburg is more balanced and has a high degree of troop variety; you see him bringing Boats, Drills, Calivers, Infiltrators, Breachers, Dragoons, you name it. He plays aggressively as well, especially with trying to get his Boats into melee. He uses Deep Strike much more than the other two; he drops Drills with Calivers and Infiltrators to just dump wounds onto a target. But otherwise, his game is much less predictable tournament to tournament.

I don't think Manipulus as the bearer of the aura will ever be outrun, and that was my only point. Maybe in turn 3, or when Dragoons have Advanced on Dunestrider.

As for the mobile Admech - this approach has merit, and I start to see why people switch to spam boats lately. Having only 4, and wanting to run 2 Belleros at least, I can't go full in. But I'm already seeing benefits with fast obsecs moving across the board. If only I could get 2 more I would be running obsecs and Fulgurites at the same time. Stygies Breachers Infiltrated into mid-board was also a happy accident I discovered previous weekend to be very handy - although I only have 15 models (and was fielding 10 that event), I could grab middle ruins and threaten overly optimistic Titanic from getting into threat range and LoS.

I agree that Manipulus will not ever be outrun by Dragoons for MOVEMENT. However, charging and then fighting are totally different matters.

Yeah, Breacher spam was fierce a few months back when nobody was rocking power armor. But now, everyone has something set aside for killing Centurions, who have the same profile as Breachers. So it's not as good as it used to be. Mechanized works really well because it marries the durability of our transports with the ObSec and efficient weapons of our Skitarii.

I run 2 Boats and 2 Drills myself, but if I am going to switch to Mars, I might just do 3 Boats and 2 Drills to make sure all 30 Skitarii and 20 Fulgurites can fit. One nice thing about that setup is that I can Deep Strike one of the Drills for Recon purposes and use the other as a shield. Downside though is that Mars is not nearly as hard to kill as Stygies (-1 to hit and T8 is infuriating) and there's no opportunity to infiltrate, which is useful situationally; I am not the type to just shove the entire army forward. But hey, Shroudpsalm and one other Canticle at all times is nice.

 Suzuteo wrote:
I agree that Manipulus will not ever be outrun by Dragoons for MOVEMENT. However, charging and then fighting are totally different matters.

Yeah, Breacher spam was fierce a few months back when nobody was rocking power armor. But now, everyone has something set aside for killing Centurions, who have the same profile as Breachers. So it's not as good as it used to be. Mechanized works really well because it marries the durability of our transports with the ObSec and efficient weapons of our Skitarii.

I run 2 Boats and 2 Drills myself, but if I am going to switch to Mars, I might just do 3 Boats and 2 Drills to make sure all 30 Skitarii and 20 Fulgurites can fit. One nice thing about that setup is that I can Deep Strike one of the Drills for Recon purposes and use the other as a shield. Downside though is that Mars is not nearly as hard to kill as Stygies (-1 to hit and T8 is infuriating) and there's no opportunity to infiltrate, which is useful situationally; I am not the type to just shove the entire army forward. But hey, Shroudpsalm and one other Canticle at all times is nice.

Drill doesn't benefit from canticles anyway. So either Ryza or Stygies for me.

 Suzuteo wrote:
I agree that Manipulus will not ever be outrun by Dragoons for MOVEMENT. However, charging and then fighting are totally different matters.

Manipulus will never be outrun by Dragoons even after the charge if you are positioning correctly.

The Dragoon base is MASSIVE, especially in length. And the back-most Dragoon doesn’t need to be within 1” of the enemy it’s fighting, it only needs to be within 1” of another Dragoon in the same unit that is itself within 1” of the enemy. Therefore the Manipulus can stand close to 15” away from the charge target and still be in range to buff a unit of Dragoons in which all models can fight.

I’ve had my Dragoons exit my Mask radius before. All it takes is a bad advance. But yeah, generally speaking, you can manage it if you try,

 Suzuteo wrote:
I’ve had my Dragoons exit my Mask radius before. All it takes is a bad advance. But yeah, generally speaking, you can manage it if you try,

Even a 1” advance should be fine.

They start together, since both moved 9” from the deployment edge.
Dragoons move 11” (10+1), Manipulus moves 9” (6+1, then +1+1 foe the advance), so Manipulus is now 2” behind the dragoons.
Dragoons charge a target 12” away (though they have a +1 to their roll, they cannot choose a target outside 12”) and sit 1” away to be in combat.
The back-most Dragoon stays 1” away from the front-most Dragoon.
Now their bases reach back 2” and two Dragoon bases back from the enemy. How long is a Dragoon base in inches? 3? 4? Let’s say 3.
So the enemy was 14” away from the Manipulus to start. Now the Dragoons span 8” back from that unit (first Dragoon is 1” away, its base is 3”, the next Dragoon is 1” back, its base is 3” again). Manipulus is 6” back from that 8” point, so they fit precisely on the edge of the aura with the maximum charge distance and the minimum advance roll.

However, our movement is never this precise so you’re likely to lose half an inch or so from the fact that the Manipulus started slightly to the side of the Dragoons and had to move inward slightly to end up precisely back from the back-most Dragoon in a straight line.

So seems like a very niche situation (basically just the charge target being a full 12” away and the Manipulus rolling an advance of 1) that makes it undoable. If a Dragoon base is longer than 3” then it might never be possible to charge something the Manipulus’s aura can’t be in range of after an advance of 1!

Double checked, Dragoons base is 4" long. Meaning in base to base contact Dragoons are adding 8" to the aura range effectively. 9.999" if you're trying to take advantage of an "within an inch" combat rules.

So as long as you deploy the Manipulus right by the Dragoons you should be very nearly guaranteed to be able to have them in the aura for any possible first turn charge. But yeah, deployment does need to have them close, and you do need to leave one hanging back within 1” of the frontline fighters.

If you are doing what I do and Infiltrate them ahead of the Manipulus, it's one turn tops for the charge and fighting auras.

 Suzuteo wrote:
If you are doing what I do and Infiltrate them ahead of the Manipulus, it's one turn tops for the charge and fighting auras.

Ah I was assuming you’d Infiltrate the Manipulus too. I reckon it’s worth the CP to guarantee they get the +1 move, +1 to charge, and reroll aura.

Oh yes. My "fun" list is Stygies assault with Hoplites and Dragoons. Definitely infiltrate the Manipulus behind the transports.

But competitively, it's risky. You have to decide what you are infiltrating before you know for sure who is going first or where everything is. At the same time, you have to consider if you want to do Prepared Positions or not, but you still need to save enough CP to swing twice and do maybe two turns of Acquisition. (I tend to not do it, but I can see the advantage of having essentially three Canticles.)

I actually think infiltrating the Manipulus is a protection rather than a risk - if they seize and go first then you just use the 9” move to put him out of LoS.

As for CP, I’m not running breacher lists so never use Acquisition.

Well, he's always next to a brick of Dragoons and a Drill, so I find that he is usually pretty safe.

Fulgurites abuse Acquisition. You can advance them, Acquisition, and just watch them fall back. A lot of people don't even bother trying to shoot a -1 to hit, 2++/5+++. Though I guess with Mars, there is no minus to hit, but you get my point.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Well, he's always next to a brick of Dragoons and a Drill, so I find that he is usually pretty safe.

Fulgurites abuse Acquisition. You can advance them, Acquisition, and just watch them fall back. A lot of people don't even bother trying to shoot a -1 to hit, 2++/5+++. Though I guess with Mars, there is no minus to hit, but you get my point.

I’ve not managed a first turn charge with fulgurites ever, let alone one that nets them a unit kill and leaves them on an objective for Acquisition. So haven’t encountered this situation! My opponents may be too savvy to my use of Fulgurites.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Oh yes. My "fun" list is Stygies assault with Hoplites and Dragoons. Definitely infiltrate the Manipulus behind the transports.

But competitively, it's risky. You have to decide what you are infiltrating before you know for sure who is going first or where everything is. At the same time, you have to consider if you want to do Prepared Positions or not, but you still need to save enough CP to swing twice and do maybe two turns of Acquisition. (I tend to not do it, but I can see the advantage of having essentially three Canticles.)

Why is this, yeah you spend it before you know who's going first etc, but you decide where to move them after you know, and if you know you're spending the CP pregame you can spend that CP without worry and choose not to move the units.

In my eyes it's the same as using servitor manipul and the extra invulnerable save and never needing it, you factor it in when list building.

The little test of Ruststalkers in both loadouts. And... they still suck combat wise, no surprise. AP0 on their weapons is a joke, no points drop will change that.

They might have merits however. 1: They can perform as a cheaper Elite slots filler. 2: 8" movement is no joke - they don't need transport to go into places, especially in Stygies. Their speed nad Infantry keyword allows for early spread on the table, giving access to otherwise unobtainable objective markers - a huge thing for ETC. And they can perform as a cheap carnifex - 30 attacks with S5, mortal wounds on 6s and high speed will attract more attention then they deserve.

dadamowsky wrote:
The little test of Ruststalkers in both loadouts. And... they still suck combat wise, no surprise. AP0 on their weapons is a joke, no points drop will change that.

They might have merits however. 1: They can perform as a cheaper Elite slots filler. 2: 8" movement is no joke - they don't need transport to go into places, especially in Stygies. Their speed nad Infantry keyword allows for early spread on the table, giving access to otherwise unobtainable objective markers - a huge thing for ETC. And they can perform as a cheap carnifex - 30 attacks with S5, mortal wounds on 6s and high speed will attract more attention then they deserve.

i've tried them only once and their problem really cannot be fixed by points unless they become basically free.

i like the idea that Ruststalkers are basically mortalwound dealers as the odds of them doing damage outside of that is unlikely...
but it shouldnt be on a 6+

 laam999 wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
Oh yes. My "fun" list is Stygies assault with Hoplites and Dragoons. Definitely infiltrate the Manipulus behind the transports.

But competitively, it's risky. You have to decide what you are infiltrating before you know for sure who is going first or where everything is. At the same time, you have to consider if you want to do Prepared Positions or not, but you still need to save enough CP to swing twice and do maybe two turns of Acquisition. (I tend to not do it, but I can see the advantage of having essentially three Canticles.)

Why is this, yeah you spend it before you know who's going first etc, but you decide where to move them after you know, and if you know you're spending the CP pregame you can spend that CP without worry and choose not to move the units.

In my eyes it's the same as using servitor manipul and the extra invulnerable save and never needing it, you factor it in when list building.

Spending say 4 CP on turn one to infiltrate is a strong option, but it carries opportunity costs:
1) I am running Fulgurites now, and making them swing twice and then Acquisitions is VERY expensive. I think virtually all of my CP is spent on making them impossible to kill so I can hold objectives and such. One nice tactic I have come to appreciate is to pin something big and keep most of my guys >1" away from the people doing the pinning.
2) If I am playing Mars, I might want the option to do Prepared Positions. It gives cover in the open for 2 CP. This is Shroudpsalm, essentially. But since I am Mars, I can also roll two dice to get another two Canticles on top of this. Having three army wide buffs on turn one is really strong. It almost puts us at Space Marine levels of bonuses.

I actually find that it is unnecessary and possibly even dangerous to infiltrate too aggressively. In fact, if I go second, infiltrate usually means moving into cover.

Then again, I also tend to do this in deployment:



It's funny, I took this picture earlier today to explain it to someone. And I've used it three times already. Basically, my current thinking is Skitarii in the Drills, Fulgurites in the Boats. If the enemy are directly in front, they have to kill a Drill and a Boat to kill one unit of Fulgurites. If they kill a Drill, I usually deploy survivors between the Boats or into an adjacent ruin. (I try to hug a wall with the infiltration, but sometimes, you just want to shove them into their face.) Most of the times though, this arrangement forces them to move to the side.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

dadamowsky wrote:
The little test of Ruststalkers in both loadouts. And... they still suck combat wise, no surprise. AP0 on their weapons is a joke, no points drop will change that.

They might have merits however. 1: They can perform as a cheaper Elite slots filler. 2: 8" movement is no joke - they don't need transport to go into places, especially in Stygies. Their speed nad Infantry keyword allows for early spread on the table, giving access to otherwise unobtainable objective markers - a huge thing for ETC. And they can perform as a cheap carnifex - 30 attacks with S5, mortal wounds on 6s and high speed will attract more attention then they deserve.

i've tried them only once and their problem really cannot be fixed by points unless they become basically free.

Hoplites are strictly superior to Ruststalkers if we're talking low points infantry.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i like the idea that Ruststalkers are basically mortalwound dealers as the odds of them doing damage outside of that is unlikely...
but it shouldnt be on a 6+

oh the concept behind them is awesome, its just that if i want melee mortal wounds output, ill just get myself some fulgurites.

If ruststalkers had something like they gain +1 to wound for every turn they've been in combat with the unit theyre fighting would be a good start.

Or give them their grenades back

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i like the idea that Ruststalkers are basically mortalwound dealers as the odds of them doing damage outside of that is unlikely...
but it shouldnt be on a 6+

oh the concept behind them is awesome, its just that if i want melee mortal wounds output, ill just get myself some fulgurites.

If ruststalkers had something like they gain +1 to wound for every turn they've been in combat with the unit theyre fighting would be a good start.

Or give them their grenades back

Or both, I mean they literally have grenades on their models...
I also don't get why they have such low LD, they almost died once already and are full of hatred.

I thought you infiltrate with Stygies after knowing which one has turn 1?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i like the idea that Ruststalkers are basically mortalwound dealers as the odds of them doing damage outside of that is unlikely...
but it shouldnt be on a 6+

oh the concept behind them is awesome, its just that if i want melee mortal wounds output, ill just get myself some fulgurites.

If ruststalkers had something like they gain +1 to wound for every turn they've been in combat with the unit theyre fighting would be a good start.

Or give them their grenades back

Theres that too.

Ruststalkers are technically cheaper than Fulgurites but...not 1/3 the damage potential cheaper.
Really all Ruststalkers have going for them is theyre a bit faster. Not a very strong bonus when you arent exactly resilient or killy.

Probably the only unit in the codex i'd say is a dud even casually. Im pretty much only continuing my use of them because atm i still have pointgaps to fill lol. (being rather lazy on building/painting everything...)

They need to give them another attack at the very least. That or make a Sicarian specialist detachment, with an ability to make them have 3D6 charges or something.

 Suzuteo wrote:

Hoplites are strictly superior to Ruststalkers if we're talking low points infantry.

As long as ETC is superstitious about FW, Hoplites are not for me. Just like the Drills :(