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The Cult Mechanicus side is so underwhelming because they were designed with a wildly different thought process. They were intended to be fielded with the three layered Canticles system that rewarded them for fielding the same list(War Convocation) and abusing Skitarii units to get the perk.

What Skitarii need is their design space back. Canticles need to get reworked to be effective for Cult units, but Doctrina Imperatives need to come back(and that's where a Skitarii HQ comes in) as a standard rule not a garbage Stratagem for one unit.

Just got my 7th Skitarii codex out and now regret reminding myself how much of the depth and variety of abilities we used to have :|

Everything just feels flat now lol

The saddest part is that those kinds of abilities would be perfect to reintroduce as a reason to have an Alpha/Princeps in a squad and move Skitarii to a system where the leader is an upgrade rather than mandatory.

I agree, I would really like to see a new HQ choice, if not multiple. I do think it's unlikely we'll get a new HQ model with engine war unless they release one that is only available in a boxed set a la Saga of the Beast, but I never understood why we couldn't just get the Custodes treatment — just make rules for an HQ that can be built out of the same box as the Skitarii infantry or something with a head swap and appropriate wargear or the like. They could even just release an upgrade sprue like they did for various chapters' primaris. It wouldn't be ideal but it would be a relatively efficient way to do it.

Also as a side note, I agree that the Dominus' repair ability is no where near as good as GW originally thought it might be, so they're still overcosted at the moment. They're not unusable but they should really be 10-20pts cheaper.

That's why I would like to have us gotten a 'Command Squad' or something of that nature for the Skitarii. We have minimum squad sizes of 5 for our infantry(except for the Secutarii from Forge World, who are minimum of 10) and get 10 per Skitarii and 5 per Sicarian box. Squad could have been four Skitarii, one getting an option to take the Omnispex and another with an option for the Data-Tether and the squad being able to provide their benefits to nearby units rather than 'their' unit.

I've also thrown around ideas in the past of specialized weapon squads. Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm sitting on a bag of Arc Rifles, Arquebi, and Calivers from all my stuff. Being able to have specialized Techxorcism Squads wielding Arc Rifles or Plasma Caliver outfitted squads in units of 4 with no other options in the squad but as Heavy Supports or Elites would be interesting.

The repair is a bad mechanic because it's one of those things that's very hard to balance between casual and competitive play in a game without alternative activations and where damage is so high. In competitive 40k models with less than 16ish wounds tend to either exist as full health or dead, with very little in-between. Repair isn't effective in those circumstances unless it pretty much restores the model to complete health...but if you do that, it messes up casual games by creating impossible to kill models.

It would have made a lot more sense to make repair take effect more like a FNP - for example, once per battle round, any model that can repair can make immediate repairs and restore 1 wound (or 1d3 for the better repairers) to an eligible model. That way it doesn't have to be overtuned to be useful because you'll always get a chance to use it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

...I've also thrown around ideas in the past of specialized weapon squads. Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm sitting on a bag of Arc Rifles, Arquebi, and Calivers from all my stuff. Being able to have specialized Techxorcism Squads wielding Arc Rifles or Plasma Caliver outfitted squads in units of 4 with no other options in the squad but as Heavy Supports or Elites would be interesting.

^This. I totally agree, I've always wished we had a special weapons squad type thing. I just find a single arc rifle or two thrown in here and there to be really low impact, but if we could take a squad of 5 with 4 arc rifles for 43pts as an elites choice or something that would make them interesting.

I also think it would make our army more interesting if there was more reason to take our unit upgrades. Like maybe there could be a stratagem that allows a model with an omnispex to give that ability in a bubble to friendly skitarii so long as it didn't shoot that turn or something.

The point on repair being overvalued is right. We don't have a heavy tank like other factions. We have Knights, but even then, it's not worthwhile to spec for repair anymore, since a lot of armies can T1 kill a Knight.

 Suzuteo wrote:
The point on repair being overvalued is right. We don't have a heavy tank like other factions. We have Knights, but even then, it's not worthwhile to spec for repair anymore, since a lot of armies can T1 kill a Knight.

I agree, and it's a bit of an all your eggs in one basket situation to hope that they can't — even if it can be very powerful in some casual games.

On a bit of a tangent from there, speaking of knights, what does everyone think about running armigers? I know they aren't the most reliable but I like how fast they are. I was thinking of giving a list with three of them a try when I get the chance. The idea was to run house Taranis so they're harder to kill and can stand back up again and get repaired potentially.

I only have 2 armigers so I haven't been able to get house rules or anything, but I've tried them out (they're magnetized so I've used both Helverins and Warglaives). The Warglaives performed the best when I ran them with a pack of Sydonian Dragoons and just completely saturate a flank, lol. Their melta really helped weaken/scare any of the big stuff the Dragoons would have difficulty with one shotting and their 14" movement with a 5++ helped get them where they wanted (usually). The Dragoons exploding attacks could also help unlock the Armigers if they got swamped with infantry. They actually were nice to have, just a shame they require a big boi knight in order to make the most of them. I feel they complimented the Dragoons quite well.

The Helverins weren't that fun because they just act like turrets and I already have plenty of that and S7 AP-1 is already saturated, despite their flat 3 damage being nice, that AP-1 is just weaksauce.

Everytime I looked at Armigers their cost (points) put me off including them. Helverins job is covered by Autocannon balistarii for the most part. Warglaives are covered by dragoons and any decent gun on the numerous models with have.

Its their mobility that you'd take them for, problem being we have nothing that can keep up with them lol

So anyone care to play the engine war preview date roulette

Place your bets ladies and gents!

I'd just take a look at other preview/reveal timelines and their associated releases and then just add 2 months to ours, haha.

True, I doubt anything is on schedule release-wise now, but it would be nice if they gave us some more insights into the new units in the meantime.

Also that makes sense, so I guess running three armigers is about as janky as I suspected then lol. Not expecting miracles but I still have three painted up and ready to hit the table when things settle down, they do seem fun at least.

 TheArchmagos wrote:
True, I doubt anything is on schedule release-wise now, but it would be nice if they gave us some more insights into the new units in the meantime.

Also that makes sense, so I guess running three armigers is about as janky as I suspected then lol. Not expecting miracles but I still have three painted up and ready to hit the table when things settle down, they do seem fun at least.

To draw on the Facebook admins again, we don't normally see rules previews until a pre-order date is set. So in normal circumstances, if they announced pre-order this weekend for the following weekend. We'd start seeing rules previews on Monday/Tuesday and then the actual release would have been 24th/25th of April. But we've currently seen NOTHING for the other 3 factions that are part of that release other than the obligatory short stories. Daemons are the only faction that have seen nothing at all, both knight factions were in the last short story and admech was clearly the other two.

It would be nice if they released the digital version of the psychic awakening on schedule. I just want something I can use to plan out the rest of my list with.

Octovol wrote:

 TheArchmagos wrote:
True, I doubt anything is on schedule release-wise now, but it would be nice if they gave us some more insights into the new units in the meantime.

Also that makes sense, so I guess running three armigers is about as janky as I suspected then lol. Not expecting miracles but I still have three painted up and ready to hit the table when things settle down, they do seem fun at least.

To draw on the Facebook admins again, we don't normally see rules previews until a pre-order date is set. So in normal circumstances, if they announced pre-order this weekend for the following weekend. We'd start seeing rules previews on Monday/Tuesday and then the actual release would have been 24th/25th of April. But we've currently seen NOTHING for the other 3 factions that are part of that release other than the obligatory short stories. Daemons are the only faction that have seen nothing at all, both knight factions were in the last short story and admech was clearly the other two.

UK Lockdown is almost certainly going to be til the end of May. I don't think we'll see a physical release of anything til mid June.
Fingers crossed they do a ebook release, but I don't think we'll see that if the UK Gov keeps doing the "we'll check again in 14 days" strategy rather than just saying - "It's almost certainly going to be another month."

 TheArchmagos wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
The point on repair being overvalued is right. We don't have a heavy tank like other factions. We have Knights, but even then, it's not worthwhile to spec for repair anymore, since a lot of armies can T1 kill a Knight.

I agree, and it's a bit of an all your eggs in one basket situation to hope that they can't — even if it can be very powerful in some casual games.

On a bit of a tangent from there, speaking of knights, what does everyone think about running armigers? I know they aren't the most reliable but I like how fast they are. I was thinking of giving a list with three of them a try when I get the chance. The idea was to run house Taranis so they're harder to kill and can stand back up again and get repaired potentially.

I feel like I've said it a few times but I enjoy them. I run Raven for fluff reasons but I really like them for warglaives. Never tried helverins but they seem solid.

Warglaives are really great at distraction carnifex roles, taking out softer fire support units on the back row, bullying weak objectives holding units, sneaking along a flank and causing trouble, and occasionally suckerpunching a tank between the melta and melee. They're extremely mobile and can be pretty flexible for the cost. They combo very well with dragoons. Honestly the only two issues I have with them is the stupid rule where they can't provide CP unless a big knight shows up, and that they can only be repaired one wound at a time by techpriests. Other than that and dopey looking heavy stubbed they're very solid. As a Metallica player, they do an excellent job keeping up with my vanguard, kastelans, dragoons, and hover tanks. Makes for an insanely aggressive admech army, at least compared to what you normally see for admech.

They're definitely worth it in an even remotely casual meta. They can hold their own decently in most matchups, they just don't like ITC, so of course for most super competitive play they're bad about giving up points. Kind of like IG, a really solid thing for chapter approved or other style missions, but just can't cut it in the ITC format.

I'm glad to hear Armigers can hold their own in casual games! I painted up three of them just because I like the models and I'm excited to test them out in game once this pandemic is more under control!

I also enjoy a bit of ITC and I might stubbornly try to make them work there too depending on how my games go. Do you think they don't cut it in ITC because they give up too many secondaries? I was thinking they could at least be useful in that format due to their mobility and because they're easier to hide behind terrain in ITC. Although I can't exactly see them doing well against Imperial Fists or something of that power level.

So Peltasts seem to have a generally bad rap online, but I keep coming back to them and thinking "they seem alright". They're not going to set the world on fire, but then they're only 80pts a unit (85 with a data tether) - same price as Vanguard with no special weapons, so you need to set your expectations accordingly.

It's a shame that they can't be Stygies, as then those 30" S4 Ap-2 shots would be the main draw. But most vanguard aren't going to be operating at ranges where the Stygies buff comes into it and trading -1T in close combat and the D2 on a 6 for an extra shot at 12" and an extra 2 at 18-24" seems a reasonable trade off. Especially when you've go the no-LOS option and the long ranged AP-2 version to fall back on.

They can still ride transports (including Stygies ones for the pregame move), benefit from canticles and the Doctrina stratagems. I'm not sure I've seen that many lists with a Dominus supporting Vanguard either, so whilst that's something they can't do (again, shame about that 30" profile) it doesn't seem much of a loss.

No objective secured, but they are a unit that can do what both rangers and vanguard are able to do, deal with light infantry up close (even out of LOS for the Peltasts) and also sit back on an objective and still contribute (either out of LOS but still putting out an 18" threat aura, or just shooting into the midfield with 30" guns).

Is it just that they come in 10s, and if they came in 5s we'd seem them all over the place? The fact they're elite (though a cheap one for brigades using Kataphrons as troops)? Or are they just an £-expensive unit that's a bit too much of a jack of all trades and in the middle of the pack - when everyone is building tournament lists out of the better units? I.e. they're alright and not bad, but that's not enough? No unique selling point or am I missing some glaring flaw?

 Tastyfish wrote:
So Peltasts seem to have a generally bad rap online, but I keep coming back to them and thinking "they seem alright". They're not going to set the world on fire, but then they're only 80pts a unit (85 with a data tether) - same price as Vanguard with no special weapons, so you need to set your expectations accordingly.

It's a shame that they can't be Stygies, as then those 30" S4 Ap-2 shots would be the main draw. But most vanguard aren't going to be operating at ranges where the Stygies buff comes into it and trading -1T in close combat and the D2 on a 6 for an extra shot at 12" and an extra 2 at 18-24" seems a reasonable trade off. Especially when you've go the no-LOS option and the long ranged AP-2 version to fall back on.

They can still ride transports (including Stygies ones for the pregame move), benefit from canticles and the Doctrina stratagems. I'm not sure I've seen that many lists with a Dominus supporting Vanguard either, so whilst that's something they can't do (again, shame about that 30" profile) it doesn't seem much of a loss.

No objective secured, but they are a unit that can do what both rangers and vanguard are able to do, deal with light infantry up close (even out of LOS for the Peltasts) and also sit back on an objective and still contribute (either out of LOS but still putting out an 18" threat aura, or just shooting into the midfield with 30" guns).

Is it just that they come in 10s, and if they came in 5s we'd seem them all over the place? The fact they're elite (though a cheap one for brigades using Kataphrons as troops)? Or are they just an £-expensive unit that's a bit too much of a jack of all trades and in the middle of the pack - when everyone is building tournament lists out of the better units? I.e. they're alright and not bad, but that's not enough? No unique selling point or am I missing some glaring flaw?

I agree, if they just made them able to benefit from forge worlds and minimum unit size five they would be an amazing way to fill our brigades and I think you would see three units of 5 or two of 5 and one of 10 all over the place.

Even still though you do bring up some good points. They're not amazing at anything but they're pretty cheap for 10 models. Maybe a unit of 10 with the data tether for +2 to hit with doctrina strats could be good against eldar fliers and primaris spam? I feel like you're right though, we would see more of them if they cost less monetarily. At the moment they're probably just a bit pricey for a unit people feel lukewarm about.

I think the issue with Armigers is that the Knight codex doesn't do a whole lot to make them viable on their own.

I would guess the next Engine War previews are going to start the last week of April.

I am personally most excited for the flying transport. Duneriders and Drills are great, but diversifying into a flying transport can be very useful on maps with dense ruins. Alternatively, if the gunship turns out to be underpriced, I may just spring for that as well. Either way, this thing will probably complete our transformation into Imperial Dark Eldar.

That being said, the flying Sicarians with the flamers show promise too; we know that flying and flamers are both very potent rules in 8E. If they throw in some sort of Fire and Fade stratagem, that would be very nice indeed.

The reason peltasts don't get much play is the one you yourself brought up: they can only be taken in minimum sizes of 10, and, more importantly, they don't do anything that troops can't do. Being a troop choice grants you CP and gives you ob-sec, both fantastic bonuses. Being elite gets you nothing.

The only reason to take an elites choice is if it can do something a troops choice can't. They don't, ergo, they don't get used.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really want the cavalry to be good, though I'm almost positive it won't be, because they're almost uniformly terrible in 8th edition. They lose all the bonuses of being infantry and usually get nothing to compensate for those losses.

 TheArchmagos wrote:
I'm glad to hear Armigers can hold their own in casual games! I painted up three of them just because I like the models and I'm excited to test them out in game once this pandemic is more under control!

I also enjoy a bit of ITC and I might stubbornly try to make them work there too depending on how my games go. Do you think they don't cut it in ITC because they give up too many secondaries? I was thinking they could at least be useful in that format due to their mobility and because they're easier to hide behind terrain in ITC. Although I can't exactly see them doing well against Imperial Fists or something of that power level.

You'll see what I mean. If you're playing any serious ITC stuff their weaknessess start to show up very quickly. The other big issue is "magic box" buildings hiding stuff so they can't melee it, stuff on the second floor of ruins that you cant melee, and like suzetuo said, there's no real buffs for them. Almost every strat, relic, and ability they get requires a big knight to help with aside from a couple.

About the only neat trick is to make one a freeblade or a character so they get at least some bonuses. Problem is freeblade armiger's are much more likely to roll their bad traits with their worse leadership.

Hop on a box and suddenly a 30 foot tall robot can't stomp or punch you any more. Even though he can walk right over you if you aren't on the box to go stomp or punch somebody else.

Just like how a S2 T2 grot can kool-aid man through a stone wall but ghaz gets to waddle around the long way.

Welcome to 8th edition!

Yeah that makes sense, I hope they'll add some fluffy stratagems or synergy for Admech working with Knights since that is a fluffy kind of soup. Still though, you're right that I'll likely have to drop the armigers if I want to do OK in ITC.

Also yeah, as much as I've been enjoying (most) aspects of 8th edition, I do think they need to redo the terrain rules. At present they feel like an afterthought. I have to play my terrain with ITC rules so that games aren't just "I shoot all my guns, now you shoot all your guns."

But to get back on to speculating about Engine War, now that we've seen more images of the models what do people think the transport capacity is on that flier? I originally assumed it would be 5 but after seeing more images I'm starting to think it could be 10 — which would be strange as a design to choice to make it compete so directly with the dunerider though.

If it’s 10 troops that would be so good. Especially if it’s 12-16”

Gunship is purportedly 6 models, flyer 12.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Gunship is purportedly 6 models, flyer 12.

Interesting, if the gunship has decent weapons/pts cost and can transport 6 models that could actually prove compelling. It could certainly make running a single inquisitor more interesting if they can hop in for the ride with a minimum squad of rangers or vanguard

Lil' birdy that gave me the numbers said Skitarii or Secutarii only.