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lol I like the actual kits so I will use them, and no im not a millionaire but normally i would be travelling to a tourney every month including hotels and with the country situation I havn't been able to which means more money for plastic

So following up on my prior post about theEFCM strategem, which shuts off auras. Someone just pointed this out to me: Saviour Protocols is also an aura ability.

And apparently, both FLG and NOVA have made rulings to that effect due to Vox Scream.

Bring a bomber, cheese Tau Riptide stacks.

Edit: Good luck trying to shoot 3 full units of those off the board. Do you realize how much firepower you would need to do that?

I'm not really interested in how untouchable something can be. There should always be a counter to something, if not, then it's broken.

Remember when we used to deploy dragoons 9" from anything, move and guarantee a charge? Yeah, can't do that any more. Any time the odds are so stacked in someone's favour, something is eventually changed. That could be and frequently is a global change to something that affects everyone, just so someone could have their impossible unit. This isn't our fault though, it's down to the poor or lazy rules design. If the rules gave more widely useful benefits we'd see fewer death stars and uber units, less nerfs and much more balanced armies with a greater variety of forces.

Not all of the custom dogmas are bad, I didn't name all of them, I just named the ones that had such a narrow field of vision that it irked me. It irks me even more that I actually really like some of them but that I have to pick a crap one to get a good one. The trade-off shouldn't feel like "if I want this good bonus I have to take this crap one" it should be "if I take this bonus I'll be good at that, but not as good at this" All these marginal increases reduce the epicness of the game. Like when you're playing an RPG and you get some equipment that gives you +5% on something, like wow, so epic this will change my life! It doesn't, it's dull. A few tangible, impactful bonuses, that's what makes things cool, moments of wow. All these little things might all add up to something greater for one or two units, but it makes the rest of the army feel limp and pointless. That's why we've had so much back and forth discussion over the effectiveness of the new units; Not enough impact.

I also will never advocate for multiple Forgeworld setups, for the same reason. Whats is the point in giving us an Army faction choice where you balance the pros and cons only to then go "oh I don't really have to choose? Oh well, I'll have my cake and eat it then" whether the rules allow it or not it bothers me that people feel they have to do it because the benefits of choosing just one arent good enough; Just make that single choice have a really big impact and feel connected to your other choices such that actually making it matters. Cuts down on balance complexity as well.

I think I've digressed and ranted enough lol Just constantly having to faff about is really getting to me when all I want is to pick something cool without feeling like i've kicked myself in the ankle to get an ice cream


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Suzuteo wrote:
So following up on my prior post about theEFCM strategem, which shuts off auras. Someone just pointed this out to me: Saviour Protocols is also an aura ability.

And apparently, both FLG and NOVA have made rulings to that effect due to Vox Scream.

Bring a bomber, cheese Tau Riptide stacks.

A lot of the people in that thread seemed to be fine with Vox Scream but totally against ours despite it requiring a specific unit with specific wargear within a tiny range. Where Vox Scream is just: Point at unit 18" away, remove aura effects, for 2cp It feels pretty justified when you compare it to Vox Scream imo.

Ours is like some sort of mini aura EMP lol.

Vox Scream allows them to do the same, point at riptide, whoops no saviour protocols!

You can even point it at Techmarine Gunners to turn off TFCs. Haha.

Anyhow, Tau players can be really precious at times. The concept behind their competitive army is essentially built on abusing rules. They will object to anything that invalidates their ridiculous, non-interactive Shield Drone spam. I remember that Wrath of Mars vs. SP got all sorts of inconsistent rulings.

U02dah4 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:

Octovol wrote:
Ya know the more I look at these new rules the more see traces of whichever fethwit they let write the first codex. Don't get me wrong the good stuff is good, almost like it was written by a different person, but the bad stuff...

Bonuses to Radium weapons -- oooh only 2 units have them.
Bonuses to rapid fire weapons - only 2 weapons.
1" extra movement on units that were intentionally 1" slower and also have long range weapons anyway.
Overwatch on a 5 or 6 - we already have that, in more than one place.
6++ on wounds - already had it.
Extra 3" on broad spectrum data tether range, we literally only take that for the extra +1 on the doctrine strat.

Like, get rid of this person already. They suck at rules writing! lol

And I think the only cavalry in the game who doesn't get a bump to T?

I don't think Rough Riders get bonus Toughness either.

Rough riders definitely didn't/dont and they are the only other T3 cavalry unit in the imperium.

Granted, it is FW, but Death Korps Death Riders are T4.
Atalan Jackals are T4.
Anything on a bike/jet bike are +1T.
I guess heavily augmented dog-horse-cybernetic soldiers don't count?

Jackals aren't cavalry. Bikers aren't cavalry.

Well then, I now see the differentiation GW chose to use between those 2 keywords, lol.

Seekers are also only T3

There's not that much cavalry though tbh. The dog that's being ridden is just a servitor with dog legs and head though if we're picking them apart lol

 Suzuteo wrote:
You can even point it at Techmarine Gunners to turn off TFCs. Haha.

Anyhow, Tau players can be really precious at times. The concept behind their competitive army is essentially built on abusing rules. They will object to anything that invalidates their ridiculous, non-interactive Shield Drone spam. I remember that Wrath of Mars vs. SP got all sorts of inconsistent rulings.

Tau players can also counter it through proper screening. As i joked to one take a 100 kroot spread them out and the vehicle wont get close and if the tau player goes first they will destroy the flyer. Its a nice trick its not broken.

Tau aren't really impacted. Because of the way SP is written, you gotta get it within 6 of the unit whose SP you wanna turn off, not just of the drones. A tau castle isn't going to let you park a flyer that close to its key units.

how so my impression of the wording is you would only need the drones

Yeah, actually, I was misreading the datasheets. The datasheets for riptides and stuff like that have savior protocols on them, but that's because you can take drones with them. So it would be only the drones I guess.

They're still gonna have lots of drones on the other side of the castle though that are going to be in range though, even if you disable the drones on one side.

It also only disables models, not units, while savior protocols works on units. So unless you cover the whole unit, it doesn't actually do anything unless you cover the whole unit, because as long as one model still has it, you can allocate wounds to the unit, and then allocate them to a model even if that model's SP are disabled. So even for just 2-drone units, you're going to struggle to disable more than 1 or 2 whole units; it will barely make a dent.

Thing is, Tau has traditionally relied upon balling up their units around Commander. Even if the mere presence of the Copter forces them to spread out, it is a huge advantage. Focusing fire on a Riptide with access to only 5 Drones is way better than 10.

Not how it actually plays out. In practice, this and the ork bomma strat just make tau castle even more carefully. It's easy to screen out any place a plane can land inside your castle, and because SP is by unit, not by model, the strat is unlikely to disable more than like two two-drone units tops because it has to cover the entire unit to have any effect. Disabling 4 drones isn't going to change anything. The explosion and potentially the bombs are a lot more dangerous to tau than the aura, especially since those can't be SP'd off onto drones.

The only time the strat is going to do anything is if the bomber survives late into the game and can come in once they're already so depleted they can't screen it out. But at that point, disabling the last few drones isn't likely to make much difference; they're already vulnerable. You'd have been better off just buying another 110-30 points of shooting to shoot more drones off for those 3-4 turns instead.

Well, I won't do it if it's stupid. But forcing people to be careful instead of allowing them to be aggressive is always a plus.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
tbh i think the only custom traits i see used at ALL are tyranids.
I probably would have used some of these dogma combos but the base dogma Canticle boost is just way too good to pass up. Hell it even makes me think of using other dogmas besides Mars/Stygies for once (granted, those two are still top pick)
I legit thought about a proper Ryza list for some reason lol. I dont think it would work but the canticle made me start thinking about it.

I see marine and CWE using custom traits quite a lot.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Well, I won't do it if it's stupid. But forcing people to be careful instead of allowing them to be aggressive is always a plus.

This is why I virtually always take 2 MSU of rangers with 2 x Arquebus each. They're useful on their own but more than anything they force people to consider where their psykers are and their commanders and officers. They occasionally prevent your opponent from moving their characters into the optimum positions. Sure they might not kill something every turn (which is all anyone talks about here) but the psychological impact of them covering the entire battlefield is not to be sniffed at.

Der Kommissar's thoughts:

Serby raiders vs sulpher hounds: unless they ditch the points on the phosphor pistols, raiders are so far-superior to hounds there is no question. Raiders firing galvanic carbines get 1 MW+ -1ap on a to-wound of 6, and the scout move; hounds just get the -1T to enemies in melee. The pistol cost looks like it should be "baked in" to the per-model cost.

The pteraxii are a more difficult choice:

Skytalons are 154 points for 10 5+MWs if you move 1 talon over 1 enemy model, moves to 3+ if 1 talon flies over a vehicle. Add in fly-fallback over enemy units and they make for a great screen. Guns are almost "meh", but decent weight of fire.

Sterylizors are viciously under-costed assault units with 3 S5 attacks /model(4 S6 for alpha) on the charge + 12" AP-1 flamers. All for 174 in a full unit.

Haven't gotten a look at the Thropters yet, but not looking too good from the smattering I could gather thus far.

Yes raiders are superior but sulphur hounds aren't bad you just need to max out raiders first and I cant see many doing it although I would love to see a maxed out cavalry list.

I don't think pteraxii is a difficult choice because the answer is neither

Our existing options do the drop in better because of the lack of survivability again it's not that pteraxii are massively weaker it's just that most lists probably only want 1 or 2 units that perform that role and lucius corpuscarii are way more efficient for your first and WoM infilitrators the second, plus 8th terrain rules make them hard to hide being on flying bases and with no durability splat.

Thropters transport is a waste it can't even transport secutarii despite having the keyword

Bomber is to situational will be good vs custodes and intercessor blobs but irrelevant vs knight and guard should see play in some fun lists but it wont be a mainstay of competative

stratoraptor this will atleast help in all games but its fractionally overcosted. - needs chaf launcher for survivability but the strat to switch off auras is half the reason to consider it. I cant see it being a prime choice now but if 9th gets rid of the troop requirement it could edge in

Hey all, been a long time ! With the leaks from Engine War and the new releases it got me motivated to continue repainting my army and the 9th Ed. looks promising on several aspects.

I'd love to write a big block about the tactical opportunities in list-building with this book, in which way we can use the new units alongside the old ones, but let's be real: we know next to nothing about how 9th will work and the impactful changes we will see in the game. For example, I've read several posts talking about the EFCM stratagem with the problem of placing the flyer in the right place, and how it can be screened easily. Remember that in the announcement, it has been said that Flyers will be able to go anywhere they wish. How, we don't know yet, but this solve already the problem of it unable to fly over a place because of some dudes hanging out there.

They're talking about better rules for CC, and especially staying in CC. This can be a huge boon to our melee units depending on how the rules are, and influence whether we need more or less screening in the future. Depending on how the rules for big units still shooting while locked will work, it can make my 4 Robots with Fists&Flame even tastier if they can fry the screens bogging them down. I've had a game where 10 Reivers tried to kill my Onager with knives for 3 turns, if I can still shoot while this happens now I'll be less cautious when deploying it and that changes many things as I need less screens and can spread my army differently.

Concerning the Pteraxii that can "redeploy every turn" I need to remind you that with the current ruleset, we can only enter in deep strike by turn 2 or 3. So either you use the ability to redeploy once in T2, or you have them start on the board and do it twice. But I don't believe they'll be alive long enough for that. Still I believe it's a neat ability that can twist a game in the right conditions !

I'm going to study this a little bit more, but with 9th dropping end of July and the current quarantine it's not very useful to try to figure out stuff that I won't be able to test before a few months when my LGS will host games again. Also, the price of the new releases haha. I still don't own a single Skorpius.

EDIT: There's also the subject of how CPs will work. It looks like (my own assertion) we'll have to decide on the start of our turn which stratagems to use because of the new Command Phase. We also don't know yet how many CPs a regular battle-forged mono-codex army will have. They say "More CPs !" but we don't know in which conditions and by which amount. If you are planning on making nuke drops with 8 CPs on a single action you might want to wait until we have more information before spending the money to buy the units.

That's not how redeploy works. Units that don't start on the board have to show up by T3 or count as destroyed, but units that start on the board, or come onto the board and then are removed again, can use redeploy abilities or strats on any turn.

Nope thats not how the pteraxii rule works there are a few existing units that do that ambull, bore wurm. So long as you have been deployed at some point before the end of turn 3 you can go back into deepstrike without dieing

We are not trying to figur out ninth only discussing engine war pre ninth because that is still a couple of months

Ninth discussion is pointles

yukishiro1 wrote:That's not how redeploy works. Units that don't start on the board have to show up by T3 or count as destroyed, but units that start on the board, or come onto the board and then are removed again, can use redeploy abilities or strats on any turn.

My bad then, I stand corrected. I wasn't aware of other units that could use such an ability. Then I reconsider and see it's far less limited, I stand by my opinion that their survivability is still dubious though.

U02dah4 wrote:Nope thats not how the pteraxii rule works there are a few existing units that do that ambull, bore wurm. So long as you have been deployed at some point before the end of turn 3 you can go back into deepstrike without dieing

We are not trying to figur out ninth only discussing engine war pre ninth because that is still a couple of months

Ninth discussion is pointles

Thanks for the examples I didn't know these units.

Well it's not pointless if you're considering your purchases based on 8th, I just wish to avoid the usual tragedy that follows a new edition with people that have unplayable armies all of a sudden.

I definitely wouldn't buy anything new right now till we know how the 9th edition rules are going to shape up, unless you're so committed to the models that you'd want them even if they're total junk in the new edition. That just seems like common sense.

We know the models base rules are staying the same so we have rough idea what they do.

Sure certain things can change list requirements taxes etc.

But it takes time to paint units up. So might as well start now either way ive ordered a manipulus and 6 boxes of raiders.

U02dah4 wrote:
Yes raiders are superior but sulphur hounds aren't bad you just need to max out raiders first and I cant see many doing it although I would love to see a maxed out cavalry list.

I don't think pteraxii is a difficult choice because the answer is neither

Our existing options do the drop in better because of the lack of survivability again it's not that pteraxii are massively weaker it's just that most lists probably only want 1 or 2 units that perform that role and lucius corpuscarii are way more efficient for your first and WoM infilitrators the second, plus 8th terrain rules make them hard to hide being on flying bases and with no durability splat.

I think the strats certainly open up a bit more room for them there too. Corpuscari might have the edge in shooting, and infiltrators being better with WoM. But neither can give -1 to hit to a Deathstar, which more than makes up the gap between them and the other two along with their movement (outside of a Stygies list).

I've also noticed that the rad saturation secondary trait is also not limited to non-vehicles.

 Tastyfish wrote:


I've also noticed that the rad saturation secondary trait is also not limited to non-vehicles.

Yeah, and Sulphurhounds are the best deliverers of that debuff.
Fingers crossed for intended wording and no erratas.
T7 knights are waaaay less fearsome.

Waiting for 9th rules is still pointless. All those rules could change 3 months in to 9th. You're better off buying what you love or is cool (as well as useful) than buying something just for its rules. Rules change all the time.

Waiting for faq/errata on engine war isn't a terrible idea though, just to clear up the edge cases where we like 2 units but some wording pushes us one way or another.

Always play whats cool and fun to you, not whats currently best in slot.

Otherwise you end up like those people that literally bought an entire Iron Hands army pre-faq and got pissed about it. Dumbasses....

Really the only time i actively avoid using certain units is if theyre so bad they basically make me auto-lose. Thats pretty difficult to be THAT bad.

What the units do is a pretty fundamental part of whether they're cool or not. It's hard to find a carnifex cool when a grot on an oil barrel can fart in his general direction and be totally immune to melee, because of the silly 8th edition keyword rules.

I am totally on board with playing what you like instead of the current FOTM, it just seems a bit silly to be dropping hundreds of dollars now on models with only a vague idea of how they'll fit into a new game, when you would know if you just waited a few weeks.

But people should definitely do what makes them happy.