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 Stormonu wrote:
If there is an Old/Primaris schism, I have to wonder how they’ll handle offshoot books like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves - if at all.

Of course, GW isn’t going to announce when they will cut the old marine line off - if they did so they risk being stuck with a bunch of unsold plastic. I’d watch for kits going “out of stock” and not being restocked as the measure of the line’s remaining life. With “online exclusive” being a precursor to the models ascendant demise.

blood angels, space wolves, dark angels etc. will probably get the Black Templar treatment. folded back into the "adeptus astartes" codex with a couple of unique units and thier own chapter rules. probably somethign in the fluff there about them being successor chaptors to their original legions or on the fringes of the imperium, or cut off from it, so not yet taking part in the primaris upgrade

That said I have a bit of a theory that in 9th somehow the space wolf planes and storm ravens will be able to hold primaris marines.call that one just a hunch but they are big expensive kits that are new enough (especially the space wolf ones) that GW will want to keep selling them.

ERJAK wrote:
Hopefully. They're ugly.

They can't be ugly. They've been profitable as ****.

Gitdakka wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Well I think you are in a minority there. I'm glad you're getting enjoyment from it still though!

I would accept that I might be in the minority. . . but I would say that it's probably in GW's best interest to keep the army supported. I know a LOT of people who have old armies lying around, but just haven't played in years. If they could take that old army to the club and start gaming with it, that's a gateway to more purchases, imo.

I expect it to be fully supported for something like a decade. And eventually they'll be like "it's legal to use Tacticals as Intercessors" and then another few years and they'll quietly drop that. Though in casual games people won't care if you're using your 20 year old sculpts, it'll be a nice novelty to play against even!

I anticipate it being VERY slow.

I dont think the GW buissness model will make them last another 10 years. So if I can use my tacticals for that time then fine by me. And if they happen to ditch marines (wich they wont, its their strongest concept ever created) then I'll just proxy them as the new jazz, if im even still playing the game by then.

Gw are gakking over their fans so bad right now I'm sure they are digging their grave buissness wise.

I'd happily convert my BA to primaris if that meant they worked again. But the rules for both primaris and non-primaris are gak, so why bother?

Doubt they will get mothballed anytime soon. There are still too many drawbacks to playing all-Primaris armies.

At my FLGS, we see a lot of people starting Primaris armies, assuming they are the latest and greatest. Eventually, their lists change to include regular Marines.

While this is an anecdote, I can't imagine it's too different elsewhere. I don't think GW is going to get rid of a product that's still selling. Also, it's going to take time for GW to release the supporting units that would make Primaris thrive (like transports, bikes, etc).

@OP:

This was obvious as soon as the first Primaris reared it´s ugly head. I can still remember GW fanboys attacking me for that insight but in the end the revelation gleaned with the help of my crystal ball turned out to be true.

Gitdakka wrote:
I dont think the GW buissness model will make them last another 10 years. So if I can use my tacticals for that time then fine by me. And if they happen to ditch marines (wich they wont, its their strongest concept ever created) then I'll just proxy them as the new jazz, if im even still playing the game by then.

Gw are gakking over their fans so bad right now I'm sure they are digging their grave buissness wise.

Here's my issue with this whole situation:
If GW had just "mothballed" Old Marines at the start of 8E, i.e. released Intercessors that could take special/heavy weapons and stopped selling Tactical Marines entirely, than you COULD still use your Tacticals as those Intercessors.
GW have released new models for old units for YEARS including changing their names and nothing has ever stopped players from being able to use old models when the rules are still there.

The issue with doing this "slow release" is that GW is trying to have it's cake and eat it too. They want to sell Primaris as whoe new units that Vet and new Marine players alike want for their collection. And by doing so, Tactical and Intercessors are considered DIFFERENT units. So when Tacticals eventually go obsolete, there will be resistance to players just using them as Intercessors because they were never the same unit

-

 Stux wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Well I think you are in a minority there. I'm glad you're getting enjoyment from it still though!

I would accept that I might be in the minority. . . but I would say that it's probably in GW's best interest to keep the army supported. I know a LOT of people who have old armies lying around, but just haven't played in years. If they could take that old army to the club and start gaming with it, that's a gateway to more purchases, imo.

I expect it to be fully supported for something like a decade. And eventually they'll be like "it's legal to use Tacticals as Intercessors" and then another few years and they'll quietly drop that. Though in casual games people won't care if you're using your 20 year old sculpts, it'll be a nice novelty to play against even!

I anticipate it being VERY slow.

I think you're delusional.

Old marines have 3 years tops. With gws break neck pace of releases all old characters will get primaris versions in that time. Calgar is the first of many. Old marines are the walking dead.

In short, here's more or less how it'll go. (and we're already seeing some of this).

1) Outside of maybe a random special named character you will not see another "normal" non-Primaris release for loyalist Space Marines. Horus Heresy may continue to be the exception (having the latest "normal" marine squad boxes, etc.) But for main-fluff, going forward? No more releases.

2) The rules will be around for a long time. Short of having a new revised "Primaris" only codex, old marines will exist in the rules and codices for another 5-10 years at minimum. GW has moved on but they're not stupid. There are literally thousands if not millions of players out there who own classic marines, and they're not all immediately replacing their armies with Primaris. So....models? No. Rules, yes.

3) Now the caveat to point #2: rules will get worse. We can see this already happening. Generally speaking you'll see a continue power creep...and slowly old marine units will cease getting addressed (rules, points updates, etc.) as we move forward. This then creates point #4.

4) With both actual price and rules getting progressively worse for old units, eventually sales will slow. This in turn will allow GW to justify eventually canning old units and boxes, until old marines are no longer being sold. This may take 10 years or more, but it's coming. It doesn't make any logical sense for GW to sell a product that doesn't move a lot of units. So yes there will be a time when Primaris simply "the" Space Marines. You're already seeing hints at this with the new Apoc box being the first all-Primaris kit that doesn't have Primaris in the title. It's just Space Marines.

Now the people who decry this happening are...well, they're wrong. However they also assume when someone says "old marines are dead", that GW is suddenly going to remove them from the next codex and stop selling the models. GW isn't that dumb. Old marines will be around for a while. Even if GW stopped selling them tomorrow, there are so many friggin' marine kits in existence they'd be around on eBay for 30+ years.

My only point of advice to people is that if you're starting a Space Marine force...there's little reason to start collecting old units. There's a silver lining to this storm cloud though and that's point #5...

5) If you're a Space Marine player or starting to become one....you can generally expect new Primaris units every six months for the next 5 years. That's something you can't say about any other race/army/faction. The Primaris train won't stop. It'll be consistent for a loooong time. Yes the models are mediocre sometimes and the prices are fething stupid. If you can stomach it, though, you have "surprises" every couple of months.

 Galef wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
I dont think the GW buissness model will make them last another 10 years. So if I can use my tacticals for that time then fine by me. And if they happen to ditch marines (wich they wont, its their strongest concept ever created) then I'll just proxy them as the new jazz, if im even still playing the game by then.

Gw are gakking over their fans so bad right now I'm sure they are digging their grave buissness wise.

Here's my issue with this whole situation:
If GW had just "mothballed" Old Marines at the start of 8E, i.e. released Intercessors that could take special/heavy weapons and stopped selling Tactical Marines entirely, than you COULD still use your Tacticals as those Intercessors.
GW have released new models for old units for YEARS including changing their names and nothing has ever stopped players from being able to use old models when the rules are still there.

The issue with doing this "slow release" is that GW is trying to have it's cake and eat it too. They want to sell Primaris as whoe new units that Vet and new Marine players alike want for their collection. And by doing so, Tactical and Intercessors are considered DIFFERENT units. So when Tacticals eventually go obsolete, there will be resistance to players just using them as Intercessors because they were never the same unit
-

It's a waaaaay less controversial route to do what they did, however.

Look at it this way, for marine players, Primaris are like releasing a new marine Chapter, like a new Space Wolves or Blood Angles or even Deathwatch, with their respective iconic units. Except in the case of Primaris, EVERYBODY can take them, as they just add to your existing collection. You don't have to start a new army to use them (although many do), so you throw out the regular barrier to entry, give players what they've wanted (remember all those truescale conversions?), and just let it simmer for a few years.

Imo it's very smart. I don't like the idea that they'll be getting rid of my army (and maybe they still won't), but it is a very clever way to do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:

3) Now the caveat to point #2: rules will get worse. We can see this already happening.

Yeah. . . they're really not. Only now with the Rapid Fire rules am I even considering taking a unit of Intercessors for competitive reasons. I can't think of a single Primaris unit that is obviously more competitive than a similar traditional one, except maybe the Librarian, which I think costs about the same and is 1 more wound and 1 more attack.

Honestly, I think the switch will be more jarring. Once the primaris line is fleshed out, the next edition will only have primaris rules, but they’ll state (And encourage) on the community site that you can use your oldmarines in place of primaris figures - just not in tournaments. I don’t think they’ll be supporting oldmarines even five years out from now.

 Elbows wrote:
In short, here's more or less how it'll go. (and we're already seeing some of this).

1) Outside of maybe a random special named character you will not see another "normal" non-Primaris release for loyalist Space Marines. Horus Heresy may continue to be the exception (having the latest "normal" marine squad boxes, etc.) But for main-fluff, going forward? No more releases.

2) The rules will be around for a long time. Short of having a new revised "Primaris" only codex, old marines will exist in the rules and codices for another 5-10 years at minimum. GW has moved on but they're not stupid. There are literally thousands if not millions of players out there who own classic marines, and they're not all immediately replacing their armies with Primaris. So....models? No. Rules, yes.

3) Now the caveat to point #2: rules will get worse. We can see this already happening. Generally speaking you'll see a continue power creep...and slowly old marine units will cease getting addressed (rules, points updates, etc.) as we move forward. This then creates point #4.

4) With both actual price and rules getting progressively worse for old units, eventually sales will slow. This in turn will allow GW to justify eventually canning old units and boxes, until old marines are no longer being sold. This may take 10 years or more, but it's coming. It doesn't make any logical sense for GW to sell a product that doesn't move a lot of units. So yes there will be a time when Primaris simply "the" Space Marines. You're already seeing hints at this with the new Apoc box being the first all-Primaris kit that doesn't have Primaris in the title. It's just Space Marines.

Now the people who decry this happening are...well, they're wrong. However they also assume when someone says "old marines are dead", that GW is suddenly going to remove them from the next codex and stop selling the models. GW isn't that dumb. Old marines will be around for a while. Even if GW stopped selling them tomorrow, there are so many friggin' marine kits in existence they'd be around on eBay for 30+ years.

My only point of advice to people is that if you're starting a Space Marine force...there's little reason to start collecting old units. There's a silver lining to this storm cloud though and that's point #5...

5) If you're a Space Marine player or starting to become one....you can generally expect new Primaris units every six months for the next 5 years. That's something you can't say about any other race/army/faction. The Primaris train won't stop. It'll be consistent for a loooong time. Yes the models are mediocre sometimes and the prices are fething stupid. If you can stomach it, though, you have "surprises" every couple of months.

I pretty much agree that this is the most likely path.

GW had painted themselves into a corner, as Space Marines are their most popular line, but it was not only complete, it was beyond complete. It includes wildly unnecessary options like Centurions and the Stalker/Hunter. The most obvious things to "add" were revisions on some of the older, less detailed kits (bikes, scouts, maybe terminators). Even that isn't that much.

Primaris allow them to reboot the line, with new models, rules, and fluff, while allowing players to use their old models. I think it's clever.

As for when the old models are removed... it's going to take a while. There are a lot of old marine kits that will likely never be directly replaced, especially when you look at the successors. It will take a looooong time to get to primaris Sanguinary Guard or Black Knights.

As interest in the old marines flags, more and more will go direct only, but that doesn't mean they won't be profitable to keep making. As Elbows speculated, I'm guessing we'll see less availability, less competitive rules, and eventually they full range will exists solely as a relic.

 Elbows wrote:
In short, here's more or less how it'll go. (and we're already seeing some of this).

1) Outside of maybe a random special named character you will not see another "normal" non-Primaris release for loyalist Space Marines. Horus Heresy may continue to be the exception (having the latest "normal" marine squad boxes, etc.) But for main-fluff, going forward? No more releases.

2) The rules will be around for a long time. Short of having a new revised "Primaris" only codex, old marines will exist in the rules and codices for another 5-10 years at minimum. GW has moved on but they're not stupid. There are literally thousands if not millions of players out there who own classic marines, and they're not all immediately replacing their armies with Primaris. So....models? No. Rules, yes.

3) Now the caveat to point #2: rules will get worse. We can see this already happening. Generally speaking you'll see a continue power creep...and slowly old marine units will cease getting addressed (rules, points updates, etc.) as we move forward. This then creates point #4.

4) With both actual price and rules getting progressively worse for old units, eventually sales will slow. This in turn will allow GW to justify eventually canning old units and boxes, until old marines are no longer being sold. This may take 10 years or more, but it's coming. It doesn't make any logical sense for GW to sell a product that doesn't move a lot of units. So yes there will be a time when Primaris simply "the" Space Marines. You're already seeing hints at this with the new Apoc box being the first all-Primaris kit that doesn't have Primaris in the title. It's just Space Marines.

Now the people who decry this happening are...well, they're wrong. However they also assume when someone says "old marines are dead", that GW is suddenly going to remove them from the next codex and stop selling the models. GW isn't that dumb. Old marines will be around for a while. Even if GW stopped selling them tomorrow, there are so many friggin' marine kits in existence they'd be around on eBay for 30+ years.

My only point of advice to people is that if you're starting a Space Marine force...there's little reason to start collecting old units. There's a silver lining to this storm cloud though and that's point #5...

5) If you're a Space Marine player or starting to become one....you can generally expect new Primaris units every six months for the next 5 years. That's something you can't say about any other race/army/faction. The Primaris train won't stop. It'll be consistent for a loooong time. Yes the models are mediocre sometimes and the prices are fething stupid. If you can stomach it, though, you have "surprises" every couple of months.

on number 5 that is really how I look at Primaris. I wait until a new box is a solo release (liek the units from shadowspear) and will grad them as they become available to slowly build up a primaris force. it is actually kind of cool knowing an army is going to get more and more options and building it piece by piece as it is released. like will we be getting reminator or bike equivilants? probably, but which will be first?

Yeah I had to warn my buddy who started collecting Primaris not to stockpile. No point in buying 2-3 of each kit now....if they're not painted by the time new stuff comes out in 3-6 months. Then we saw the teases for all the new units, etc.

Do...not...stockpile Primaris. Just buy a couple boxes, paint them and by the time you're done, you'll probably have more new kits.

PS: Insectum, you can disagree...but I likewise don't agree with your statement. I think a basic Intercessor squad is far better than a current tactical squad, etc. Notice the Intercessor price gap closed to normal tactical marines (which are woefully priced).

 Elbows wrote:
Yeah I had to warn my buddy who started collecting Primaris not to stockpile. No point in buying 2-3 of each kit now....if they're not painted by the time new stuff comes out in 3-6 months. Then we saw the teases for all the new units, etc.

Do...not...stockpile Primaris. Just buy a couple boxes, paint them and by the time you're done, you'll probably have more new kits.

PS: Insectum, you can disagree...but I likewise don't agree with your statement. I think a basic Intercessor squad is far better than a current tactical squad, etc. Notice the Intercessor price gap closed to normal tactical marines (which are woefully priced).

It depends on how you set up your army a bit, but Tacticals with a Heavy or Specials still out-damage Priamris vs.a whole variety of targets. . . plus they get transports that don't cost 300 points. Primaris are fine for bullying lighter infantry, but vs. anything else, Tacticals take the day.

But that's more or less solely based on the Primaris line being thin right now. Out-damaging isn't a big deal when your Primaris squad has 20 wounds vs. 10... for what, three points more per model?

When the Primaris line is fleshed out - there will be zero competition. I think it may take a loooong time though before you see a proper replacement for things like Death Company etc. They could be around for 5-10 years before models eventually replace them.

I don't see Space Marine being completely squatted any time soon. Why?

1. They've been around as the poster boys for too long. It's one thing to squat Tomb Kings. Things which weren't selling amazingly anyway. Classic SM have been the forefront of GW marketing for decades though. To remove them completely would go right against the GW ethos of a model still being usable ten years later.

2. Too many tie-in kits. Wolf upgrade packs, Blood Angels ones, and so on.

3. Popularity. Too many alienated players.

No, we won't see a full squatting. But that doesn't mean things are going to remain the same. A phased withdrawal is likely. When the story next moves forward in time, we'll likely see more Primaris units released, whilst SM classic kits are slowly moved to Direct Order only. We might get a cataclysmic story event to explain how regular marines are becoming rarer (corrupted gene seed from so many generations, some weird Chaos virus, or so on).

Meanwhile,the codex options will then get narrowed down, whilst Primaris Chapter specific rules are bulked out. Primaris will become default for Wolves, Angels, and so on. Small upgrade packs released to mesh with the new kits. A phasing out of the older chapter specific kits will then follow.

Roll on another three four years, another story advance, and the regular space marine codex will be down to a single list at the back of the Primaris codex. Basic entries for 'Dreadnought', 'Terminator', and so on. You'll still be able to play with whatever you have, but the individual flavour will be gone. Meanwhile, whatever kits can be both Primaris and traditional Marine (Predators, Thunderfire Cannons, etc) will be repackaged with new artwork to support the Primaris line.

Then we have a new edition, et voila. Primaris are the default. You can still buy your cheap old marines on ebay and field them, but they won't have particularly good rules. They'll have no new releases (beyond maybe an anniversary character). You might get chapter specific rules for a classic list at the back of a Primaris codex. But they won't be heading the codex up anymore. They won't be on the shelves to buy. Primaris will be the default with chapter upgrade packs and codices for flavour. It'll mean phasing out the odd kit here and there (Space Wolf flying chariot kit, for example), but most of it will just be shuffled in under simplified headings.

All those upgrade kits fit on primaris.

Your points 1 and 3 are the same point. And they both dont matter. The sm line doesnt go away. Its not equivalent to tomb kings. Its a restructure of a line. Not a squating. Sm will still be here. The old models wont.

 Elbows wrote:
But that's more or less solely based on the Primaris line being thin right now. Out-damaging isn't a big deal when your Primaris squad has 20 wounds vs. 10... for what, three points more per model?

When the Primaris line is fleshed out - there will be zero competition. I think it may take a loooong time though before you see a proper replacement for things like Death Company etc. They could be around for 5-10 years before models eventually replace them.

Depends on what your targets are, or if your opponents are dealing in D2 damage weapons anyways.

We'll see what the Primaris shape up to be, but the point is, for now, they're not obviously better. For the Troops choices in SM book, Scouts are infiltrators, Tacticals are damage dealers vs. >=Elite targets, Primaris are tanks vs. <Elite targets. For example, Salamander Tactics and min+Las Tacticals are fantastic, and Tacticals with Plasma/Grav can murder Primaris. 5 Primaris is 85 I think, 5 Tacs with a Las is 90. The choice isn't "what's better?", the choice is "what's the intended role?". That's why the Intercessors aren't replacing Tacs yet.

 Lance845 wrote:
All those upgrade kits fit on primaris.

Sorry, but...Have you actually looked at them? Because old SM torsos aren't really designed to fit on Primaris. Old school boltguns aren't Primaris equipment. The Dark Angel robes? I mean, seriously. At least half the components on your average old chapter specific upgrade sprue aren't really appropriate or a good fit.

Your points 1 and 3 are the same point. And they both dont matter. The sm line doesnt go away. Its not equivalent to tomb kings. Its a restructure of a line. Not a squating. Sm will still be here. The old models wont.

...You're aware you're agreeing with me, right? I used the phrase 'full squatting' to mean doing a Tomb Kings. Which I don't think will happen. For the reasons I gave above. I believe that we're going to see a gradual rolling back of traditional marines in advertising, removal from the shop floor to direct only (they're always under pressure to find shelf space), phasing out of earlier chapter specific upgrade kits in favour of new ones designed to synch up with the Primaris Kits, condensing of the traditional Marine lists to generic entries at the back of Primaris focused codices, and so on.

You'll still be able to buy the basic SM kits and play with your older SM armies. But every year you'll come a little closer to being that guy who walks in with a Lost and the Damned army.

I don't see "old marines" being squatted, so much as primaris becoming the new "normal".

Eg. I have 50 tactical marines....zero intercessors. In a couple of years time, the new "tactical squad" will BE intercessors. So I will just continue to use my old bolter boys as their new 2 wound successors. Shuffle your heavy and special weapon boys into Elite/Heavy support slots and it fits pretty well.

They just need to flesh the line out. Some manner of assault marine, heavy weapon and bike equivalent. Make a Gravis armor "tactical squad and Assault squad" to replace terminators. All the crew of the old vehicles are now primaris......aaand done. Your old marine army is now fully primaris marines...or you can get the new primaris models for additional hotness.

Feels like a way to both replace the old marine line AND upgrades the default space marine profile a level without anything too earth-shattering happening.

 Carnage43 wrote:
I don't see "old marines" being squatted, so much as primaris becoming the new "normal".

Eg. I have 50 tactical marines....zero intercessors. In a couple of years time, the new "tactical squad" will BE intercessors. So I will just continue to use my old bolter boys as their new 2 wound successors. Shuffle your heavy and special weapon boys into Elite/Heavy support slots and it fits pretty well.

They just need to flesh the line out. Some manner of assault marine, heavy weapon and bike equivalent. Make a Gravis armor "tactical squad and Assault squad" to replace terminators. All the crew of the old vehicles are now primaris......aaand done. Your old marine army is now fully primaris marines...or you can get the new primaris models for additional hotness.

Feels like a way to both replace the old marine line AND upgrades the default space marine profile a level without anything too earth-shattering happening.

That really is what should have happened. All marines get the primaris 2A 2W statline. Primaris get their new inflexible loadouts while the old squad comps keep their flexible loadout but perhaps pay a premium for it. Intercessors and Tacticals can be the same since Intercessors get better bolters instead of special/heavy.

It seems to me that the sensible thing to do is to break them into separate codexes for ninth ed or even before.
Have the fluff make them in different companies or whatever.
You can ally fully but detachments must be fully old school marines or primaris, they even get to double the codexes they sell.
The old school range is still a modern line of sculpts compared to a lot of armies and I'm sure will outsell plenty of armies if still an option.
I'm sure there's plenty of money to go round for power armour in the future.

I don't believe that Oldmarines have crap rules to ensure that Primaris sell better. Loads of brand new releases have had initially underwhelming rules, including Primaris models.

Yeah, GW is pretty bad internally about writing good rules; I’m sure from the start they have been trying to skew the rules to make Primaris more appetizing, but we’ve seen that hasn’t really worked for them. If they were to try harder to really discourage oldmarines, it would likely backfire dramatically and explosively.

right now there's no evidance old marines arte going away, and everything said here is baseless speculation. the "core kits" tactical devestator and assault marines for marines are not that old. (if you include the MK IV and III kits,they're all less then 5 years old) so they'll likely be around awhile. what we might start to see though is More and more old Marine stuff becoming direct order only. my guess is in a decade or less the shelves of your local GW store will be exclusivly primaris stuff, but all old Marine stuff will be orderable online. and thats already beginning. Land Raiders are now direct to order


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, GW is pretty bad internally about writing good rules; I’m sure from the start they have been trying to skew the rules to make Primaris more appetizing, but we’ve seen that hasn’t really worked for them. If they were to try harder to really discourage oldmarines, it would likely backfire dramatically and explosively.

skew the rules for primaris from the start? hardly they've been pricing primaris VERY VERY conservitively

I think they're still figuring it out honestly, I think primaris and death guard are both products of what was intended to blow up 40k, their designs are significant departures, far more detailed, and encourage a considerably smaller number of models on the board.

And then the reaction to AOS happened and they haven't really been able to sort out which of the aspects of it was most to blame for it so they aborted and we got the 8th we've got.

I would be very surprised if we saw new old marines ever again. But I bet you we'll see more design callbacks to iconic old marine pieces in future primaris along with more radical departures. I just hope they don't let them bloat as much.

that's entirely possiable. it's also possiable they planned to be cautious and test the waters from the get go, I mean Marines make up 60% of GW sales, so they'd be understandably very very careful about killing the goost that laid the golden egg. I tend to agree it's unlikely we'll get any old Marine kits but... what do we need? Old Marines is a pretty complete range. hence the bloat.

kingheff wrote:
It seems to me that the sensible thing to do is to break them into separate codexes for ninth ed or even before.
Have the fluff make them in different companies or whatever.
You can ally fully but detachments must be fully old school marines or primaris, they even get to double the codexes they sell.
The old school range is still a modern line of sculpts compared to a lot of armies and I'm sure will outsell plenty of armies if still an option.
I'm sure there's plenty of money to go round for power armour in the future.

I'd say they're already well on the way to a soft division already.

Mini-marines function quite a bit better than Primaris in a Deathwatch list due to how much more SIA helps Stormbolter Veterans than it helps Intercessors, and the DW Primaris squad is a lot more awkward to use.

Meanwhile Suppressors are quite a bit more on-meta than anything you can build with a Devestator squad and Lasfusil Eliminators look like they might match Lascannon Devs while being quite a bit harder to shift. Odds are once Primaris start getting melee options with actual melee weapons they will similarly outshine Assault Marines and Vanguard Vets.

I still think anyone with a lot of mini-marines should have an exit strategy for them, be it DW or Renegade Marines. I keep thinking about preemptively picking up some Daemons, but I'm trying not to take that step until I have to.

Meanwhile Suppressors are quite a bit more on-meta than anything you can build with a Devestator squad and Lasfusil Eliminators look like they might match Lascannon Devs while being quite a bit harder to shift.

and will likely be pointed approperately, (by approperatly I mean "too high")

BrianDavion wrote:

Meanwhile Suppressors are quite a bit more on-meta than anything you can build with a Devestator squad and Lasfusil Eliminators look like they might match Lascannon Devs while being quite a bit harder to shift.

and will likely be pointed approperately, (by approperatly I mean "too high")

Maybe, maybe not. Consider that a Havoc squad with three Auto Cannons would come in at 95 points; Suppressors are up one wound, AP 2 instead of AP 1, and can leave melee and still shoot if something sweeping advances into them for just 10 more points and giving up a couple of Boltguns that you probably try not to get close enough to use anyway. I'd probably take the Suppressors over the Havocs if I had the option.

The baseline Eliminator squad is 72 points with a gun that is definitely better than a 2 point Sniper Rifle.
Even being conservative (and by that I mean figuring GW priced the Bolt Sniper Rifle really badly) the base unit is at most 66 points, only one point more than a Devastator squad. If the Lasfusil doesn't wind up at a blatantly incorrect price it would put the comparisons between Lasfusil Eliminators and Lascannon Devs in a very similar spot to the Suppressor vs AC Havocs comparison.

Admittedly the Lasfusile not winding up blatantly mispointed is a coin toss.