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Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






 Xenomancers wrote:

I agree. I think it will be an arquebus equivalent. Possible with better AP. Straight up better than the Eliminators rifle vs most things BUT it doesn't have the versatility. 90% of the time I am using the +2 to hit ignore LOS round for the eliminators because I can move and shoot it and hit on 2's. Mainly including them so I can kill tau drones and DR and the like.


We totally jacked the neutron laser why stop there?
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 fraser1191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

I agree. I think it will be an arquebus equivalent. Possible with better AP. Straight up better than the Eliminators rifle vs most things BUT it doesn't have the versatility. 90% of the time I am using the +2 to hit ignore LOS round for the eliminators because I can move and shoot it and hit on 2's. Mainly including them so I can kill tau drones and DR and the like.


We totally jacked the neutron laser why stop there?

Yeah ours shoots twice though.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine



Ottawa

Martel732 wrote:
I think GW thinks they are giving good rules. In spite of all tournament data to the contrary.


The problem with tournament data is that so much of it is based on a snowflake house rule version of the game.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Lemondish wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I think GW thinks they are giving good rules. In spite of all tournament data to the contrary.


The problem with tournament data is that so much of it is based on a snowflake house rule version of the game.


also torunies aren't won by factions withg good rules. they're won by factions with BROKEN rules.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Dakka Veteran





some day when all old marines are replaced by primaris, chaos will be the only faction to feature old marines. Then Chaos players can whine all they want about having weaker marines...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 01:50:41


In the Grimdark future of DerpHammer40k, there are only dank memes! 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






BrianDavion wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I think GW thinks they are giving good rules. In spite of all tournament data to the contrary.


The problem with tournament data is that so much of it is based on a snowflake house rule version of the game.


also torunies aren't won by factions withg good rules. they're won by factions with BROKEN rules.

Tornies are won by lots of army types. Just not marines or crons or nids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CadianGateTroll wrote:
some day when all old marines are replaced by primaris, chaos will be the only faction to feature old marines. Then Chaos players can whine all they want about having weaker marines...

Choas marines have the ability to be a lot better than tactical marines. Not due to their statline though - that is bad. They have lots of spell support and stratagem support. They are just better used on other units.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/16 02:01:46


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Lemondish wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I think GW thinks they are giving good rules. In spite of all tournament data to the contrary.


The problem with tournament data is that so much of it is based on a snowflake house rule version of the game.


Its close enough. Marines dont magically get good outside tournaments. Drukhari destroy primaris no matter the setting.

I still think itc helps marines, too. More los blocking and downsides for hordes.

Please use more appropriate analogies consistent with the pg13 rules of dakka - ingtaer.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/16 03:49:32


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Hellebore wrote:
Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".


Why didn't they keep the 2D6 save for Terminators *sob*.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
It's not just inaccuracy. That would be tolerable if they weren't the MOST inaccurate faction over and over.


It is odd how I think only Epic Armageddon managed to do Marines correctly (small highly mobile forces able to fight foes far more numerous than themselves with integrated air and orbital assets - I still love teleporting the terminators in, extracting them by Thunderhawk, then having them air assault elsewhere on the table) and they haven't matched in pretty much any other setting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 11:53:29


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





2D6 saves are a real hassle to actually play.

Instead of being able to roll a few saves at once, you have to resolve each hit individually.

Even in the more modest army sizes in 2nd edition, it was too much.

hello 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





i don't think marines are the only 'inaccurately portrayed' force, they've just had so much power fantasy championing over the decades that they're the loudest.

The eldar are meant to be so fast you can't hit them - they replace heavy protective armour for just not being there.

Not since 2nd ed when a 10" running eldar was -1 to hit did you get anything like that.

They're meant to perfect skills no human (marine or otherwise) could ever achieve. Their mind's are smarter, clearer and more capable of perfection than any other species - slannesh is an example of what happens when a potent mind like that turns its sense of perfection to something a little bit bad....

We never got movie eldar, but they'd all be WS 1+, BS 1+, with 2+ invulnerable saves, Move 10" and ignore cover, and always did lethally accurate strikes at joints etc as they bent bullets, backflipped over stuff and basically acted like the immortal space elf perfectionist ninjas they are (see, I can hyperbolise them just like marines).




   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






The_Real_Chris wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".


Why didn't they keep the 2D6 save for Terminators *sob*.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
It's not just inaccuracy. That would be tolerable if they weren't the MOST inaccurate faction over and over.


It is odd how I think only Epic Armageddon managed to do Marines correctly (small highly mobile forces able to fight foes far more numerous than themselves with integrated air and orbital assets - I still love teleporting the terminators in, extracting them by Thunderhawk, then having them air assault elsewhere on the table) and they haven't matched in pretty much any other setting.


Imagine my ork boys charge a unit of terminators. 30 boys get the charge off (29 + nob) 4*29 attacks 116 hitting on 3's. ~76 hits ~38 wounds... ok now roll 38 saves on 2d6 while I go grab a soda hit the restroom, and read a couple of novels. would slow the game by a ridiculous amount

Also there is the fact that if they had a 3+ on 2d6 it would mean all that rolling for ~1-2 wounds. so you would have to basically triple the cost of terminators for thier newfound neigh invunerability to most small arms and assaults (yes I know in the fluff that is what terminator armor does, but there are balance mechanics to be considered in a game. Want movie marines? fine just be prepared to eb fielding 10 models.

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Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





 Daba wrote:
2D6 saves are a real hassle to actually play.

Instead of being able to roll a few saves at once, you have to resolve each hit individually.

Even in the more modest army sizes in 2nd edition, it was too much.


Having played 2nd Edition, with the more modest army sizes of 2nd Edition, no it wasn't too much. Individually deviating each and every assault marine by D3 inches and a scatter dice was too much.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Daba wrote:
2D6 saves are a real hassle to actually play.

Instead of being able to roll a few saves at once, you have to resolve each hit individually.

Even in the more modest army sizes in 2nd edition, it was too much.


You can use roygbiv coded dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hellebore wrote:
i don't think marines are the only 'inaccurately portrayed' force, they've just had so much power fantasy championing over the decades that they're the loudest.

The eldar are meant to be so fast you can't hit them - they replace heavy protective armour for just not being there.

Not since 2nd ed when a 10" running eldar was -1 to hit did you get anything like that.

They're meant to perfect skills no human (marine or otherwise) could ever achieve. Their mind's are smarter, clearer and more capable of perfection than any other species - slannesh is an example of what happens when a potent mind like that turns its sense of perfection to something a little bit bad....

We never got movie eldar, but they'd all be WS 1+, BS 1+, with 2+ invulnerable saves, Move 10" and ignore cover, and always did lethally accurate strikes at joints etc as they bent bullets, backflipped over stuff and basically acted like the immortal space elf perfectionist ninjas they are (see, I can hyperbolise them just like marines).





They still have far more rules to represent that stuff than marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 12:27:34


 
   
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Terminator Armour should be 2+ on a D12
   
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Martel732 wrote:

You can use roygbiv coded dice.



You can also roll 38 dice the first time, and only reroll the ones low enough to fail - for example, if you need a 3+ you only have to reroll the 1's. Then any 1's you re-roll are wounds. If you need a 4+ because of a -1, you reroll the 2's first and any 1's are wounds. then reroll the 1's and any 1's or 2's are wounds.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The problem was back in the day AP of -3 to -6 were running around. And terminators were SO expensive, well, you can do the math.

I'll never forget my first run-in with a manbaby who lost his gak after losing 15 terminators in one turn to Eldar. I gotta be honest, terminators are actually better now I think.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 12:46:22


 
   
Made in nz
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot



New Zealand

Sometimes I think that Space Marine players forget that a game is supposed to be a fair fight (50/50 win chance). But for Space Marines to fight like they do in the background it would be so unfair on the other player. Space Marines would pick the battlefield; pick the size of the opposition; pick where and how to deploy (for both sides) etc. To show how Space Marines prefer to fight doesn't fit a standard 40k very well.
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






Tygre wrote:
Sometimes I think that Space Marine players forget that a game is supposed to be a fair fight (50/50 win chance). But for Space Marines to fight like they do in the background it would be so unfair on the other player. Space Marines would pick the battlefield; pick the size of the opposition; pick where and how to deploy (for both sides) etc. To show how Space Marines prefer to fight doesn't fit a standard 40k very well.


yea, some people want movie marines and they want them to cost 2 point per model while having overpowered guardsman and fire warriors cost 25 points per model. also thier marines should be M 12" S 16 T16 L1000 W20 A35 Save 2+ on 36 D6 at that 2 points per model. firewarriors and guard though need to keep current profiles at that 25 points and even then they will complain thatt hey lost a single wound on a single marine because in the books they should not have lost that single wound tabling the opponent at the end of turn 1

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Nothing is as badly represented as the Eldar Exarchs, that no one, not even GW remember what they are anymore.

hello 
   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






 G00fySmiley wrote:
Tygre wrote:
Sometimes I think that Space Marine players forget that a game is supposed to be a fair fight (50/50 win chance). But for Space Marines to fight like they do in the background it would be so unfair on the other player. Space Marines would pick the battlefield; pick the size of the opposition; pick where and how to deploy (for both sides) etc. To show how Space Marines prefer to fight doesn't fit a standard 40k very well.


yea, some people want movie marines and they want them to cost 2 point per model while having overpowered guardsman and fire warriors cost 25 points per model. also thier marines should be M 12" S 16 T16 L1000 W20 A35 Save 2+ on 36 D6 at that 2 points per model. firewarriors and guard though need to keep current profiles at that 25 points and even then they will complain thatt hey lost a single wound on a single marine because in the books they should not have lost that single wound tabling the opponent at the end of turn 1


Marines die all the time in the books...

People asking for crazy buffs are fringe wackaloons. Marines just need simple tweaks like atsknf just needs to be roll 2 take the lowest, and a couple point changes or we stop this race to the bottom Nonsense
   
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Tygre wrote:
Sometimes I think that Space Marine players forget that a game is supposed to be a fair fight (50/50 win chance). But for Space Marines to fight like they do in the background it would be so unfair on the other player. Space Marines would pick the battlefield; pick the size of the opposition; pick where and how to deploy (for both sides) etc. To show how Space Marines prefer to fight doesn't fit a standard 40k very well.


We are so far from this i dont understand why it keeps being brought up. Marines aren't even close to 50/50. So yes, it should be 50/50.

Theres no guarantee marines would do any of that regardless of the fluff.
   
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A Marine could easily beat 10 Guardsmen in the books.

A single Guardsman can just flip a switch on their gun and oneshot a Marine in the books.

How can you write rules to conform to both those fluff bits?
   
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You don't. Just do a better job than marines being little bitches. Which they are.
   
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I think you justify the fluff through the stats. Guard are statistically inferior to Space Marines.

The issue is the D6 system. It inherently throws the fluff out the window by making the guardman way more powerful than he should be.

   
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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you justify the fluff through the stats. Guard are statistically inferior to Space Marines.

The issue is the D6 system. It inherently throws the fluff out the window by making the guardman way more powerful than he should be.



So why not just charge the appropriate points while acknowledging this problem?
   
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Martel732 wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you justify the fluff through the stats. Guard are statistically inferior to Space Marines.

The issue is the D6 system. It inherently throws the fluff out the window by making the guardman way more powerful than he should be.



So why not just charge the appropriate points while acknowledging this problem?


Ideally that is what should happen. Guardsman need to go up a point and space marines need to go down several. When will GW do this though/will they... idk. Personally i would liek to see 11 point marines to start with and adjust down if they are still performing poorly.

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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Terminator Armour should be 2+ on a D12
Alternatively we give them +1W and allow their armour to reroll 1s.
As much as a d12 system would give us more options, they aren't as cheap as d6s, especially in the quantities we'd need them in 40K

And extra wounds would absolutely go a long way towards making Marines as a whole more viable/play like superhuman walking tanks.
IMO, just about all non-Primaris, non-Character Marine (and Chaos Marine) Infantry and Bikes should be +1W across the board. There's enough D2+ weapons out there that this would hardly affect the meta, aside from making them more resilient to small arms fire.
Primaris units (and Terminators) can get a rule that allows them to reroll 1s for Armour saves to represent their superior armour.

No d12s needed.

-

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/16 14:48:07


   
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D12s would still be a boon in many, many ways. Especially in a system where 1's autofail, there are only 5 meaningful results on each die roll. We could use die roll modifiers and ditch rerolls.

The "expense" of D12s is meaningless in a game with 100 dollar executioner kits. Come on. I play most of my games with 12 dice.

Forget superman. Forget walking tanks. We need to get to NOT VICTIMS first.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 14:54:15


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

If you want a debate on what marines should be...

They should be fundamentally a difficult force to use, but devastating when done correctly. For example able to move relatively rapidly compared to other armies but at the same time able to focus fire while manoeuvring into small target areas, but be vulnerable to being overwhelmed if not kept mobile. On defence you would expect them to be able to hold a key area - a mountain pass for example - but again be overwhelmed if they try to hold a wide area like a guard army.

Problem with that is the 40k rules system is that is very hard to do in an accessible way for what is the most popular army.

So it becomes the beginners army which simply cannot be expected to perform in that way.

It was certainly a surprise in Epic A when all those with marine armies suddenly found them very difficult to use!
   
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But it's not a beginners army at all in practice. It IS hard to use for the wrong reasons.
   
 
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