Are Oldmarines getting mothballed?

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**Insectum7**

Klickor wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
Silver144 wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

А1 attack marine was ok because of sweeping advance.
W1 marine was ok because there was no multiwound weapons and RoF in the game was like 2x less than we have today.

It's not classic statline sucks, it's poor conversion to 8ed.

The movie marines were released in 4th edition because people didn't think the statline represented their effectiveness.

They still died from one shot from a lasgun. They weren't considered effective enough even back then.

Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".

Arguments over Marines not being accurately represented in the game is as old as the game itself.

They were still more like the fluff than they are now though which I guess is his point. If you only needed to win combat by 1 to defeat a huge unit and wipe it you only need to do slightly more damage than you recieve and that was often the sarges job with PF. Which means 1 A on normal marines were OK since you didnt actually have to use that stat to win melee on itself.

Same with surviving. With way less shots a 3+ save that worked on almost everything could protect good enough even with 1 wound especially since most marines squad mainly relied on 3-4 models of the 10 doing all the work in breaking units or destroying tanks/monsters.

Even if they were flimsy compared to the background even back then they were still better represented on the tabletop. Not perhaps in the actual stat lines but in how the core rules worked around what marines had. Now they have the same stat line but everything else has changed so now it isn't well represented in the stat line, rules or how they interact with each other. A tact squad could with rather good odds actually one shot kill almost any vehicle except a monolith if they just got close enough. They can't even do that to a rhino now even though back then 3 Leman Russes close together were in deep danger if 10 naked marines got close. Same marines now as then just the rules surrounding them that changed.

So true. ATKNF was an amazing ability, and every model being able to attack vehicles in cc with Krak grenades felt so good. Marines played like exceedingly capable troops when played well.

Primaris with their 2w, 2A and all Bolters feel like the "hur-dur" 10-year-old interpretation of marines.

**Captain Brown**

Even if they are at some point, the three Marine players in my gaming group have all resisted buying anything Primus.

CB

**Martel732**

The core rules certainly favor hordes even more now, but i would only characterize marines as capable in 3rd and 4th.

**Mr Morden**

Captain Brown wrote:
Even if they are at some point, the three Marine players in my gaming group have all resisted buying anything Primus.

CB

Well problem for GW is there is not really anything left to make for Marines - unlike most ranges they have everything in their range - usually mutliples of the same unit....

unless we want more crap like Centurions......

Or for units that are not in the oh so special Chapters.

**Insectum7**

Or just pump the scale and re-release all the old stuff again, which has apparently been working for decades.

**Xenomancers**

Nothing wrong with cents...some people just don't want to buy new models. GW gives doesn't give 2 craps about people who don't want to buy new models. They barely care about the ones that do.

**Klickor**

Martel732 wrote:
Mephy is a lot better since he just can't be picked out and shot. 5th ed mephy couldn't even join squads.

I used rhinos in my BA lists so could always use those to screen with if the terrain wasnt enough. Was harder to get los than today and no knights to tower over everything so the few ap 1-2 shots the enemy had was quite easy to avoid. Only lascannons and harder could pierce his 2+ save and even if they did he only took 1 wound and had FNP on T6!! And no moving and shooting with heavy weapons on infantry. I feel he is harder to screen from shooting today than back then if I want to get good use of him. He was a monstrous creature 28mm high that had cheap and fast moving LOS blockers in the same codex. Think how brutal an avatar of khaine or a hive tyrant would be if they were the same tiny size.

**The Newman**

Mr Morden wrote:
Captain Brown wrote:
Even if they are at some point, the three Marine players in my gaming group have all resisted buying anything Primus.

CB

Well problem for GW is there is not really anything left to make for Marines - unlike most ranges they have everything in their range - usually mutliples of the same unit....

unless we want more crap like Centurions......

Or for units that are not in the oh so special Chapters.

I want more Centurions. There are Assault and Devastator versions, I would totally buy another box of them if GW released Tactical Centurions. Hurricane Bolter + 2x Stormbolters, with the option to swap Stormbolters for Combi-weapons and/or Storm Shields? Yes please. I would also totally buy a Captain and/or Librarian in Centurion armor.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Considering the NUMarines don't have a single lick of anti-tank weaponry for infantry, I'd say not just yet. Until they release something that can reliably counter vehicles in a infantry squad, such as melta or las cannons, you won't see them stop selling.

Also, until people stop buying them, you won't see them stop selling them. Until they get squatted, which is to say completely removed from the "universe". There are not good rule sheets for squats, so you cannot play them in competitive 8th ed games.

I don't see them squatting their Gold Standard in Marines for at least another few years.

**fraser1191**

Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

**Xenomancers**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We don't know what they will do. They will likely be like str 7 ap-3 D3 heavy with sniper rule. They will be expensive.

**The Newman**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.

**Carnage43**

The Newman wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.

That depends entirely on the points cost of course. At 250 points for 5 dudes with them? No. At 150, maybe?

**Xenomancers**

The Newman wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.

If you can take them in 6 mans they will be incredible if that is the case. However I think it's much more likely it will be a heavy sniper rifle. 6 Lascannons with the ability to not be targetable via phobos libi? What is this? An actual good combo?

**Ice_can**

The issue is as has been pointed to in this thread 8th edition core mechanics rewards quantity over quality.

Primaris is an incomplete line with glaring holes that need filled.

Primaris points costs have looked like they were pulled from someones back pocket without any though as to balance

Old marines having been left out to dry has left marine unit costs looking blatantly broken.

Loosing access to so many charictor models and alternative equipment in specialist kits would render marines as pure Primaris as an even lower tier army than they already are.

It's coming but I also suspect that a number of people will never pkay marines again after this even if GW does make them the poster OP downright broken army for 9th or 10th edition.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.
If you can take them in 6 mans they will be incredible if that is the case. However I think it's much more likely it will be a heavy sniper rifle. 6 Lascannons with the ability to not be targetable via phobos libi? What is this? An actual good combo?

That's not a good combo that's stupid broken rules design.
Welcome to the new invisibility.

**Xenomancers**

DR already do this though. In squads of 9 for the cost of CP instead of needing spells. Granted this combo has potential to be even better than that. It is also likely more expensive and not automatic (stratagems are automatic) Seems totally within the realm of reason compared to what other armies can do.

Heck - Hivegaurd can do this effectively and shoot twice without 0 support. Don't see hive guard dominating too much these days.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

A one shot 36" mini-las? On an overpriced pointless squad? No thanks. Say hello to the most pointless units.

If your anti-tank costs just as much as, and it statistically similar to the tank, it is for all intents and purposes a tank.

6 Eliminators, thats 12-13 wounds. Each one has a gun. It's about 350pts. Congrats you just built the Exectutioner, and that has fly, doesn't loose BS due to movement, and is just all around better investment.

**Xenomancers**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A one shot 36" mini-las? On an overpriced pointless squad? No thanks. Say hello to the most pointless units.

If your anti-tank costs just as much as, and it statistically similar to the tank, it is for all intents and purposes a tank.

6 Eliminators, thats 12-13 wounds. Each one has a gun. It's about 350pts. Congrats you just built the Exectutioner, and that has fly, doesn't loose BS due to movement, and is just all around better investment.

Ehh - it likely will be 45ish points per model.

It will offer a few advantages over an executioner. Not vulnerable to being 1 shot by volcano lance. 1+ save in cover so AP-1 very ineffective against them. Ancient banner allows to shoot when you die. Has 13 WS3+ str 4 attacks and access to chapter tactics. Synergy with phobo libi. IMO they would be auto include for at least 1 Squad of 6. Also they might even have infiltration ability still - another huge advantage.

**Ice_can**

Xenomancers wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A one shot 36" mini-las? On an overpriced pointless squad? No thanks. Say hello to the most pointless units.

If your anti-tank costs just as much as, and it statistically similar to the tank, it is for all intents and purposes a tank.

6 Eliminators, thats 12-13 wounds. Each one has a gun. It's about 350pts. Congrats you just built the Exectutioner, and that has fly, doesn't loose BS due to movement, and is just all around better investment.

Ehh - it likely will be 45ish points per model.

It will offer a few advantages over an executioner. Not vulnerable to being 1 shot by volcano lance. 1+ save in cover so AP-1 very ineffective against them. Ancient banner allows to shoot when you die. Has 13 WS3+ str 4 attacks and access to chapter tactics. Synergy with phobo libi. IMO they would be auto include for at least 1 Squad of 6.

I agree but this, it is also one of my fundamental issues with primaris marines. They are the one way to play or they just suck arm.
They are a weird buff upon buff upon buff mechanic stacking army why flys in the face of 20 years of fluff that marines shouldn't be 1 massive blob surrounding the HQ's.

**Martel732**

The aura thing is the worst thing ever, agreed.

**Lemondish**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

That's a lastalon.

Las fusils are new.

**Xenomancers**

Ice_can wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A one shot 36" mini-las? On an overpriced pointless squad? No thanks. Say hello to the most pointless units.

If your anti-tank costs just as much as, and it statistically similar to the tank, it is for all intents and purposes a tank.

6 Eliminators, thats 12-13 wounds. Each one has a gun. It's about 350pts. Congrats you just built the Exectutioner, and that has fly, doesn't loose BS due to movement, and is just all around better investment.

Ehh - it likely will be 45ish points per model.

It will offer a few advantages over an executioner. Not vulnerable to being 1 shot by volcano lance. 1+ save in cover so AP-1 very ineffective against them. Ancient banner allows to shoot when you die. Has 13 WS3+ str 4 attacks and access to chapter tactics. Synergy with phobo libi. IMO they would be auto include for at least 1 Squad of 6.

I agree but this, it is also one of my fundamental issues with primaris marines. They are the one way to play or they just suck arm.
They are a weird buff upon buff upon buff mechanic stacking army why flys in the face of 20 years of fluff that marines shouldn't be 1 massive blob surrounding the HQ's.

If marines are going to be costed like they are in auras (they are). Their auras should be table wide. Then they don't have to hide in bubbles.

Seriously - are marines losing games right now because they can't spread out? or are they losing games because they are made of glass?

**Martel732**

Both. These problems are hard to disentangle.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

You can't make aura's board wide, it would break the game. But I agree they need to increase the range.

I would love to camp a Chapter master and a Chaplain in my backfield and give my entire army full re-rolls, but that is silly.

I think if you made them give +s to things board wide, that would make sense.

Got a Chaplain on the field? All units get +1 attack. Got a Chapter Master? All units get +1 to Wounding. Captains give +1 to Shooting. To get all three would be about 350 points.

I would give SGTs the ability to give +2 to morale.

And Libby's get psychic powers, so they don't get an Aura. Lt's get nothing, they are just a cheap HQ slot, so drop their points.

**The Newman**

Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.
If you can take them in 6 mans they will be incredible if that is the case. However I think it's much more likely it will be a heavy sniper rifle. 6 Lascannons with the ability to not be targetable via phobos libi? What is this? An actual good combo?

As of right now Eliminators only come in a unit of three. That might change, but I half suspect that if Eliminators and Suppressors were going to be able to go up to 6 man units GW would have set their original data sheets that way to sell more of the initial boxed set.

Also, the combo with the Phobos Libby suggests strongly that they'll stay a 3-man unit. GW doesn't seem to want to give Marines good rules for some reason.

**Martel732**

I think GW thinks they are giving good rules. In spite of all tournament data to the contrary.

**BrianDavion**

The Newman wrote:

As of right now Eliminators only come in a unit of three. That might change, but I half suspect that if Eliminators and Suppressors were going to be able to go up to 6 man units GW would have set their original data sheets that way to sell more of the initial boxed set.

.

GW doesn't operate like that, Inceptors where listed as 3 man squads in dark Imperium, come the codex, they where able to be taken in 6 man squads. Agressors are likewise a 3 man squad that can be upped to 6 man. centurions another 3 man base squad can be 6. there's no reason to assume you won't be able to go with bigger squads given the precident.

**fraser1191**

Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.
If you can take them in 6 mans they will be incredible if that is the case. However I think it's much more likely it will be a heavy sniper rifle. 6 Lascannons with the ability to not be targetable via phobos libi? What is this? An actual good combo?

I'm actually half expecting these guys to have Arquebus' (arquebi?) somewhere in the realm of being able to kill HQs above T5 and light vehicle hunting. Which I'd be all for since I rarely have trouble with HQs with T3

**Xenomancers**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You can't make aura's board wide, it would break the game. But I agree they need to increase the range.

I would love to camp a Chapter master and a Chaplain in my backfield and give my entire army full re-rolls, but that is silly.

I think if you made them give +s to things board wide, that would make sense.

Got a Chaplain on the field? All units get +1 attack. Got a Chapter Master? All units get +1 to Wounding. Captains give +1 to Shooting. To get all three would be about 350 points.

I would give SGTs the ability to give +2 to morale.

And Libby's get psychic powers, so they don't get an Aura. Lt's get nothing, they are just a cheap HQ slot, so drop their points.

I agree it sounds silly BUT the army can't win in a bubble and they can't really win if you spread out ether - though we sure do try. Gman is also is 400 fething points. Sure he makes a lot of units have phenominal damage output. 1/5 of your whole competitive army. Perhaps at that cost he should have a 12" aura at least. Cause he MUST be buffing most of your army for you to have a chance

Automatically Appended Next Post:

fraser1191 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.
If you can take them in 6 mans they will be incredible if that is the case. However I think it's much more likely it will be a heavy sniper rifle. 6 Lascannons with the ability to not be targetable via phobos libi? What is this? An actual good combo?

I'm actually half expecting these guys to have Arquebus' (arquebi?) somewhere in the realm of being able to kill HQs above T5 and light vehicle hunting. Which I'd be all for since I rarely have trouble with HQs with T3

I agree. I think it will be an arquebus equivalent. Possible with better AP. Straight up better than the Eliminators rifle vs most things BUT it doesn't have the versatility. 90% of the time I am using the +2 to hit ignore LOS round for the eliminators because I can move and shoot it and hit on 2's. Mainly including them so I can kill tau drones and DR and the like.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.
If you can take them in 6 mans they will be incredible if that is the case. However I think it's much more likely it will be a heavy sniper rifle. 6 Lascannons with the ability to not be targetable via phobos libi? What is this? An actual good combo?

As of right now Eliminators only come in a unit of three. That might change, but I half suspect that if Eliminators and Suppressors were going to be able to go up to 6 man units GW would have set their original data sheets that way to sell more of the initial boxed set.

Also, the combo with the Phobos Libby suggests strongly that they'll stay a 3-man unit. GW doesn't seem to want to give Marines good rules for some reason.

I have a strong feeling they will be allowed in units of 6. Right now they are okay in 3 man units but at 6 man they have potential to be competitive units.