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Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

Good. Get started. The sooner you abandon this sinking ship you hate the sooner you will feel so much more positive.

Nah, I hate the IG at this point. I feel dirty even souping them in.

 Ishagu wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Crazy xenos idea: GW can split classic marines and primaris in 2 books while creating new lore about schism within the empire and putting 2 loyal Primarches (one leading primaris, one leading old marines) against each other. Civil war insues and grimdark intensifies. Old marines get new kits similar to Chaos Marines - more proportional and prettier, maybe with some Heresy era designs; Primaris also get more modern tacticool kits.

Both sides of the marine fanbase are put against each other in confrontation on which codex is better while buying more things and used to make more money for GW simultaneously.

Pretty boring. That's just diet Horus Heresy. You've got a whole game built around Astartes v Astartes if you want more of that.

I'd rather they focus on writing good rules for Primaris and expanding the range as quickly as possible. They can keep regular Astartes as index units.
More Primarchs should return as well.

Agreed, except on more Primarchs - I'm not really fussed about that.

I think the whole "let's have an Imperial Civil War" is a lazy narrative, personally. The Imperium already IS threatened, it already is weak. It's only thanks to the Primaris and Guilliman that it's not collapsed. Personally, I don't see any Primarchs realistically opposing Guilliman of causing a Civil War, barring the Lion, and ONLY if Guilliman blamed him for the Fallen stuff (which Guilliman wouldn't do in this situation).

There's too much at stake in-universe for a civil war, so I don't think any Primarchs would do anything. At this point as well, no humans can really oppose Guilliman directly in a military manner, due to his status and explicit support from the Emperor and Custodes.

I think this is all fine. The Imperium still sucks. Everything's still "grimdark". The fact that there's simply more going on now narratively opposed to a few years ago is much better for narrative players.

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

Good. Get started. The sooner you abandon this sinking ship you hate the sooner you will feel so much more positive.

Nah, I hate the IG at this point. I feel dirty even souping them in.

What army don't you hate at this point?

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

Good. Get started. The sooner you abandon this sinking ship you hate the sooner you will feel so much more positive.

Nah, I hate the IG at this point. I feel dirty even souping them in.

No one cares what you like or don't like. You have a one note, negative and non-constructive opinion. I don't think I've seen a response from you that wasn't a complaint to or dislike of something.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:

How many Primaris Lieutenants are we up to now?

Zero vanilla lieutenants you could buy separately.

It takes almost zero effort to make a Lieutenant out of a normal marine.

And that's actually part of my problem when it comes to these Primaris HQ units (and, actually, several HQ units in general). This ends up leading to these strict models where you get nothing. The fact that regular Captains even HAVE as many options as they do shocks me.

Why does it bother you so much? Just ignore them.

There is definitely legit criticism. I'm not seeing any from Martel however.

 Ishagu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

Good. Get started. The sooner you abandon this sinking ship you hate the sooner you will feel so much more positive.

Nah, I hate the IG at this point. I feel dirty even souping them in.

No one cares what you like or don't like. You have a one note, negative and non-constructive opinion. I don't think I've seen a response from you that wasn't a complaint to or dislike of something.

Then quit reading my posts like you did with the other guy in the other thread. Or consider me your cosmic balance to your cheerleading of a mediocre product.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

Good. Get started. The sooner you abandon this sinking ship you hate the sooner you will feel so much more positive.

Nah, I hate the IG at this point. I feel dirty even souping them in.

No one cares what you like or don't like. You have a one note, negative and non-constructive opinion.

He isn't incorrect though on the bad balance existing. Your endless defending isn't being a white Knight but it's pretty darn close. Accept there's legit criticism or get off the internet and live in your little bubble where everything is perfect.

"Bad balance existing" isn't the same as "Absolutely the most terrible thing ever". There are more states than "100% good" and "100% bad". The problem is just how extreme Martel is in his claims of the problem. If someone owes me $100, it's not correct to say "he owes me millions of dollars". You could deconstruct down t a technically-true meaning (0.0001 millions of dollars), but it should certainly be called out as incorrect.

There's also context. Responding to every discussion with "IG are OP" isn't any more correct than responding to "How are you today" with "Columbus sailed the ocean blue". It may be true, but saying it in that context is incorrect.

Spamming nonsense, even when technically true, just drowns out everything else. So posting "IG OP" in every thread *hurts* legit criticism. We don't need pages in every thread complaining about how the favorite faction has bad rules right now. Especially when the complaints add nothing new to the conversation.

Im the most extreme person ever. Let me tell you.

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

Good. Get started. The sooner you abandon this sinking ship you hate the sooner you will feel so much more positive.

Nah, I hate the IG at this point. I feel dirty even souping them in.

No one cares what you like or don't like. You have a one note, negative and non-constructive opinion.

He isn't incorrect though on the bad balance existing. Your endless defending isn't being a white Knight but it's pretty darn close. Accept there's legit criticism or get off the internet and live in your little bubble where everything is perfect.

"Bad balance existing" isn't the same as "Absolutely the most terrible thing ever". There are more states than "100% good" and "100% bad". The problem is just how extreme Martel is in his claims of the problem. If someone owes me $100, it's not correct to say "he owes me millions of dollars". You could deconstruct down t a technically-true meaning (0.0001 millions of dollars), but it should certainly be called out as incorrect.

There's also context. Responding to every discussion with "IG are OP" isn't any more correct than responding to "How are you today" with "Columbus sailed the ocean blue". It may be true, but saying it in that context is incorrect.

Spamming nonsense, even when technically true, just drowns out everything else. So posting "IG OP" in every thread *hurts* legit criticism. We don't need pages in every thread complaining about how the favorite faction has bad rules right now. Especially when the complaints add nothing new to the conversation.

Agree. I do think marines are badly balanced and catachan shows it very clearly. But I do think everyone gets it already. And like you said Martel just responds with a one liner about how bad marines are without any real discussion about how or what could be done to fix it. Every time I see his name I know he will point out how much "x marine" suck. I do enjoy some marine bashing but I like some more meat on it

The math has been posted ad nauseum.

Martel732 wrote:
The math has been posted ad nauseum.

Pointing out the math has been posted ad nauseum has been posted ad nauseum.

See how reductive and unuseful such posts are?

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

Good. Get started. The sooner you abandon this sinking ship you hate the sooner you will feel so much more positive.

Nah, I hate the IG at this point. I feel dirty even souping them in.

No one cares what you like or don't like. You have a one note, negative and non-constructive opinion.

He isn't incorrect though on the bad balance existing. Your endless defending isn't being a white Knight but it's pretty darn close. Accept there's legit criticism or get off the internet and live in your little bubble where everything is perfect.

"Bad balance existing" isn't the same as "Absolutely the most terrible thing ever". There are more states than "100% good" and "100% bad". The problem is just how extreme Martel is in his claims of the problem. If someone owes me $100, it's not correct to say "he owes me millions of dollars". You could deconstruct down t a technically-true meaning (0.0001 millions of dollars), but it should certainly be called out as incorrect.

There's also context. Responding to every discussion with "IG are OP" isn't any more correct than responding to "How are you today" with "Columbus sailed the ocean blue". It may be true, but saying it in that context is incorrect.

Spamming nonsense, even when technically true, just drowns out everything else. So posting "IG OP" in every thread *hurts* legit criticism. We don't need pages in every thread complaining about how the favorite faction has bad rules right now. Especially when the complaints add nothing new to the conversation.

Oh I don't disagree Martel can be a one-track mind. However, keep in mind the other poster is just being Positive Paula.

Bharring wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The math has been posted ad nauseum.

Pointing out the math has been posted ad nauseum has been posted ad nauseum.

See how reductive and unuseful such posts are?

Not really. I'm not typing it out again. I'm clarifying that this point has been addressed and those that accept it have accepted it and those that explain it away have explained it away.

.. There's both a topic and a way we expect people to behave.

My dream is that, instead of squatting RealMarines, they instead squash the rules. Basic Tac squads represent Tactical Marines and Intercessors, with all the options for both. Same profile.

This'd probably leave the base Marine profile at W2 A2. Not a fan of all Bolt weapons going to Ap-1, but it wouldn't be the worst thing GW has done.

This way, people who love the DOW3 asethetic and design can have their MarinesButBetterMoarDakka squads, and I can have my MarinesWithTacticalLoadouts. Everybody wins.

Pretty sure they want to sell their new primaris kits.

Bharring wrote:

This way, people who love the DOW3 asethetic and design can have their MarinesButBetterMoarDakka squads, and I can have my MarinesWithTacticalLoadouts. Everybody wins.

Did anybody love the DOW3 aesthetic?

GW remade the Marine line using it, it seems. So someone does.

Bharring wrote:
GW remade the Marine line using it, it seems. So someone does.

I didn't pay much attention to DoW3. Which aesthetics in particular are borrowed if you don't mind me asking?

When you give Plasma to a Marine squad, everyone gets plasma! Because Moar Dakka.

Marines are bigger therefore better. And bigger marines are betterer. They can backflip in termie armor. Because bigga is bettah.

I remember when I was all fantasy 20 years and was not interested in 40K at all. How things have changed. Honesty, I like my old marines from when I got them in the 5th better that what is out there now for tac. marines. I use a few of the new squads as full squads of Sternguard.

I have thought of collecting the old metal ones, and perhaps I may start that up. Either way if GW decides to discontinue the army, than I am either doing oldhammer with my old armies, or doing something else with them. Just like on the Fantasy side of the house, I will slowly cease to become a customer of them.

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

Good. Get started. The sooner you abandon this sinking ship you hate the sooner you will feel so much more positive.

Nah, I hate the IG at this point. I feel dirty even souping them in.

Then you have zero reasons to complain the way you do.

Martel732 wrote:
The problem was back in the day AP of -3 to -6 were running around. And terminators were SO expensive, well, you can do the math.

I'll never forget my first run-in with a manbaby who lost his gak after losing 15 terminators in one turn to Eldar. I gotta be honest, terminators are actually better now I think.

Yes... they're so much better now on a 2+ with so much -3 running around and being so much cheaper than a Tactical marine.... A 3+ -6 is 9+ out of 12(actually 11 because you can't roll a 1) - or 36% safe rolls . a 2+ -3 is a 5+ or 33% safe rolls. The roughly 30 point Tactical Marine is now roughly 15 points. The roughly 65 point terminator is now roughly 35 points. So they cost relatively more, and save relatively less. But they're in a much better place than they were.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tygre wrote:
Sometimes I think that Space Marine players forget that a game is supposed to be a fair fight (50/50 win chance). But for Space Marines to fight like they do in the background it would be so unfair on the other player. Space Marines would pick the battlefield; pick the size of the opposition; pick where and how to deploy (for both sides) etc. To show how Space Marines prefer to fight doesn't fit a standard 40k very well.

I think it's a dice have no memory thing. When the first lasgun takes out your marine, that sticks in your mind more than when the first ten ping off a shoulder plate - this is combined with some more-than-basic-but-less-than-complex math problems. There are any number of rules/math issues that resolve in favor of the horde army over the elite army. The Loyal 32 - and the reason for taking them CP Generation to feed the army you enjoy vs the army you need- is one example - IG get 5CP for 180 points out of a 1500 point list, SM have to spend SM have to spend closer to 600 before they get to move into the theme they want. Objective Securing counting models over points, or power level, or something else that should theoretically be uniform across army types is another. A third is the game difference between 75 points of 5+ vs 175 points of 3+ on a 6 sided die isn't big enough for 100 points.

I was speaking to my local store manager yesterday, before laying the eldar smack down on some dark angels, according to him the old school marines are still one of his best sellers.
Of course one local gw store is nothing more than anecdotal but I suspect that it's a fairly common situation.

kingheff wrote:
I was speaking to my local store manager yesterday, before laying the eldar smack down on some dark angels, according to him the old school marines are still one of his best sellers.
Of course one local gw store is nothing more than anecdotal but I suspect that it's a fairly common situation.

I belive it, especially as most marine armies likely consist of something like 2 squads of intercessors a scout squad, a captain with jump pack, 2 predators a contemptor dread, and a stormraven (just for example) in short I'd be willing to bet most armies are mixed armies.

BrianDavion wrote:


I belive it, especially as most marine armies likely consist of something like 2 squads of intercessors a scout squad, a captain with jump pack, 2 predators a contemptor dread, and a stormraven (just for example) in short I'd be willing to bet most armies are mixed armies.

I'd make that bet too. The Primaris line isn't complete enough yet, so they'll get their Primaris where they can, and fill in with 1.0 Marines. Most of my lists are mixed as well as I work out what I used to use vs the new stuff and which I like better going forwards. As soon as Eliminitaors get their kit, and 3 + and optional 3 more rule for one Force Org Slot (I'm assuming they'll get an expand to 6 squad size when their full kit and datasheet come out) , I'll try running some of them vs Sniper Scouts. In other ways, I use the old marines when there isn't an Primaris equivalent - Predators, Techmarines, Thunderfire Cannon - Jump Pack lieutenants and the like.

Silver144 wrote:
Dorn/Russ/Lion returns and now we have primaris against not primaris cold war? Count me in.

Anything that gives us more reasons to have faction vs. faction (especially Imperial vs. Imperial) I'm all for.

In a way, I wish Cawl would be declared a Heretek and take off with half the Admech clans.

Then, Guilliman embraces progress and champions the Primaris, ditching the oldmarines.

However, Dorn/Lion returns and makes the case that the oldmarines are the Emperor's chosen, and pushes for the elimination of "wanna-be Warmaster Guilliman and his abominations"

Russ then returns, gives Guilliman (and the Lion) the finger and openly rebels with the wolves and wolfen.

Then Creed throws his gauntlet into the ring and starts stomping rebellious marines (and Admech) on all sides with the guns of the Imperial Guard.

And Knights tell everyone "screw this noise" and bolster their own houses as petty fiefdoms kicking everyone else out of the way.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Agreed, except on more Primarchs - I'm not really fussed about that.

I think the whole "let's have an Imperial Civil War" is a lazy narrative, personally. The Imperium already IS threatened, it already is weak. It's only thanks to the Primaris and Guilliman that it's not collapsed. Personally, I don't see any Primarchs realistically opposing Guilliman of causing a Civil War, barring the Lion, and ONLY if Guilliman blamed him for the Fallen stuff (which Guilliman wouldn't do in this situation).

There's too much at stake in-universe for a civil war, so I don't think any Primarchs would do anything. At this point as well, no humans can really oppose Guilliman directly in a military manner, due to his status and explicit support from the Emperor and Custodes.

I think this is all fine. The Imperium still sucks. Everything's still "grimdark". The fact that there's simply more going on now narratively opposed to a few years ago is much better for narrative players.

More Primarchs should return if for no other reason than so all the books have at least one. The chaos folks aren't going to have to pick one Black Legion primarch for their Death Guard force, and the same Black Legion Primarch for their Khorn force etc. etc. Non UM's shouldn't have to drag Guilliman around just to have a Primarch. They're not going to do the Civil War 2.0, and they're not going to squat Marines. They'll let the players squat Marines by continually making Primaris just a little bit better. I'd also say the Primarchs have to remain an odd number - for the fluff. They need to have a voter who can break ties, and not be less than a primarch. The best choice to return with the Lion is Sanguinius - they already did this with Imperium Secundus. But they won't - both because the already did it, and they don't know what they're going to do with Sanguinius/BA yet anyway. Russ makes a good alternative who doesn't like or dislike either Johnson or Guilliman. They could bring back Vulkhan as a Sanguinius stand-in for the most Humane primarch.