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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you justify the fluff through the stats. Guard are statistically inferior to Space Marines.

The issue is the D6 system. It inherently throws the fluff out the window by making the guardman way more powerful than he should be.

So why not just charge the appropriate points while acknowledging this problem?

Ideally that is what should happen. Guardsman need to go up a point and space marines need to go down several. When will GW do this though/will they... idk. Personally i would liek to see 11 point marines to start with and adjust down if they are still performing poorly.

OK, but, Guardsman cost isn't the issue. They are not at all intrinsically related. Guardsmen are appropriately costed, and Space marines are too high. Guard don't get access to all the golly gee whiz cool kid stuff that SMs do. Then again, who cares, the NuMarines are replacing Oldboys anyway.

I disagree, Guardsman imo are still the best troop in the game mostly because they are ~30% undercosted. the fact that cultists are worse and somehow 5 points per model is mindboggling. fire warriors are slightly than guardsmen, but not 75% better. skittari rangers are only slightly better than guardsmen but also cost 75% more per model.

really I think they are between 5 and 6 point models but think GW should start at 5 and see how that plays out.

 Xenomancers wrote:

It is pretty clear to everyone but Reeice that gaurdsmen are OP. They are closer to 6 points in value than 4 points. The whole scale of cheap troops is messed up. The cheaper the better. They aren't there to kill things. They are there to get you objective holding and cheap command points and get in the way. With guardsmen you just end up getting the best of the best - the cheapest...with the most damage and mobility potential. You really must understand that guardsmen are OP. The more points you put into a single wound model the less return you get on your investment.

At the risk of things going off on a tangent I think the ability to buy 'bare bones' squads like guardsmen does skew points and the game. When you are buying them for bodies, with a negligible damage output, the temptation is just to mass in sufficient numbers to be a problem and then buy useful offensive stuff elsewhere.

If the Squad became say 50 points and included gear like a vox caster and special weapon (sniper rifle, can be replaced with another weapon) they have slightly more utility, become less of a human wave and cost 25% more. As well as make bare bones conscripts look more distinctive.

You could extend this to other cheap bodies options in army lists, making the hordes be a bit more pricy and killing them off more worthwhile.

It's guardsmen or plaguebearers, not sure which. They are box obnoxious and "win" buttons vs marines over 50% of the time.

Martel732 wrote:
It's guardsmen or plaguebearers, not sure which. They are box obnoxious and "win" buttons vs marines over 50% of the time.

I did see some plaguebearers steamroller some poor Deathwatch Monday night...

Martel732 wrote:
It's guardsmen or plaguebearers, not sure which. They are box obnoxious and "win" buttons vs marines over 50% of the time.

assuming you mean poxwalkers here, imo come in behind guardsmen in the undercosted front, they have some interesting mechanics liek fearless, 5+ ignore wounds and the awesome add models for those slain in the fight phase thus allowing you to more easily tripoint enemies. They are 6 ppm a full 50% more than guardsman and cannot fallback and act normally with orders. The issue with guardsmen is just between adding cheap cp and ignoring the penalty for falling back with orders they just offer way to much utility. note both poxwalkers and guardsmen are both very worth it over a standard marine or even a primaris.

BrianDavion wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you justify the fluff through the stats. Guard are statistically inferior to Space Marines.

The issue is the D6 system. It inherently throws the fluff out the window by making the guardman way more powerful than he should be.

So why not just charge the appropriate points while acknowledging this problem?

Ideally that is what should happen. Guardsman need to go up a point and space marines need to go down several. When will GW do this though/will they... idk. Personally i would liek to see 11 point marines to start with and adjust down if they are still performing poorly.

OK, but, Guardsman cost isn't the issue. They are not at all intrinsically related. Guardsmen are appropriately costed, and Space marines are too high. Guard don't get access to all the golly gee whiz cool kid stuff that SMs do. Then again, who cares, the NuMarines are replacing Oldboys anyway.

except guardsmen DO get access to most of the space Marines toys, plasma, melta Lascanons etc. guard get access to all that. no they don't have power armor and boltguns but they have pretty much everything else Marines have, on a cheaper base too. meanwhile Guard have access to chapter tactics for ALL their units not just infantry bikes and dreads. and the roders system, which is a huge force multipler. I have always maintained that there is no legitmate reason for guard to get chapter tactics and orders. Orders should be stratigiums, costing command points. because as it stands every other army in the game to issue special orders to a unit to increase it's effectiveness has to spend command points, guard can do that "just cause"

I disagree with your assessment of the guard orders and strats. Guard orders work on a 4+ roll. Strategems always work if you pay the cost. I can still play strats even if my order's giver is dead. You can only order 1 unit within a certain range. It's a mechanic of guard. And they are not at all similar.

I wrote a giant ass paragraph about how marines are not lesser than guard, but then I deleted it. Guard derangement syndrome is a big problem on these forums, and every single thread has a 50% chance of being derailed by the Antifa of 40k, whinning and crying about how broken guard are.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's guardsmen or plaguebearers, not sure which. They are box obnoxious and "win" buttons vs marines over 50% of the time.

assuming you mean poxwalkers here, imo come in behind guardsmen in the undercosted front, they have some interesting mechanics liek fearless, 5+ ignore wounds and the awesome add models for those slain in the fight phase thus allowing you to more easily tripoint enemies. They are 6 ppm a full 50% more than guardsman and cannot fallback and act normally with orders. The issue with guardsmen is just between adding cheap cp and ignoring the penalty for falling back with orders they just offer way to much utility. note both poxwalkers and guardsmen are both very worth it over a standard marine or even a primaris.

No, I mean plaguebearers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you justify the fluff through the stats. Guard are statistically inferior to Space Marines.

The issue is the D6 system. It inherently throws the fluff out the window by making the guardman way more powerful than he should be.

So why not just charge the appropriate points while acknowledging this problem?

Ideally that is what should happen. Guardsman need to go up a point and space marines need to go down several. When will GW do this though/will they... idk. Personally i would liek to see 11 point marines to start with and adjust down if they are still performing poorly.

OK, but, Guardsman cost isn't the issue. They are not at all intrinsically related. Guardsmen are appropriately costed, and Space marines are too high. Guard don't get access to all the golly gee whiz cool kid stuff that SMs do. Then again, who cares, the NuMarines are replacing Oldboys anyway.

except guardsmen DO get access to most of the space Marines toys, plasma, melta Lascanons etc. guard get access to all that. no they don't have power armor and boltguns but they have pretty much everything else Marines have, on a cheaper base too. meanwhile Guard have access to chapter tactics for ALL their units not just infantry bikes and dreads. and the roders system, which is a huge force multipler. I have always maintained that there is no legitmate reason for guard to get chapter tactics and orders. Orders should be stratigiums, costing command points. because as it stands every other army in the game to issue special orders to a unit to increase it's effectiveness has to spend command points, guard can do that "just cause"

I disagree with your assessment of the guard orders and strats. Guard orders work on a 4+ roll. Strategems always work if you pay the cost. I can still play strats even if my order's giver is dead. You can only order 1 unit within a certain range. It's a mechanic of guard. And they are not at all similar.

I wrote a giant ass paragraph about how marines are not lesser than guard, but then I deleted it. Guard derangement syndrome is a big problem on these forums, and every single thread has a 50% chance of being derailed by the Antifa of 40k, whinning and crying about how broken guard are.

Guard orders only roll for conscripts.

The HQ units that can issue orders can issue them to two units, and the warlord can issue to a third if outfitted properly.

"Guard derangement syndrome is a big problem on these forums"

Yeah, its called math.

Martel732 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's guardsmen or plaguebearers, not sure which. They are box obnoxious and "win" buttons vs marines over 50% of the time.

assuming you mean poxwalkers here, imo come in behind guardsmen in the undercosted front, they have some interesting mechanics liek fearless, 5+ ignore wounds and the awesome add models for those slain in the fight phase thus allowing you to more easily tripoint enemies. They are 6 ppm a full 50% more than guardsman and cannot fallback and act normally with orders. The issue with guardsmen is just between adding cheap cp and ignoring the penalty for falling back with orders they just offer way to much utility. note both poxwalkers and guardsmen are both very worth it over a standard marine or even a primaris.

No, I mean plaguebearers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you justify the fluff through the stats. Guard are statistically inferior to Space Marines.

The issue is the D6 system. It inherently throws the fluff out the window by making the guardman way more powerful than he should be.

So why not just charge the appropriate points while acknowledging this problem?

Ideally that is what should happen. Guardsman need to go up a point and space marines need to go down several. When will GW do this though/will they... idk. Personally i would liek to see 11 point marines to start with and adjust down if they are still performing poorly.

OK, but, Guardsman cost isn't the issue. They are not at all intrinsically related. Guardsmen are appropriately costed, and Space marines are too high. Guard don't get access to all the golly gee whiz cool kid stuff that SMs do. Then again, who cares, the NuMarines are replacing Oldboys anyway.

except guardsmen DO get access to most of the space Marines toys, plasma, melta Lascanons etc. guard get access to all that. no they don't have power armor and boltguns but they have pretty much everything else Marines have, on a cheaper base too. meanwhile Guard have access to chapter tactics for ALL their units not just infantry bikes and dreads. and the roders system, which is a huge force multipler. I have always maintained that there is no legitmate reason for guard to get chapter tactics and orders. Orders should be stratigiums, costing command points. because as it stands every other army in the game to issue special orders to a unit to increase it's effectiveness has to spend command points, guard can do that "just cause"

I disagree with your assessment of the guard orders and strats. Guard orders work on a 4+ roll. Strategems always work if you pay the cost. I can still play strats even if my order's giver is dead. You can only order 1 unit within a certain range. It's a mechanic of guard. And they are not at all similar.

I wrote a giant ass paragraph about how marines are not lesser than guard, but then I deleted it. Guard derangement syndrome is a big problem on these forums, and every single thread has a 50% chance of being derailed by the Antifa of 40k, whinning and crying about how broken guard are.

Guard orders only roll for conscripts.

i find plaugebearers less good percsonally than powwalkers. the -1 to hit if over 20 is cool and they have the 5++ 5+++ and plus 1 T . mayeb i have just faced more poxwalkers than plaugebearers but at 7 ppm the plaugebearers seem less good to me for lackign the *gets charged* *oppponent piles in and you remove casualties* *you attack back* **tripoint models to prevent fallign back of opponent* this is what makes powwalkers amazing in my experience. lockign down units.

What does any of this current discussion have to do with it Marines getting phased out?

 Stormonu wrote:
If there is an Old/Primaris schism, I have to wonder how they’ll handle offshoot books like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves - if at all.

Of course, GW isn’t going to announce when they will cut the old marine line off - if they did so they risk being stuck with a bunch of unsold plastic. I’d watch for kits going “out of stock” and not being restocked as the measure of the line’s remaining life. With “online exclusive” being a precursor to the models ascendant demise.

Seeing as the Angels armies should've been consolidated a long time ago...they handle it with consolidation.

Crazy xenos idea: GW can split classic marines and primaris in 2 books while creating new lore about schism within the empire and putting 2 loyal Primarches (one leading primaris, one leading old marines) against each other. Civil war insues and grimdark intensifies. Old marines get new kits similar to Chaos Marines - more proportional and prettier, maybe with some Heresy era designs; Primaris also get more modern tacticool kits.

Both sides of the marine fanbase are put against each other in confrontation on which codex is better while buying more things and used to make more money for GW simultaneously.

I'd buy that for a dolla!

 Shadenuat wrote:
Crazy xenos idea: GW can split classic marines and primaris in 2 books while creating new lore about schism within the empire and putting 2 loyal Primarches (one leading primaris, one leading old marines) against each other. Civil war insues and grimdark intensifies. Old marines get new kits similar to Chaos Marines - more proportional and prettier, maybe with some Heresy era designs; Primaris also get more modern tacticool kits.

Both sides of the marine fanbase are put against each other in confrontation on which codex is better while buying more things and used to make more money for GW simultaneously.

I love that idea but it's a dream. GW does not want to the up the shelf space that carrying two Marine lines would require. Primaris is the only way forward (for GW). They are going to streamline drastically. No more having 3 different tactical kits and 4 different terminator kits and 3 different assault Marine kits, etc.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Crazy xenos idea: GW can split classic marines and primaris in 2 books while creating new lore about schism within the empire and putting 2 loyal Primarches (one leading primaris, one leading old marines) against each other. Civil war insues and grimdark intensifies. Old marines get new kits similar to Chaos Marines - more proportional and prettier, maybe with some Heresy era designs; Primaris also get more modern tacticool kits.

Both sides of the marine fanbase are put against each other in confrontation on which codex is better while buying more things and used to make more money for GW simultaneously.

Sure. And the next big AOS narrative could be about a schism between the Stormcast and the Bretonnians.

 SickSix wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Crazy xenos idea: GW can split classic marines and primaris in 2 books while creating new lore about schism within the empire and putting 2 loyal Primarches (one leading primaris, one leading old marines) against each other. Civil war insues and grimdark intensifies. Old marines get new kits similar to Chaos Marines - more proportional and prettier, maybe with some Heresy era designs; Primaris also get more modern tacticool kits.

Both sides of the marine fanbase are put against each other in confrontation on which codex is better while buying more things and used to make more money for GW simultaneously.

I love that idea but it's a dream. GW does not want to the up the shelf space that carrying two Marine lines would require. Primaris is the only way forward (for GW). They are going to streamline drastically. No more having 3 different tactical kits and 4 different terminator kits and 3 different assault Marine kits, etc.

How many Primaris Lieutenants are we up to now?

Nurglitch wrote:

How many Primaris Lieutenants are we up to now?

Zero vanilla lieutenants you could buy separately.

 Crimson wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:

How many Primaris Lieutenants are we up to now?

Zero vanilla lieutenants you could buy separately.

It takes almost zero effort to make a Lieutenant out of a normal marine.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Crazy xenos idea: GW can split classic marines and primaris in 2 books while creating new lore about schism within the empire and putting 2 loyal Primarches (one leading primaris, one leading old marines) against each other. Civil war insues and grimdark intensifies. Old marines get new kits similar to Chaos Marines - more proportional and prettier, maybe with some Heresy era designs; Primaris also get more modern tacticool kits.

Both sides of the marine fanbase are put against each other in confrontation on which codex is better while buying more things and used to make more money for GW simultaneously.

Pretty boring. That's just diet Horus Heresy. You've got a whole game built around Astartes v Astartes if you want more of that.

I'd rather they focus on writing good rules for Primaris and expanding the range as quickly as possible. They can keep regular Astartes as index units.
More Primarchs should return as well.

By codex count, half the game is already power armor vs power armor. In practice, I personally rarely see power armor in my area. Primaris vs old marine could be interesting.

 Insectum7 wrote:

It takes almost zero effort to make a Lieutenant out of a normal marine.

Certainly true. As long as the lieutenants don't have any special gear options dedicated models for them are pretty pointless.

 SickSix wrote:
What does any of this current discussion have to do with it Marines getting phased out?

that their points are atrocious, and while other units have gotten stronger classic marines have gotten weaker. losing auto passing morale as an example from atsknf of previous editions while retaining the higher points cost along with how the AP system was reworked so suddenly previous ap4 and 5 weapons chip away at their previous durability whereas they previously did not. meanwhile many other basic troops for armies were buffed this edition from better rules/ more reliant AP values and being able to wound anything on a 6. spae marine punches a T8 tank, wound on a 6, guardsman punches a T8 tank, wounds on a 6. Same AP. I think it is relevant.

 Ishagu wrote:
That's just diet Horus Heresy.

Don't you mahrines love that gak though?

Also, I don't think anything really can feel as threatening to Imperium and its status quo than Imperium itself by this point.

 SickSix wrote:
What does any of this current discussion have to do with it Marines getting phased out?

I guess because people are truly more fearful of Catachan guard replacing marines.

Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

One issue (not unique to marines over all) is that GW seems to make a lot of assumptions about auras and there constant presence when pricing things. It's one reason that I dislike the mechanic as a whole compared to the old IC rules.

It's a lot easier to balance an ability that boosts one unit at a time or one that is army wise. Trying to cost an ability that is insanely variable both on how it works at both a given point level and how many units are around one guy is a problem that GW seems to be ignoring.

Dorn/Russ/Lion returns and now we have primaris against not primaris cold war? Count me in.

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

Good. Get started. The sooner you abandon this sinking ship you hate the sooner you will feel so much more positive.

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.