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What are thoughts for Ironclast versus Infernal for just a 2 man war dog detachment (auto-cannon types).

Anyone thought about what they gonna put in a 1750pt chaos knight list?

BAN wrote:
Anyone thought about what they gonna put in a 1750pt chaos knight list?

I think I was able to fit three Questoris Class Knights (Double Gat Despoiler, Rampager, Desecrator) and two Wardog Helglaives in at that points level. Seems like it should be killy enough.

 BoomWolf wrote:

I also suspect the double-gata is going to drop out of favor.
Yes, its good firepower. but it lacks synrgy-and the stratagems, traits, etc push quite hard into either outright melee, or hybrid types. even if shooty, you likely want two different guns to enjoy the options with the demonic surge.

I somewhat disagree with outright melee or hybrid types. In fact I think the codex in some ways lends its self more to double ranged weapon despoiler class knights.

Iconoclast, makes stomp attacks very reliable with as you go from 12 attacks at -2 AP to 15 attacks at -3 AP. This makes double ranged weapon knights even better in melee. Hybrid knights on the other hand don’t really get much from having a melee weapon, other than being cheaper and having some niche utility against some tougher targets. The thing is you need to get to your target for the reaper/gauntlet to be effective. Even in terms of cost, why pay 30pts for a reaper when you can pay 25pts more for a thermal cannon (thermal cannons are 55pts in the chaos codex)?

Infernals you could boost shooting knights as much as hyrbrid knights with hybrid knights main advantage being that they are more point efficient when it comes to daemonic surge (paying fewer points per wound).

But when it comes to our stratagems and relic I feel we have a few that have more synergy with ranged weapons. The warp sight (ignore hit modifiers) is more potent the more ranged weapons your knight has. The same goes for trail of Destruction, Vow of the Beastslayer and Vow of Carnage. Same goes for dreadblade traits. Double thermal cannon (110pts for two!) knight with Vow of the Beastslayer (re-roll 1s to wound vs 8 wound or more models) and Path to Glory (re-roll to hit vs character and titanic) is a fantastic hunter for 395pts (cheaper than a hybrid Paladin/Errant/Warden).

Personally I see one of the strengths of the Chaos Knight codex is making our shooty knights into hybrid knights without having to sacrifice a ranged weapon.

As for dreadblades, I think they offer a lot of flexibility. Almost all the pacts bar (thunderous charge) are good: Path to glory (re-roll hits against targets that are characters or titanic), Arch Fiend (6" heroic intervention great for area denial on all types of knights), Daemonic Vigor (all rolls are great on shooting knights, +2 movement, +1WS, +1BS), Galvanised Hull (reducing AP-1 is really strong against armies that mostly have AP-1 Ork Lootas/Tau missile pods). Profane Secret is for when you just want an extra CP and boost your leadership making you less like to be affected by burdens (or powers like mind control). The point is you can choose on the fly after seeing your opponents list, which makes them very powerful.

Burdens, I pick Forsaken it makes it less likely for you to fail your burden in the first place, effectively making it a leadership 9 test as opposed to a leadership 8 test (you have to roll under you leadership for burdens not equal or under like leadership tests). Then Warp Fugue (strike last doesn’t really cripple shooting knights as they tend to charge none combat specialist units). So even when you do fail a burden with those two traits it isn’t particularly crippling. If not being able to use stratagems on your knight is too much of a risk to your game plan, and you don’t mind failing burdens more often then Volatile Reactor (at the end of phase in which you took one or more wounds take a mortal wound on a 4+) is another option.

Just my thoughts.

One thing that I believe was brought up by Reecius on the Chapter Tactics podcast was taking a Despoiler with two ranged weapons (his was double battle cannons but I definitely think two AGCs would work just as well) and giving it Vow of Carnage.

At first glance this seems a bit off, giving the CC Vow to a ranged knight, but the idea is that you spend the first few turns shooting down models and screens then charge in once you've built up an extra attack or two, you charge in with a ludicrous amount of stomps at AP -3. You're getting at least 15 with the Iconoclast bonus, and can pretty quickly reach 18-24 depending on the army you face. Since you build up the model count a lot more quickly with ranged weapons you come online earlier, in theory.

My thought was to bring this as a Despoiler with two AGCs and the Helm of Warpsight, and use it to clear screens for two CC focused Knights (in my case a Lancer and an Acheron, but CC Despoilers and Rampagers would work just as well) and then move up behind to charge in and clean up their leftovers.

Any thoughts? I can't seem to get it out of my head since I heard it yesterday.

Would have preferred a Valiant, but I grabbed the IK Apocalypse box for the free Armigers.

What do we think is best traits/relics for the big baddie Castellan?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Would have preferred a Valiant, but I grabbed the IK Apocalypse box for the free Armigers.

What do we think is best traits/relics for the big baddie Castellan?

If you're Infernal, the extra strength and damage makes the Plasma close to a loyalist's Cawl's Wrath.

For Iconoclast, the Vow of Dominance on a Tyrant seems scary.

For relics, the one that lets your count as double wounds is good, also the Veil to save your CP and not have to rotate ion Shields would be good. He's also a pretty good target for making Obsec with Infernal Quest, since he's a pretty great backfield objective holder.

Mushkilla is right listen to him. Overall I like Iconoclast more than infernal. The Warpsurge table is very nice, but none of the infernal Stratagems excite me as much as the Iconclast vows.

Bind the souls of the defeated is nice when you need it, but it cost 2 CP and might fail to do much (you could fail to hit or wound enough models to get wounds back, or just roll not enough 4+) assuming you even want to use it.

Comeback on a 4+ is the best infernal stratagem, but could also fail and chaos doesn't have a stratagem to make a knight go back to full bracket.

Diabolic rift IMO is the most overrated stratagem of the book. A) it only works against pysker armies and B) probably wont actually work against pysker heavy armies. Good players know you have this stratagem, and they're going to avoid putting their pyskers near you knights when possible. There's also things like faseers and Magnus of the world who just ignore your mortal wounds on a 2+. Overall, not a great Stratagem.

Salt donkey wrote:
Mushkilla is right listen to him. Overall I like Iconoclast more than infernal. The Warpsurge table is very nice, but none of the infernal Stratagems excite me as much as the Iconclast vows.

Bind the souls of the defeated is nice when you need it, but it cost 2 CP and might fail to do much (you could fail to hit or wound enough models to get wounds back, or just roll not enough 4+) assuming you even want to use it.

Comeback on a 4+ is the best infernal stratagem, but could also fail and chaos doesn't have a stratagem to make a knight go back to full bracket.

Diabolic rift IMO is the most overrated stratagem of the book. A) it only works against pysker armies and B) probably wont actually work against pysker heavy armies. Good players know you have this stratagem, and they're going to avoid putting their pyskers near you knights when possible. There's also things like faseers and Magnus of the world who just ignore your mortal wounds on a 2+. Overall, not a great Stratagem.

I iconoclast definately have the edge out of the two houses imo, they are just more survivable and survivable knights are trouble for people (see 3++ castellan).

I would also say that the rampager/mele questoris are worth taking in a lot of lists. They are a wrecking machine over the double gat knight in mele, 3 more stomps hitting on 2+ or using the fist with Khornate target is super powerful. Plus they are 100 points cheaper.

I'm going to run 2x thermal, agc and stormspear questoris and a rampager with some red cosairs. I've run them in test games and they are durable and put out a lot of hurt.

Something I've been wondering about... do you get to keep Iconoclast/ Infernal traits and relic (and stratagem?) access as a single Questoris Knight in an Auxiliary Superheavy Detachment? Because I thought in the Imperial codex you don't.

Salt donkey wrote:
Mushkilla is right listen to him. Overall I like Iconoclast more than infernal. The Warpsurge table is very nice, but none of the infernal Stratagems excite me as much as the Iconclast vows.

Thanks. Although I think Iconoclast is stronger. I personally prefer infernal, yes there stratagems are situational but that's ok. If you need a knight to get back up to win the game, then a 4+ is better than nothing, etc.

The part that really sells me is Daemonic Surge, it's like having three really good stratagems that you can use on multiple knights at the same time and don't cost CP. Being able to take damage to improve the performance of your knights is great, as often I find a knight is either dead or sitting on full wounds. Also not all lists win by destroying your knights and in those match up trading resilience that you are not using for speed and damage is strong.

But that's just my take from the few games I've had with the new codex. I do still think Iconoclast is the stronger of the two.

Pandabeer wrote:
Something I've been wondering about... do you get to keep Iconoclast/ Infernal traits and relic (and stratagem?) access as a single Questoris Knight in an Auxiliary Superheavy Detachment? Because I thought in the Imperial codex you don't.

I think you loose the benefit of the household ambitions but keep everything else. Same as imperial, you could also make a dreadblade in a single detachment if you needed to.

 small_gods wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Something I've been wondering about... do you get to keep Iconoclast/ Infernal traits and relic (and stratagem?) access as a single Questoris Knight in an Auxiliary Superheavy Detachment? Because I thought in the Imperial codex you don't.

I think you loose the benefit of the household ambitions but keep everything else. Same as imperial, you could also make a dreadblade in a single detachment if you needed to.

Hmm, pity :( I had an Iconoclast build in mind for a single Questoris Dreadblade to add to my Black Legion but it hinges on Vow of Dominance as it's crux. Hmm, maybe I'll get a box of Warglaives and field a big one and 3 or 4 small ones at about 1k points (usual game size for me) and a big one plus 2 small ones + BL batallion for the occasional 1.5K game.

Pandabeer wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Something I've been wondering about... do you get to keep Iconoclast/ Infernal traits and relic (and stratagem?) access as a single Questoris Knight in an Auxiliary Superheavy Detachment? Because I thought in the Imperial codex you don't.

I think you loose the benefit of the household ambitions but keep everything else. Same as imperial, you could also make a dreadblade in a single detachment if you needed to.

Hmm, pity :( I had an Iconoclast build in mind for a single Questoris Dreadblade to add to my Black Legion but it hinges on Vow of Dominance as it's crux. Hmm, maybe I'll get a box of Warglaives and field a big one and 3 or 4 small ones at about 1k points (usual game size for me) and a big one plus 2 small ones + BL batallion for the occasional 1.5K game.

You can still use stratergems on them, they just lose the trait you get for it. So you can have an iconoclast knight that just doesn't get the extra attack on a charge etc. You should be good to go. If you need the trait, 2 wardogs aren't that expensive and will add some cp to the list too

Honest question.
A Melee knight desecrator.
Can that work? Especially in a mechanized R&H army?
Also what points would i be talking?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honest question.
A Melee knight desecrator.
Can that work? Especially in a mechanized R&H army?
Also what points would i be talking?

I think the desecrator has to take laser destructor with either of the mele weapons it's 385 points. The Rampager is the double mele version it is 387 points. It's the same as the gallant but with 2 hits on natural 6s to hit with big mele weapons. You can also run it as knight despoiler (normal mele knight that can take carapace weapons but doesn't get exploding 6s).

Imo I wouldn't take a desecrator unless you had at least 2 wardogs to use his reroll aura. The weapon is adverage and it's expensive compared to a normal mele/shooty knight.

I really like the rampager, it's a beast and can make use of a lot of the decent artifacts and warlord traits. Wither the Khorne artifact the slanesh one or the relic fist are all good choices. It's also tough as nails if you run it as iconoclast and give it vow of dominance.

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honest question.
A Melee knight desecrator.
Can that work? Especially in a mechanized R&H army?
Also what points would i be talking?

I think the desecrator has to take laser destructor with either of the mele weapons it's 385 points. The Rampager is the double mele version it is 387 points. It's the same as the gallant but with 2 hits on natural 6s to hit with big mele weapons. You can also run it as knight despoiler (normal mele knight that can take carapace weapons but doesn't get exploding 6s).

Imo I wouldn't take a desecrator unless you had at least 2 wardogs to use his reroll aura. The weapon is adverage and it's expensive compared to a normal mele/shooty knight.

I really like the rampager, it's a beast and can make use of a lot of the decent artifacts and warlord traits. Wither the Khorne artifact the slanesh one or the relic fist are all good choices. It's also tough as nails if you run it as iconoclast and give it vow of dominance.

With wardogs you mean chaos amirigers right?

good, because i fully intend to magnetize one Chaos knight of the new set and i allready have to kitbahsed beauties regarding amirigers.

Yeah wardogs are the new chaos armigers. I've not tried them out myself. I've used 2 rampagers and a despoiler with avenger gatling cannon, thermal cannon and stormspear in a game. Really impressed with the iconoclast rampagers.

 small_gods wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Something I've been wondering about... do you get to keep Iconoclast/ Infernal traits and relic (and stratagem?) access as a single Questoris Knight in an Auxiliary Superheavy Detachment? Because I thought in the Imperial codex you don't.

I think you loose the benefit of the household ambitions but keep everything else. Same as imperial, you could also make a dreadblade in a single detachment if you needed to.

Hmm, pity :( I had an Iconoclast build in mind for a single Questoris Dreadblade to add to my Black Legion but it hinges on Vow of Dominance as it's crux. Hmm, maybe I'll get a box of Warglaives and field a big one and 3 or 4 small ones at about 1k points (usual game size for me) and a big one plus 2 small ones + BL batallion for the occasional 1.5K game.

You can still use stratergems on them, they just lose the trait you get for it. So you can have an iconoclast knight that just doesn't get the extra attack on a charge etc. You should be good to go. If you need the trait, 2 wardogs aren't that expensive and will add some cp to the list too

I'll give it some thought, most I want from Iconoclast is the Vow of Dominance anyway because it's a fully kitted out Chaos Crusader. Then the Dreadblade relic for 5++ in melee and the Galvanized Hull pact for ignoring AP -1. Probably the anti-psychic WT as well through Court of Traitors (or something else if the opponent doesn't have Psykers). Then take Profane Secrets as well to get some of those CP back. Then Black Legion Batallion led by a Lord Discordant with Indomitable and Sightless Helm for a CC monster. That'll be two tanky bastards to take down at around 1.25k points Don't know if there's a way to fit it into 1k because I'm using CSM for troops (dislike Cultists, don't have them either).

Can someone with book in-hand verify if you can be a dreadblade in an auxiliary superheavy detachment please?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Can someone with book in-hand verify if you can be a dreadblade in an auxiliary superheavy detachment please?

Yes, you can make any knight a dreadblade, it gains the dreadblade faction keyword. So theoretically all your knights can be dreadblades. One dreadblade per detachment can be given pacts and damnations.

It reads 'if your army is battleforged then before the battle you can give one dreadblade model in each detachment pacts and damnations'.

Super heavy auxiliary only stops you from benefitting from iconoclast or infernal household ambitions. It doesn't change any keywords.

So this bummed me out but probably balances the relic:

Helm of Warp-Sight - When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this relic, ignore hit roll modifiers.

So its only one weapon... still seems decent though against the right armies.

orkswubwub wrote:
So this bummed me out but probably balances the relic:

Helm of Warp-Sight - When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this relic, ignore hit roll modifiers.

So its only one weapon... still seems decent though against the right armies.

If that's the wording, I don't see what limits it to one weapon.

If it said once per turn, or CHOOSE a weapon then yes, it would stink. But it just says whenever you shoot with one.

orkswubwub wrote:
So this bummed me out but probably balances the relic:

Helm of Warp-Sight - When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this relic, ignore hit roll modifiers.

So its only one weapon... still seems decent though against the right armies.

Not sure how you are coming to that conclusion. But if you read the core rules -section 4. resolve attacks, it's pretty clear.

The wording is:

“When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this Relic, ignore hit roll modifiers”

Let's break it down.

when: Are you resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this relic?

YES

Then: Ignore hit roll modifiers.

...later when firing another weapon...

when: Are you resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this relic?

YES

Then: ignore hit roll modifiers.

...etc...

It's the same wording for all our stratagems relics.

Skyreaper protocols:

“... when resolving an attack made with that weapon against a unit that can FLY, you can re-roll the hit roll.”

when: Are you resolving an attack made with that weapon against a unit that can FLY

YES

Then: you can re-roll the hit roll.

...etc...

Hope that helps.

Yup, the helmet is clearly effecting all guns. its pretty darn good.

But so are so many other relics XD

Haven’t got my book yet.

Anyone with a copy able to confirm wardog variant points?

Also from my understanding the chaos equivalent of a gallant is now 387 points and a duel avenger gatling knight clocks in at 457?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Haven’t got my book yet.

Anyone with a copy able to confirm wardog variant points?

Also from my understanding the chaos equivalent of a gallant is now 387 points and a duel avenger gatling knight clocks in at 457?

162 for chain cleaver with stubber and 172 fir autocannon with stubber.

Double Gatling knight with stubber is 485 now!!

Thanks

So I’ve gotten 4 practice games with codex with following list.

Iconoclast house

Melee despoiler, dreadblade = 372 points

Despoiler with 2 avenger gattling cannons and iron storm rocket pod. Warlord with veil of 4++ save = 501 points.

Depsoiler with thermo cannon, battle cannon, and stormspear rocket pod. Dreadblade = 479 points

Red Corsair battalion, soul forge pack

2 x disco lord= 320 points

3 x CSM squads= 195 points

Thousand sons aux

Ahriman on foot 131 points

In the 4 games I went 3-1, with the 1 loss coming against a billion fire warriors and triple riptide tau list. That matchup is a bad one for chaos knights IMO and it didn’t help that I misplayed a bunch during it. You have to fear fire warriors, but I was far too conservative when deploying my army. With that out of the way here are my overall thoughts.

Inconclast takes a bunch pre game mental space in order to get right. Between dreadblade pacts and damnations, vows, extra warlord traits, and extra relics there are a lot things you need to keep track of at the beginning of the game. It can be easy to go overboard here so make sure you have an idea of what things your going to want vs certain armies. Thankfully most of the “choices” you have here are mostly on auto pilot. Take the re-roll 1s on for wounding against 8+ wound models when facing said models. Take the sightless helmet if you are facing things with -1 to hit modifiers, etc.

Dreadblade pacts are very competitive. Make sure all your guys that can have these do have these. With the forsaken damnation you won’t fail the the leadership test very often, and the benifits you reap from this table can be game changing. In one of my games I faced knights with the G-man, and the re-roll hits against titanic units helped immensely here.

Bring lots of CPs with chaos knights! Somehow chaos knights want more CP than their imperial brethren. It’s gotten to the point where
I’m actually considering dropping the soulforge pact on my lord discordants, so that I save 2-3 CP each game. I even think the +1 CP dreadblade pact might be worth it from time to time. You’re going to want armies that bring 13+ CP minimum with chaos knights.

Wardog’s are a lot better for chaos than they are for imperial. Despite not playing with them in my list I can see wardogs being very good just for building detachments. Chaos armies want a lot of different things in a lists, so being able to fit more points into a knight list might be invaluable. I absolutely missed the board presence I normally get in my lists.