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So I was up at my local game spot yesterday, chilling out as I do and I heard two guys chatting over a game of 40K. One of them said he'd just finished a book that was a "bad rip-off" of Warhammer 40K.

This peaked my interest, so I chimed in and asked for the name of the book.

He responded by saying " I can't quite remember, but I think it was called "Sand Dunes" or something like that."

I said, "Wait, do you mean Dune?"

He said he thought so, and started talking about how it was a big rip off of W40K.

I just stood there in complete shock.

Kids these days...

Somewhere is someone decades older than you ranting about the kids and their new-fangled "Dune" which likely was inspired by something else earlier.

And that's the way the cycle goes. Very few works are totally unique and most are a product of their times, which means that they will often have inspirations that draw from similar sources. These things can also come in waves, eg Cuthulu is going through a big revival in general in the cult settings; whilst Lord of the Rings has likely had a massive impact all over again after the films.

Of course few things come from a single inspiration and two things can be made and appear to be inspired by each other and yet were actually inspired by something else entirely.

That's more or less how I feel when someone says "I've got this old Warhammer figure..." and it's from like 2010....

I feel like this happens all the time honestly.

Great works codify and shape a genre, and then you add 20 years and that's what the whole genre sort of looks like. People assume the work that inspired that shape and set the mold in place is generic/mediocre, unaware that everything else is just following in its footsteps.

A great example is the Call of Duty series. The first 3 main games of the franchise completely reshaped the FPS genre, but today it's mostly a franchise known for being stale and samey even though it's only stale and samey because it built the mold as people know it. I once read a review of Everquest II that called it a bad "WoW clone," the writer apparently unaware of the irony of that statement.

With Cyberpunk 2077 coming, I've seen people talk about the original board game and how it helped codify the genre alongside Ghost in the Shell and Neuromancer, and I've seen all those things get called Matrix rip offs.

This is why you should never aspire to be a trend setter You pour your heart and soul, make something truly inspiring, and then 20 years later everyone is accusing you of ripping off from all those posers who just ripped you off!

It's worth noting, since we're on the topic, this is something that is heavily considered within film making. My favourite big-stompy-robot genre is Robotech. They've been talking about making a Hollywood level film for about 15 years. One of the concerns the critics sited was that 90% of people have probably never heard of Robotech and would simply assume it was a lazy copy of Transformers, etc.

 Togusa wrote:
So I was up at my local game spot yesterday, chilling out as I do and I heard two guys chatting over a game of 40K. One of them said he'd just finished a book that was a "bad rip-off" of Warhammer 40K.

This peaked my interest, so I chimed in and asked for the name of the book.

He responded by saying " I can't quite remember, but I think it was called "Sand Dunes" or something like that."

I said, "Wait, do you mean Dune?"

He said he thought so, and started talking about how it was a big rip off of W40K.

I just stood there in complete shock.

Kids these days...

That's literally unbelievable. As in, it lacks believability. I mean, I'm sure you heard him correctly, but I am also pretty sure he was yanking your chain.

The first Dune book has very little in common with 40k; the God Emperor of Dune is a later book. There's no way someone read past the first book or two and still couldn't remember the name or details of the series, and anyone so ignorant of Dune's place in literary culture would also be ignorant of the later aspects of the franchise that heavily influenced 40k.

This is like saying someone read the original edition of Triplanetary and called it a ripoff of Green Lantern. It just doesn't add up.

 Elbows wrote:
It's worth noting, since we're on the topic, this is something that is heavily considered within film making. My favourite big-stompy-robot genre is Robotech. They've been talking about making a Hollywood level film for about 15 years. One of the concerns the critics sited was that 90% of people have probably never heard of Robotech and would simply assume it was a lazy copy of Transformers, etc.

Which is actually completely on topic, since Robotech is a straight up rip off that I can point an accusatory finger at for being all around garbage even by the standards of the 80s and the thing foremost preventing US releases of the Macross franchise. A pox on Harmony Gold, and a lawsuit on international release.

This is known as the "John Carter Effect".


As for the LOTR film, I recall there was a huge shift in Fantasy away from LOTR knockoffs after the movies came out. Fantasy had been a stale subgenre for a couple of decades due to the heavy influence of LOTR and DnD, and then suddenly it opened up again into vibrancy. I personally credit the rush of other publishers bringing back the more experimental or weird fantasy from the pulpy days to cash in on nostalgia as well as a serious LOTR backlash in series like GoT and Banewreaker, or even a backlash against Fat Fantasy itself. At the same time Urban Fantasy was making serious inroads against additional fantasy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Traditional. Stupid autocorrect.

Happens with music all the time.

Hell, I’m 39, and still discovering favourites are covers. Upside of course is that through a little YouTube magic, I can quickly find the original and give it a listen.

For instance? I give you the Bobby Fuller Four.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ytE2JMyBAe0

I now prefer this version to the Clash’s cover.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It's worth noting, since we're on the topic, this is something that is heavily considered within film making. My favourite big-stompy-robot genre is Robotech. They've been talking about making a Hollywood level film for about 15 years. One of the concerns the critics sited was that 90% of people have probably never heard of Robotech and would simply assume it was a lazy copy of Transformers, etc.

Which is actually completely on topic, since Robotech is a straight up rip off that I can point an accusatory finger at for being all around garbage even by the standards of the 80s and the thing foremost preventing US releases of the Macross franchise. A pox on Harmony Gold, and a lawsuit on international release.

Who pissed in your cereal? Relax. Robotech was great. Sorry I couldn't afford translated copies of Macross when I was nine...oh the shame.

 Elbows wrote:
Who pissed in your cereal?

Harmony Gold that's who! Which actually gives the company brand name a weird new twist that isn't very pleasant...

I'm mostly jesting though (only mostly). Poe's law damnit. I have heard the talk about the Transformer's comparison before. And there's that legal stuff about the old Jetfire toy that was basically a repackaged Veritech fighter toy, or was it the other way around? IDK. Can't remember. But I remember when Macross Frontiers was all over streaming sites (probably the first Macross series to get lots of stateside attention) and lots of people were calling it a Robotech ripoff... Of course I've also seen people call Mobile Suit Gundam a Robotech rip off, which is much weirder.

Kind of goes back to the age thing. Robotech was one of the first "animes" to hit mainstream in the US. Gundam wouldn't arrive and be well known for another ten years. I've seen people call Dragonball a knockoff too, citing Bleach, Naruto, and One Piece.

Like I said. Never be a trend setter. The glory only lasts so long

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
So I was up at my local game spot yesterday, chilling out as I do and I heard two guys chatting over a game of 40K. One of them said he'd just finished a book that was a "bad rip-off" of Warhammer 40K.

This peaked my interest, so I chimed in and asked for the name of the book.

He responded by saying " I can't quite remember, but I think it was called "Sand Dunes" or something like that."

I said, "Wait, do you mean Dune?"

He said he thought so, and started talking about how it was a big rip off of W40K.

I just stood there in complete shock.

Kids these days...

That's literally unbelievable. As in, it lacks believability. I mean, I'm sure you heard him correctly, but I am also pretty sure he was yanking your chain.

The first Dune book has very little in common with 40k; the God Emperor of Dune is a later book. There's no way someone read past the first book or two and still couldn't remember the name or details of the series, and anyone so ignorant of Dune's place in literary culture would also be ignorant of the later aspects of the franchise that heavily influenced 40k.

This is like saying someone read the original edition of Triplanetary and called it a ripoff of Green Lantern. It just doesn't add up.

He wasn't. I had to run to my apartment and get my copy to show him the copyright date in my edition of the book, once he saw that he got really quiet and tried to backpedal on his original statement. His oppoent said he'd never even heard of Frank Herbert or Dune, but assured me he was a great fan of old science fiction. His example was that he had read Starship Troopers "Once in middle school."

*Slowly inhales* Damn.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
*Slowly inhales* Damn.

I asked what other titles his friend like from the olden days of science fiction and he said "Halo books are pretty good."

The sad thing is I'm not even that old.

Story time.

When I was in HS, I had a reading comprehension that was college level. The analyst told my parents I read as well as a graduate student. But, I hated reading. I found it to be dull when compared to experiencing a story through film or games. In my English 2 course, we were set to read a bunch of Shakespeare stuff, It was a literal nightmare for me to wade through Macbeth. So my teacher gave me an alternative. He told me that I had to read something else of equal value, and when I asked him for suggestions he responded by asking me what I liked. I of course said Dungeons and Dragons and Star Trek, so he suggested I read LoTR. I read all three books and did my semester projects on them. During my English 3 course, the same was true, but this time it was of Dune. All 6 books in one semester, I loved it. After that I discovered a whole treasure trove of stories, from Larry Niven's Ringworld series, to Terry Pratchet's books, to the Hyperion Saga and a lot of the old Asimov stuff. Ray Bradbury was another great find for me in the latter days of my HS education.

Personally I felt that Dune was the best, to date I've never ready anything that so captured my attention and sense of awe and wonder. I can recall many a time sitting on my bedroom windowsill staring at the stars and just imagining all the scenes, characters, ships and so on from Dune, creating my own version of what those things might actually look like.

And this is why I sit down and watch classic movies with my son. I’d love to be able to force him to read classic sci-fi, but that’s a lot harder then popping a DVD in the player and making some popcorn.

Of course film making has shifted a lot over the years. Pacing, tone, content, everything.

It’s tough to figure out what to show him. At 13, he’s not got the greatest attention span, and is used to the flash/cut, explosion and car chase of a modern movie. I don’t want his first impression of something to be “boring” but can’t drag him to the newest Godzilla flick without him having seen the original.

A few weeks ago I was talking to him about how every western is a samurai movie and vise versus. You have all the classic Kurosawa movies that were redone (Yojimbo, Seven Samurai, etc) but black and white, slow paced, subtitled moves are going to be a hard sell. I’d like to get a copy of Hidden Fortress, to show the parallels to Star Wars. I already watched the audio swapped clips of The Dam Busters/Death Star trench run with him.

It’s fine to enjoy modern remakes, but acknowledge the originals.

Also, Darn kids these days! Get off my lawn!

Ah, the ol' "Seinfeld is unfunny" effect at work here.

 Nevelon wrote:
And this is why I sit down and watch classic movies with my son. I’d love to be able to force him to read classic sci-fi, but that’s a lot harder then popping a DVD in the player and making some popcorn.

Of course film making has shifted a lot over the years. Pacing, tone, content, everything.

It’s tough to figure out what to show him. At 13, he’s not got the greatest attention span, and is used to the flash/cut, explosion and car chase of a modern movie. I don’t want his first impression of something to be “boring” but can’t drag him to the newest Godzilla flick without him having seen the original.

A few weeks ago I was talking to him about how every western is a samurai movie and vise versus. You have all the classic Kurosawa movies that were redone (Yojimbo, Seven Samurai, etc) but black and white, slow paced, subtitled moves are going to be a hard sell. I’d like to get a copy of Hidden Fortress, to show the parallels to Star Wars. I already watched the audio swapped clips of The Dam Busters/Death Star trench run with him.

It’s fine to enjoy modern remakes, but acknowledge the originals.

Also, Darn kids these days! Get off my lawn!

A recent date of mine said she's never seen Tombstone. So we decided to watch it together, she couldn't handle the train station scene. She said the long time of them waiting for him to arrive on the train at the beginning was boring, didn't make sense and was a "waste" of space.

I was really shocked to hear. This same person also couldn't make it through the original cut of Blade Runner, because the "monologue was too cerebral."

Needless to say I told her this wasn't working for me and we should see other people...

This is like all the new anime fans who started watching recently going back recently and watching EVa and saying its blands and junk like that.
Bitch please, it shaped this genre.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Ah, the ol' "Seinfeld is unfunny" effect at work here.

No, that's a completely different thing. Things are new to people who never experienced them before.
Seinfeld just... isn't funny. Even when it aired it was bored people doing irrational things, just with a set and a studio's cameras.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
This is like all the new anime fans who started watching recently going back recently and watching EVa and saying its blands and junk like that.
Bitch please, it shaped this genre.

Case in point. Eva is a latecomer to the genre. It barely squeeked in at the end of the century. The shapers of the genre were an entire lifetime before that.

Something something kids, something something lawn.

Voss wrote:
Case in point. Eva is a latecomer to the genre. It barely squeeked in at the end of the century. The shapers of the genre were an entire lifetime before that.

IDK. The page itself makes a compelling case for Seinfield changing the shape of sitcoms if you scroll down. Law and Order is on there too, and for a reason I hadn't considered before (the shows willingness to tackle politically charged topics) and sure enough my recollection of pre-90s TV is that it generally went out of its way to be as apolitical as possible, whereas today trying to be apolitical will get accusation of political bias thrown at you from any number of directions.

Case in point. Eva is a latecomer to the genre. It barely squeeked in at the end of the century. The shapers of the genre were an entire lifetime before that.

And honestly, on that you're just plain incorrect, at least in the context of codifiers of genres. NGE completely changed the face of how anime makers wrote stories and presented characters. Every character in the show basically spawned and popularized uncountable expies, some of whom are today much more famous than the Eva character that inspired them (Rin Tohsaka is much more famous today than Asuaka Langly Soruyu). it was arguably the anime that proved a TV series could become merchandising powerhouse in Japan. It's been compared to Star Wars, in terms of how it reshaped the industry. Hells, it is the "trope namer" for a half dozen tropes, and the the series that popularized dozens of others in the genre. Compare the number of "kid goes to school during the day and deals with existential crisis afterward" animes/manga before and after Evangelion. It's a rather stark difference. Entire scenes, composition styles, and plotlines owe their existence to Evangelion popularizing them. EDIT: Heck, compare the length of an anime series before and after NGE. Guess why 13-26 was the standard length of a series for nearly 15 years.

Note: I don't think being "first" is remotely relevant here. Many genre shapers are not the first to do what they do. They're just the ones who popularized it, or changed how things were done.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
This is like all the new anime fans who started watching recently going back recently and watching EVa and saying its blands and junk like that.
Bitch please, it shaped this genre.

Influential and good are not synonyms.

Take LOTR, it's almost impossible to overstate how important it is as an influential work, but it's bloated, rambling and highly self indulgent on occasion. Even should you disagree with that assessment, it is tough to make a compelling argument that it's influence is any way proportionate to its quality as a literary work.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Even should you disagree with that assessment, it is tough to make a compelling argument that it's influence is any way proportionate to its quality as a literary work.

Honestly, I feel like there's an inverse here in that just because something is good doesn't mean everyone will or even should like it. I don't even disagree that LOTR is bloated, rambling, and highly self-indulgent. That's part of its charm to me. Honestly, I think many of the best works of high fantasy are bloated, rambling, and highly self-indulgent (honestly, anything more complex than dime store novels is going to be a little self-indulgent). I don't expect everyone to like it, but converse to the statement that influence != quality, how much people like something doesn't really say much either. Twilight broke sales records. People loved it. How many people are actually going to honestly stand up and call it "good?" Same to 50 Shades, Bayformers, or any number of other highly successful things people liked but that were ultimately mostly crap.

I hate NGE more and more as time has gone on. It's a bunch of first-year psyche student claptrap masquerading with nonsensical Judeo-Christian motifs that don't mean anything and annoying characters that, if actually shouldered with saving humanity, would... basically result in how NGE ended so actually yeah that part holds up. I don't think the series has aged well. Even Rebuild of Evangelion in updating the series' story has been mostly pretentious empty symbolism with annoying characters who can only doom the world under the weight of their overbearing character flaws, but even then I don't know if I can call it bad. I just don't like it that much outside of the all to brief but great fights.

You don't end up shaping the genre because your quality isn't up to snuff. In some ways I can see time as playing a big part. LOTR broke ground for fantasy. It was mature, targeted not just at children, and told a complex story on a broad scale unheard of in literature at the time. Is it perfect? That would be a bold statement. Is it quality? Obviously, otherwise, it never would have influenced nearly every book that followed to the point 40-50 years of fantasy is just derivative knock-offs of varying qualities themselves. LOTR is probably a more literal example of Seinfeld is Unfunny honestly. It's not that it's badly written. It's just that it was written in another century, by a guy who was purposefully emulating written works from an even different century. I feel the same at times reading HP Lovecraft. The prose often seem archaic to a modern reader, though in a way that's kind of retroactively enhanced the charm because what people do and don't enjoy is a fickle thing.

EDIT: And honestly, we can probably expand from Lovecraft, pointing out the highly influential nature of his work that barely anyone read during his lifetime or the immediate decades following his death. It's only in the past two decades that I'd say Lovecraft has managed to become a broader cultural presence outside of niche literary fields and tabletop games.

 LordofHats wrote:

Voss wrote:
Case in point. Eva is a latecomer to the genre. It barely squeeked in at the end of the century. The shapers of the genre were an entire lifetime before that.

IDK. The page itself makes a compelling case for Seinfield changing the shape of sitcoms if you scroll down. Law and Order is on there too, and for a reason I hadn't considered before (the shows willingness to tackle politically charged topics) and sure enough my recollection of pre-90s TV is that it generally went out of its way to be as apolitical as possible, whereas today trying to be apolitical will get accusation of political bias thrown at you from any number of directions.

Case in point. Eva is a latecomer to the genre. It barely squeeked in at the end of the century. The shapers of the genre were an entire lifetime before that.

And honestly, on that you're just plain incorrect, at least in the context of codifiers of genres. NGE completely changed the face of how anime makers wrote stories and presented characters. Every character in the show basically spawned and popularized uncountable expies, some of whom are today much more famous than the Eva character that inspired them (Rin Tohsaka is much more famous today than Asuaka Langly Soruyu). it was arguably the anime that proved a TV series could become merchandising powerhouse in Japan. It's been compared to Star Wars, in terms of how it reshaped the industry. Hells, it is the "trope namer" for a half dozen tropes, and the the series that popularized dozens of others in the genre. Compare the number of "kid goes to school during the day and deals with existential crisis afterward" animes/manga before and after Evangelion. It's a rather stark difference. Entire scenes, composition styles, and plotlines owe their existence to Evangelion popularizing them. EDIT: Heck, compare the length of an anime series before and after NGE. Guess why 13-26 was the standard length of a series for nearly 15 years.

Note: I don't think being "first" is remotely relevant here. Many genre shapers are not the first to do what they do. They're just the ones who popularized it, or changed how things were done.

What now? It's a 'trope namer' solely becuase the kids on tv tropes are familiar with it. Don't read too much into that.

As for merchandizing tv shows, not even close, especially not 'proving' it can work. Thats been an established for anime for decades- just get off the train in Osaka and you'll be face to face with one of the oldest examples of that- Astroboy. And there are lots of other examples in the decades that follow- if, for example, you've never seen a Gundam model or a Lum doll, you're better off not commentating on anime merchandising.

There's a lot of other stuff in there... All of which has been done before and claiming NGE 'popularized' it just sounds like people who talk about it weren't familiar with its predecessors. Which isn't uncommon when westerners talk about anime.

13/26, as I understand it, is a product of risk averse studios. They don't like the big unlimited runs, unless it's a proven property. Even getting to 13 can be difficult these days.

Had a similar moment a few years ago when two girls in front of me in the line at my local store complained that it was unfair that One Direction weren't getting as much media attention as the Beatles despite the former "being much bigger than the Beatles ever were".

I actually recently bought a copy of Dune because I've never read it. I was aware of its pedigree mainly from the famous RTS!

Voss wrote:


What now? It's a 'trope namer' solely becuase the kids on tv tropes are familiar with it. Don't read too much into that.

There is no greater example of influence than a lot of people being familiar with it. You can write the greatest novel of all time, and it'll mean nothing if no one ever read it.

As for merchandizing tv shows, not even close, especially not 'proving' it can work. Thats been an established for anime for decades- just get off the train in Osaka and you'll be face to face with one of the oldest examples of that- Astroboy. And there are lots of other examples in the decades that follow- if, for example, you've never seen a Gundam model or a Lum doll, you're better off not commentating on anime merchandising.

Sure. Lots of animes sold merch before NGE. Lots of animes sold toys to kids, or posters to fans. Robotech and Gundam in particular were very successful off screen early on, but they were outliers. But compare the sales of Gunpla models before and after NGE. Count how many stores dedicated themselves to the sale of novelty figurines. Gainax has sold so many Rei Ayanami figures it blows the mind. A Games Workshop employee might posit the company was actually moving crack. There's no real comparison to merchandising power of anime before NGE to after. Now every anime produces runs of collectibles and novelty items, where as 25 years ago you'd only see the most successful animes get that kind of treatment.

NGE exploded otaku culture from something a few super dedicated people did to something everyone knew about. It was like the Big Bang Theory in terms of normalizing a subculture, if that analogy works at all.

All of which has been done before and claiming NGE 'popularized' it just sounds like people who talk about it weren't familiar with its predecessors.

Again. The greatest novel of all time means nothing if no one ever read it. You can knock it all you want. It doesn't change the fact that even in Japan, more people are familiar with NGE than it's predecessors and that's a big part of how you shape genres.

EDIT: And honestly, what are we even defining as a predecessor here? Space Runaway Ideon is probably the most obvious animes that informed NGE, right down to the human assimilation plotline and the depressing characters and the empty imagery, and I don't think it's particularly well remembered at all. People only know of it as "that other thing Kill'um All Tomino made."

13/26, as I understand it, is a product of risk averse studios.

Yes, and one guess which anime "popularized" the forumla. Setting aside NGE's merchandising, story, and characters, NGE pushed a lot of technical developments. The way it was funded and filmed, combined with its popularity, shifted the way studios made anime. The focus on a set run rather than "however many episodes we can make on our budget" doesn't just change the length of a series. It changes how the story is plotted and written, producing tighter narratives and combining them with higher production values. NGE at the time of its release had insane production value per episode, despite operating on a lower than normal budget since it was produced by a then amateur production house.

Even getting to 13 can be difficult these days.

Yeah. I'd say the standard model today is more like 12-26, with some anime blowing their entire budget on as few as 8 episodes.

 Kroem wrote:
I actually recently bought a copy of Dune because I've never read it. I was aware of its pedigree mainly from the famous RTS!

I've had a lot of people tell me they came to the work via that old PC game. So that doesn't surprise me, it's basically LoTR in space, only a lot more fantastical in its nature.


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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Had a similar moment a few years ago when two girls in front of me in the line at my local store complained that it was unfair that One Direction weren't getting as much media attention as the Beatles despite the former "being much bigger than the Beatles ever were".

Who the feth is "One Direction?"

I remember overhearing someone in a screening of "Troy" (the Brad Pitt one) complaining that the whole Trojan horse thing was such a cliche. And someone at school complaining that I spoiled the end of Apollo 13 for them.

On the other hand, David Bowie is, to me, that actor from Labyrinth. Oh, and he had a few albums out too.

One that's a little odd is Terry Pratchett's Soul Music. About half the jokes on that are Blues Brothers references, but I read the book long before I'd seen The Blues Brothers. The book was still very funny, but in a way that was probably very different to the experience of most readers.

 Togusa wrote:

 Kroem wrote:
I actually recently bought a copy of Dune because I've never read it. I was aware of its pedigree mainly from the famous RTS!

I've had a lot of people tell me they came to the work via that old PC game. So that doesn't surprise me, it's basically LoTR in space, only a lot more fantastical in its nature.

The second time Westwood made a Dune game - the 3D one - they actually had a bundle with the book in the game box. Which is what got me into Dune. It was a neat thing that I rarely see done elsewhere - eg you very rarely see movies bundled with the book (heck many movies don't even make much noise about their source material at times); and even games like The Witcher don't come bundled with a book. OF course physical products have been on a downward trend somewhat but with games trying to clean it up with more "exclusive" content you'd think throwing the book in would be agood way to increase value