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Yet a standalone bakery is unlikely to have shareholders.

GW do, and as stated, are legally obliged to turn the biggest profit margin they can.

With things going all over the shop politically, the price rises are quite possibly 'make hay while the sun shines'.

I used to manage a bar, we set a gross of 60% on drinks. A lot of food was nearer to 80%.

Are you talking net profit instead here? If so 30% is very good, yes.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yet a standalone bakery is unlikely to have shareholders.

GW do, and as stated, are legally obliged to turn the biggest profit margin they can.

With things going all over the shop politically, the price rises are quite possibly 'make hay while the sun shines'.

UK businesses are not legally obliged to turn the largest profit they can. They are legally obliged to work towards the success of the company, but that term can be defined in a number of ways and is deliberately left vague by the law. It does, obviously, involve having positive cash flow and/or making investments towards one, but maximisation of profit is only a criterion if it is stated as such by the company itself. There are a number of obligations, but most are linked to the purposes of the company.

No idea about other countries, but GW is a UK company, so if it set t's purposes as, say "Maintaining the longevity of our flagship gaming products whilst ensuring continued excellence in model design and basing all operations in the UK", that would give them a different set of goals to pure profit (though none zero profit is a necessary means to the end for those goals). I doubt that is the GW position because I just made it up, but I wouldn't be surprised if they have purposes beyond profit and as such are legally obliged to fulfil those goals, as well as the none profit-based measures of success.

Meh what Drager said we’re not the US yet.

The Company's main priority is the company although the well being of staff is mentioned along with shareholders and the customers.

I just priced up the 129pp GC army from the June WD battle report and it comes too £790 for about 2 thirds of an army. That’s crazy forget stuff like ps5’s you could get a gaming PC for what a full army cost. Hell you could get a decent holiday for that it’s crazy money for mass produced plastic toy soldiers hobby or not.

GW run there products to produce a minimum margin of 70% so on the above army they make roughly £550 Profit and that is the bare minimum.

GW in no way NEED to put any prices up based just on there previous financial report, they WANT to put prices up because they are selling hand over fist even at the current very high prices and now want to milk the mug...loyal customers just like Kirby never left.

Honestly it’s fair enough if your willing to pay these prices it is your money, however the current price rise and the following price rises to come are indefensible. Unless your a GW shareholder or a Randian nutjob

Klickor wrote:
Prices doesnt have to increase with inflation. Many things we use today get cheaper and cheaper while also becoming more and more powerful. Like electronics. You get way more for 100$/€ today than you got for 150 10 years ago.

Well, electronics/tech is a sort of special case in that they are introduced at very very low production/high cost, and quickly ramp up to high production/low cost. Yet even then, its not as crazy as it once was: strait-purchase iPhone prices have more than doubled in 10 years.

To me the question is less one of "are these price increases justified?" and more one of "are these prices justified (period)?". In other words, I thought GW model prices were ludicrous before the recent price hike. Ludicrous prices are subject to inflation just the same as reasonable prices in that if GW was shafting us before, they eventually will need to raise prices if they want to continue to ream us.

For me personally, more evil than overpriced plastic models is disproportionately overpriced plastic models.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So;

1. A Lot of assertions, no citations or valid demonstration of basis or foundation.

2. Link to "proof" of earnings statement was bugged and didn't go to anything I could tell, so I'm not saying anything about his "source" that he did provide.

3. His rational is self-justifying, or more simply, he's using his assertions as proof of his assertions. This is a logical fallacy.

4. Claims personal experience or makes himself out to be an expert. This requires proof, or it is an appeal to authority fallacy.

5. False Dichotomy. Either GW is motivated by greed, or it isn't. Logical fallacy. GW can be greedy, and not motivated by it.

6. Very interesting article otherwise. If true, color me surprised.

Reddit in a nutshell my friend.

Heh.

Making a list of fallacies is not an effective refutation of a post. Dakka in a nutshell.

1. He specifically cites their earnings report which is publicly available
2. See #1 - or click the link (https://s19485.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Annual-report-with-cover-final-v.pdf)
3. No he didn't. He explained from what perspective he was viewing the information.
4. No he didn't. Each point is self contained and bears no reference to his expertise.
5. The world isn't black and white.

Ghool wrote:If GW is raking in a 33% margin before taxes, any business would be elated and ecstatic to make that kind of margin. When a third of your business is profit, the last thing you need to do is hike prices.

This ^^^

For comparison, a margin of 4% at the low end and 10% at the high end is normal for the UK supermarket industry, which is one of the most competitive markets of any kind, anywhere in the world. GW is many things, a successful business that represents a solid, long term value investment if you're into shares for one, but what it is not is some beneficent master that absorbs costs on behalf of its customers. They have a strong position and a very reliable customer base and they know it.

This is all pre-tax profits.

Alongside UK business tax of 19.9%, the report also mentions as yet undefined international taxes - such as import/export etc.

I see lots of talk about Brexit having some negative impact on and frankly it's ignorant. The biggest GW customer is the USA and the UK, they won't be impacted.

At most there will be 9% tariff of goods into Europe. This is highly unlikely as a no deal Brexit is still likely to be avoided, even if it means a temporary suspension of taxes and duties whilst a deal is finalised post leaving the EU.
In the case that it happens he government is preparing a tax subsidy package for business that might be affected by the tariffs.

I have no idea about business economics, business ethics or any of the other things pointed out in the article.
GW's prices have gone beyond what I'm willing to pay (I should add, probably...) that's pretty much the end of it for me.
Time will tell if enough other people feel the same way...

I'll say here what I said in the other thread regarding the price hikes. I'm familiar with Games-Workshop's dedication to its Nottingham based manufacturing. It's admirable, and I hope they keep it going forever. However that doesn't change the reality, that their product is barely affordable in relatively less developed economies such as where I live, and if lost sales due to a disorderly Brexit force prices to go any higher, the market here may very well collapse entirely. That would break my heart. If the only way to survive here after Brexit were to open up new manufacturing for regional markets, while keeping Nottingham open for the UK market, I think most people would understand their decision to do so, and give them the kudos they deserve for holding out for so long.

I think people need to be reminded that GW is a luxury product. It isn't food, it isn't fuel, it isn't a utility.

Feel free to walk away if you think it's too expensive. You don't need it for your livelihood.

 Ishagu wrote:
I think people need to be reminded that GW is a luxury product. It isn't food, it isn't fuel, it isn't a utility.

Feel free to walk away if you think it's too expensive. You don't need it for your livelihood.

The owner of my FLGS begs to differ.

 Ishagu wrote:
I think people need to be reminded that GW is a luxury product. It isn't food, it isn't fuel, it isn't a utility.

Feel free to walk away if you think it's too expensive. You don't need it for your livelihood.

No gak Sherlock....

Doesn’t mean it cannot be overpriced and not value for money like literally every other product you can buy with your hard earned cash, essential or otherwise.

 Ishagu wrote:
I think people need to be reminded that GW is a luxury product. It isn't food, it isn't fuel, it isn't a utility.

Feel free to walk away if you think it's too expensive. You don't need it for your livelihood.

Weirdly, as a consumer cyclical, GAW seems safer/more stable than quite a few consumer defensives.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I think people need to be reminded that GW is a luxury product. It isn't food, it isn't fuel, it isn't a utility.

Feel free to walk away if you think it's too expensive. You don't need it for your livelihood.

No gak Sherlock....

Doesn’t mean it cannot be overpriced and not value for money like literally every other product you can buy with your hard earned cash, essential or otherwise.

Of course it can be overpriced, but the thing everyone has to remember is that they don't have a right to access GW stuff, and that they can set any price they want for it.

There is no moral right to play GW games. If you don't like the prices, give your money to a different games producer.

Ultimately if GW are making healthy profits, they've probably put the right price on things - even if a few people aren't happy about it.

Why are both of you spouting this stuff like it's some kind of revelation? All of this has been said over and over again going back decades with the same arguments being made only coming out of different people's mouths.

BOTH of you have said the good ol' GW white knight chestnut of "GTFO if you do not like the prices". Oh, yowie wowie! You pair must be excellent for cultivating new blood for this hobby...

Despite all of that, everything you said RE: prices is true; it does not nullify the right for anyone to discuss the topic. Value for money and affordability are two different things. I can easily afford GW's single characters for example, do I find them value for money? Absolutely not.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Why are both of you spouting this stuff like it's some kind of revelation? All of this has been said over and over again going back decades with the same arguments being made only coming out of different people's mouths.

BOTH of you have said the good ol' GW white knight chestnut of "GTFO if you do not like the prices". Oh, yowie wowie! You pair must be excellent for cultivating new blood for this hobby...

Despite all of that, everything you said RE: prices is true; it does not nullify the right for anyone to discuss the topic. Value for money and affordability are two different things. I can easily afford GW's single characters for example, do I find them value for money? Absolutely not.

This +1
Nobody is saying GW is essential to anybody's life.

You aren't saying it, but in the past this discussion has always devolved to a point where people make claims as if they are entitled to play GW games, and get casts of their models by any means.

I'm just trying to head that off.

As I say, if you don't like the pricing you are perfectly entitled to that opinion. However basic economics suggests their pricing is appropriate for the demand of their product, based on how successful the company is.

As for international pricing, well compare the price of an American made Guitar between America and the UK. Honestly, I don't really understand why 40k is so popular in the USA when they make so many games domestically that can be accessed for far cheaper.

Fire warriors are an obnoxious $50 a box since they are a dual kit with 3 different weapon choices for each dude. If GW wants to raise prices to match production costs etc then they should limit the amount of extra garbage they force me to buy while reducing the bottleneck on actually useful bits. It hits you again on the secondary market since the price of kits going up will drive up the price of individual bits on ebay etc which you are forced to go to if you want moderately optimized or matching loadouts. Price increases on top of forcing people to buy extras they don't want or need is double dipping and makes it significantly harder to choke down. Bottlenecking useful bits so people are forced to rely on ebay for things like the Reaper chaincannon or CIBs only adds insult to injury.

SeanDrake wrote:
Meh what Drager said we’re not the US yet.

The Company's main priority is the company although the well being of staff is mentioned along with shareholders and the customers.

I just priced up the 129pp GC army from the June WD battle report and it comes too £790 for about 2 thirds of an army. That’s crazy forget stuff like ps5’s you could get a gaming PC for what a full army cost. Hell you could get a decent holiday for that it’s crazy money for mass produced plastic toy soldiers hobby or not.

GW run there products to produce a minimum margin of 70% so on the above army they make roughly £550 Profit and that is the bare minimum.

GW in no way NEED to put any prices up based just on there previous financial report, they WANT to put prices up because they are selling hand over fist even at the current very high prices and now want to milk the mug...loyal customers just like Kirby never left.

Honestly it’s fair enough if your willing to pay these prices it is your money, however the current price rise and the following price rises to come are indefensible. Unless your a GW shareholder or a Randian nutjob

GW make 17% profit on their goods, because they have to package, deliver, advertise and keep stores running. So your £790 is £134 in GW's back pocket. Whilst this is still a healthy margin, I work in the NHS and regularly deal with our suppliers, it is no where near the level of money grabbing that can be achieved on a captive market.

That said I don't think it's as black and white as the article makes out. Yes a lot of the cost of GW minis comes from UK manufacture and actually paying taxes. But GW don't need to increase prices the way they have. I feel like annual price rises in line with inflation would make it easier to swallow and more transparent but there will always be price rises.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Why are both of you spouting this stuff like it's some kind of revelation? All of this has been said over and over again going back decades with the same arguments being made only coming out of different people's mouths.

BOTH of you have said the good ol' GW white knight chestnut of "GTFO if you do not like the prices". Oh, yowie wowie! You pair must be excellent for cultivating new blood for this hobby...

Despite all of that, everything you said RE: prices is true; it does not nullify the right for anyone to discuss the topic. Value for money and affordability are two different things. I can easily afford GW's single characters for example, do I find them value for money? Absolutely not.

I'm saying what I'm saying because the attitude of many people posting is one of entitlement. It's as if 40k is a God given right and the high prices are an affront to their freedoms.

No need for the hyperbole from you.

All that in the reddit is true, its a lot of facts explaining a lot of things, much unrelated to the subject of how customers are treated and how GW approaches pricing. There is however ethical considerations. Capitalism by its nature is mutually agreeable exploitation. It is a system that makes some low forms of exploitation acceptable because it means "we" benefit. The problem is in believing that an "agreement" washes the hands of any ethical consideration and leaves it entirely on the person who accepted. This notion however is one originating from the people with the greatest possibility of liability and opportunity for abuse; popularizing the notion that the ethics of mutually agreeable exploitation begins and ends on whether someone "agrees" to a proposition. From a company's perspective its great having as little continued expectations on it; it allows them to draw a line in the sand and pretend the only thing they might have to do with their gains is enjoy the profit. The mind set however is a shield to being considered negligent in their ethics. The fact is people agree to bad deals all the time. Indentured servitude is an extreme bad deal, but shows that there is a continued ethical duty that doesn't end on whether a proposal is "agreeable" but on the "mutual benefit" of their enterprise.

Yes you can say just because they can, they should, in a pure capitalistic way. There is however an ethical consideration; while GW has no legal or financial duty its customers, the fact that the hobby on a whole is largely predicated on buying into a system, a game system, that GW fully controls the development, rules, manufacturing, distribution, marketing, and pricing ... In pure capitalism this is praised for business prowess but there is a heightened ethical consideration on inducing any level of dependence on customers. People accept being taken advantage of by companies more and more and its hand waved off with "if you don't like it don't buy..." but that isn't a panacea for disagreeable behavior and ethics when the power balance in the seller-customer relationship is so one sided.

When you buy into a system and become even a bit dependent, the present wrongs are compounded and amplified by your past purchasing. Yes you can walk away from GW, but that undermines the value of your hobby assets. GW can and we accept that they will intentionally render what you have obsolete not just by making better things, but by making what you have less worthwhile.

GW's prices at this point are pretty significantly disconnected from their products. When you look at their stockholder financial statements its clear from their profits derived from sales to independent retailers, that GW prices and sells their products to retailers at what would already be a retail price, the markup over the cost to produce, for most other companies. The retail buyer doesn't really even need to be considered at that point and GW is incredibly insulated from whatever customers might do.

 flandarz wrote:
It also bears mentioning that GW holds a virtual monopoly on wargaming. Like it or not, the vast majority of wargames played are 40k, so if you want to get into wargaming, you really only have one viable choice. Therefore, GW can "afford" to have higher prices. For most people, they'll be the only option around, unless they want to deal with a lack of opponents.

I don't get why more people don't host their own games. If I want to play a new game, I'll get the starter set and maybe a couple interesting units on both sides and set up a game, then walk my friends through how to play it. Hosting a non-GW game is pretty darn cheap, especially if it's something minis-agnostic.

When I game with Dakka Members, they usually have complete collections themselves, so all we need to do is study the rules we want to try. (And weather their comments about my unpainted miniatures.)

 Ishagu wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Why are both of you spouting this stuff like it's some kind of revelation? All of this has been said over and over again going back decades with the same arguments being made only coming out of different people's mouths.

BOTH of you have said the good ol' GW white knight chestnut of "GTFO if you do not like the prices". Oh, yowie wowie! You pair must be excellent for cultivating new blood for this hobby...

Despite all of that, everything you said RE: prices is true; it does not nullify the right for anyone to discuss the topic. Value for money and affordability are two different things. I can easily afford GW's single characters for example, do I find them value for money? Absolutely not.

I'm saying what I'm saying because the attitude of many people posting is one of entitlement. It's as if 40k is a God given right and the high prices are an affront to their freedoms.

No need for the hyperbole from you.

Utter rubbish, you act like even discussing GW's pricing shouldn't happen, no one feels entitled or even acts that way. It's simply become the default counter response to complaints of high prices.
And if I was going to feel entitled to something it wouldn't be plastic soldiers.

 Huron black heart wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Why are both of you spouting this stuff like it's some kind of revelation? All of this has been said over and over again going back decades with the same arguments being made only coming out of different people's mouths.

BOTH of you have said the good ol' GW white knight chestnut of "GTFO if you do not like the prices". Oh, yowie wowie! You pair must be excellent for cultivating new blood for this hobby...

Despite all of that, everything you said RE: prices is true; it does not nullify the right for anyone to discuss the topic. Value for money and affordability are two different things. I can easily afford GW's single characters for example, do I find them value for money? Absolutely not.

I'm saying what I'm saying because the attitude of many people posting is one of entitlement. It's as if 40k is a God given right and the high prices are an affront to their freedoms.

No need for the hyperbole from you.

Utter rubbish, you act like even discussing GW's pricing shouldn't happen, no one feels entitled or even acts that way. It's simply become the default counter response to complaints of high prices.
And if I was going to feel entitled to something it wouldn't be plastic soldiers.

So you speak for everyone on this forum? Very interesting

Semantics, I could reword my response but what would be the point

 Huron black heart wrote:
Semantics, I could reword my response but what would be the point

And now you know why he is on my ignore list.

 Ishagu wrote:

 Huron black heart wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

I'm saying what I'm saying because the attitude of many people posting is one of entitlement. It's as if 40k is a God given right and the high prices are an affront to their freedoms.

No need for the hyperbole from you.

Utter rubbish, you act like even discussing GW's pricing shouldn't happen, no one feels entitled or even acts that way. It's simply become the default counter response to complaints of high prices.
And if I was going to feel entitled to something it wouldn't be plastic soldiers.

So you speak for everyone on this forum? Very interesting

I don't think he ever asserted that.

GW can do what they want, but their pricing practices reflect their regard for their customers. I don't see anyone treating it as an affront to their freedoms, I see people disappointed that GW doesn't treat them with a certain respect.

The modern mantra is that capitalism is this optimization of shareholder wealth, that as long as people agree to what you put out profits are the single measure of legitimacy. However an underlying theme of capitalism and reason for its preeminence is that it serves the mutual benefit of all parties and society, directly or indirectly. GW isn't unique, what GW does and what some people just shrug at are common enough, but we all have different measures of mutual benefit.

Capitalism is mutual agreeable exploitation, done in little bits so as to not cross ethical lines. A little bit of poison, medicine to keep a society and economy healthy. However when you overemphasize agreeable exploitation over it being mutual, its just one sided and exploitative. Emphasis, it is a question of degrees.

To some there is no line and you can ask for anything in exchange for anything. but throughout history we have conditions that crossed the line despite people agreeing to what they were giving up and how they were being exploited. There are ethical lines and certain practices a company pursues raises their ethical burden.

GW has orchestrated a particularly ideal situation for a company, it controls all levels of how its products are made and sold short of making their own plastic from oil. At the same time they use their overwhelming position in the market place to get terms and conditions that otherwise wouldn't be possible exceeding what is more common. They sell a system, the enjoyment of which is built around the accumulation of their products which they can render obsolete without releasing anything that is an improvement. They can and do undermine the value of our collections to drive their sales. They are in the driver seat, and just like a anyone who offers someone a ride, even if there weren't legal duties, there is ethical duties that come with that. When people say "then don't buy" or "don't play" it is like saying just get out of the moving vehicle it "isn't the drivers fault they didn't stop." Even if it weren't their fault, its not respectful.

GW's market position creates a heightened dependence on them from us the customers and stakeholders and that makes it easier to cross lines. Dependence takes many forms, there is a social dependence when their game is at the center of people's social lives. There is a financial one, when these personal collections have a financial value that GW can tank to drive sales. GW's margins are at a level that when they sell to retailers, GW's margin is what most companies get when they sell to the end customer and doesn't really resemble a wholesale product. So GW is somewhat financially insulated from their customer's impact on their business.

The means though common and ideal for them, are questionable and the end result isn't to the benefit of customers. So it comes down to motivation. Why does GW keep raising its prices? Why is it so unconcerned with servicing a larger number of people? What is their reason and motivation? Motivation in this instance is everything, because if they aren't even considering the impact on us, then to what esteem do they hold us? -Not much of one. Their practices would lead you to believe you are a consumable and disposable utility to their business. You are a money battery and when you're spent they're done with you.

GW can do what they want to do and sell at whatever price they want to, but its dismissive to ignore that they set the stakes and they decide whether they want to respect you or just your money... and if they won't respect us, why should we respect them and why shouldn't we scrutinize their decisions and practices critically.

People are in this hobby for fun and for many talking about all this just isn't fun, so I can't blame them for wanting to ignore or dismiss it... but if people don't want to hear and they don't want to be confronted by opposing opinions they can walk away from this little box of text in this little ol' forum on the wide open internet... there are many ways to walk away but having this discussion, that only happens in forums like this and maybe between friends. So let it happen.

Hypothetically speaking, if a company is manufacturing at capacity and is continually selling out, then no matter how many people find the product to be overpriced the company could still probably charge more to the 'highest bidders'.

If the company increases their manufacturing, they may pass the point of saturation for the highest possible price and they may have to avoid raising prices again so they can shift the extra stock that is now produced.