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So since this is the thread for it. I think it's worth nothing that there are going to be significantly more stratagems in this new codex plus each supplement is going to have chapter specific stratagems and psychic powers.

Those two things were where marines slacked and now Ultramarines for instance are going to have 3 tables of powers. The vanilla codex has 12 additional stratagems over the current. I'm wondering how vanilla this codex will be, if it'll cover strictly just marines and then you need to pick up your specific supplement. Therefore it may have even more new stratagems if the chapter specific ones are removed and added to supplements

That will also help, but they will still remain glass "cannons". To be balanced, they need to boost marine damage above Eldar, because the average Eldar list has more sources of durability to lean on. That just seems kinda nuts to me.

Martel732 wrote:
I dont care about last edition. They died like flies in 7th, too. Quit comparing to an irrelevant edition. Look at how fast they bleed 8th ed points.

BA do craploads of damage. Once. Thats not tenable in 8th for what they cost. They die like gsc but arent costed like them.

No, Slamguinus does a bunch of damage. That's not the entirety of the Blood Angels army last I checked.

Martel732 wrote:
I dont care about last edition. They died like flies in 7th, too. Quit comparing to an irrelevant edition. Look at how fast they bleed 8th ed points.

BA do craploads of damage. Once. Thats not tenable in 8th for what they cost. They die like gsc but arent costed like them.

Martel, at this point, sell your marines and start an army you like... or stop playing. seriously the number one piece of advice people give anyone getting into the hobby is to like your army. you clearly do not LIKE your army. you hate on lore, you hate on the minis, on the fluff. I seriously reccomend finding an army more your speed. Perhaps Guard?

 fraser1191 wrote:
So since this is the thread for it. I think it's worth nothing that there are going to be significantly more stratagems in this new codex plus each supplement is going to have chapter specific stratagems and psychic powers.

Those two things were where marines slacked and now Ultramarines for instance are going to have 3 tables of powers. The vanilla codex has 12 additional stratagems over the current. I'm wondering how vanilla this codex will be, if it'll cover strictly just marines and then you need to pick up your specific supplement. Therefore it may have even more new stratagems if the chapter specific ones are removed and added to supplements

This assumes that Ultramarines taken via the supplement will be able to access the base book's stuff.

One of the more interesting aspects that we have seen in Age of Sigmar is 'locking' specific groups to "First Relic taken must be X" or "Casters have to take Y power instead of picking from the table".

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I dont care about last edition. They died like flies in 7th, too. Quit comparing to an irrelevant edition. Look at how fast they bleed 8th ed points.

BA do craploads of damage. Once. Thats not tenable in 8th for what they cost. They die like gsc but arent costed like them.

Martel, at this point, sell your marines and start an army you like... or stop playing. seriously the number one piece of advice people give anyone getting into the hobby is to like your army. you clearly do not LIKE your army. you hate on lore, you hate on the minis, on the fluff. I seriously reccomend finding an army more your speed. Perhaps Guard?

I don't think I've ever hated on the minis.

I don't really LIKE any of the armies in 8th.

But that doesn't really address the issue of marines being expensive soap bubbles in 8th. I don't really want to play against GW's idea of marines, either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I dont care about last edition. They died like flies in 7th, too. Quit comparing to an irrelevant edition. Look at how fast they bleed 8th ed points.

BA do craploads of damage. Once. Thats not tenable in 8th for what they cost. They die like gsc but arent costed like them.

No, Slamguinus does a bunch of damage. That's not the entirety of the Blood Angels army last I checked.

DC do plenty of damage. Even for their cost, its not bad. What IS bad is the opponent's response.

Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I dont care about last edition. They died like flies in 7th, too. Quit comparing to an irrelevant edition. Look at how fast they bleed 8th ed points.

BA do craploads of damage. Once. Thats not tenable in 8th for what they cost. They die like gsc but arent costed like them.

Martel, at this point, sell your marines and start an army you like... or stop playing. seriously the number one piece of advice people give anyone getting into the hobby is to like your army. you clearly do not LIKE your army. you hate on lore, you hate on the minis, on the fluff. I seriously reccomend finding an army more your speed. Perhaps Guard?

I don't think I've ever hated on the minis.

I don't really LIKE any of the armies in 8th.

But that doesn't really address the issue of marines being expensive soap bubbles in 8th. I don't really want to play against GW's idea of marines, either...

But you do want to show up in every thread on the forum to complain about how badly everything sucks.

Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I dont care about last edition. They died like flies in 7th, too. Quit comparing to an irrelevant edition. Look at how fast they bleed 8th ed points.

BA do craploads of damage. Once. Thats not tenable in 8th for what they cost. They die like gsc but arent costed like them.

Martel, at this point, sell your marines and start an army you like... or stop playing. seriously the number one piece of advice people give anyone getting into the hobby is to like your army. you clearly do not LIKE your army. you hate on lore, you hate on the minis, on the fluff. I seriously reccomend finding an army more your speed. Perhaps Guard?

I don't think I've ever hated on the minis.

I don't really LIKE any of the armies in 8th.

But that doesn't really address the issue of marines being expensive soap bubbles in 8th. I don't really want to play against GW's idea of marines, either.

In fairness I seem to recall you hating on Primaris stuff (I admit some are.. aquired tastes.) but fair eneugh, but ultimately you need to step back man, examine what you like about the hobby, what you don't like and if you find yourself not liking 8th edition itself looking into a differant game, be it horus heresy, kill team, or a game not produced by GW at all (in fact if you've not taken a look at games outside of GW's stable,. I would it can allow for intreasting prespective)

My only issue with the 2.0 codex model and further marine supplements is nothing I have really seen rule wise will truly fix most classic marine units, most of which are in a bad spot right now. I don't mind paying for another book if it really would make my army more viable but I don't know that is possible with out making changes to GW that will never make for business reasons.

That said I will give them a fair look when we see all the content and I will give GW credit for Apoc which has caught fire in my area.

Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I dont care about last edition. They died like flies in 7th, too. Quit comparing to an irrelevant edition. Look at how fast they bleed 8th ed points.

BA do craploads of damage. Once. Thats not tenable in 8th for what they cost. They die like gsc but arent costed like them.

Martel, at this point, sell your marines and start an army you like... or stop playing. seriously the number one piece of advice people give anyone getting into the hobby is to like your army. you clearly do not LIKE your army. you hate on lore, you hate on the minis, on the fluff. I seriously reccomend finding an army more your speed. Perhaps Guard?

I don't think I've ever hated on the minis.

I don't really LIKE any of the armies in 8th.

But that doesn't really address the issue of marines being expensive soap bubbles in 8th. I don't really want to play against GW's idea of marines, either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I dont care about last edition. They died like flies in 7th, too. Quit comparing to an irrelevant edition. Look at how fast they bleed 8th ed points.

BA do craploads of damage. Once. Thats not tenable in 8th for what they cost. They die like gsc but arent costed like them.

No, Slamguinus does a bunch of damage. That's not the entirety of the Blood Angels army last I checked.

DC do plenty of damage. Even for their cost, its not bad. What IS bad is the opponent's response.

I think you called Redemptor Dreads ugly at one point. Not much, but for posterity.

redemptor dreads are the ultimate in "aquired taste" I hated them at first, but they've grown on me since and I do like the mini now it's got a real beefy look to it

The redemptor is ok, though it pales in comparison to some of the forgeworld dreads they managed to design over the years.

The main things I don't like visually in the Primaris range so far are the tanks, especially the new hover rhino.

I prefer the clean lines to the old marines with overwrought details I can't paint anyway.

I like primaris vehicles better, too, because the whole WWI-vibe isn't doing it for me. Tanks were developed around 1916 and they had more or less given up on sponsons by the late 1930s. It was cute as a satire, but now it just needs to go away and become a little more science-fictiony instead of science-absurdity.

 Crimson wrote:
Anyway, Shock Assault is pretty damn nice bonus. I also really like the news that there will be some customisability in the Chapter Tactics.

They've done this before. I think it was 4th or 5th. You could pick your own chapter tactics which would monkey with your units. The one I remember was letting you give your veteran sergeants a Narthecium turning them into mini-apothecaries, but there were others. I just can't remember which edition it was to be able to look it up. Most of us like it, but I wouldn't expect it to stick around. This would be a great direction to go - build your own chapter tactics, build your own special characters, build your own vehicles (via kitbashing and an upgrade system similar to Fantasy Heroes (especially Bretonians) with an optional 100 points for Virtues, Vows, and wargear. But they only flirt with the idea, don't really invest in it enough to let it grow and stick around. So like your cousin's puppy during a visit, enjoy it when it's here, but don't get attached, it's not permanent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:

I very much like that Shock Assault works on being charged and on Heroic Intervention as well as on the charge.

Customizable chapter tactics might be huge, although obviously it depends on what's in the list.

I forgot to look it it works when being Heroically intervened into. Just imagine some marine standing around minding his own business, a daisy chain of charging and intervening and suddenly he's in close combat, but not charged... Great fence riding of the spirit of the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Compared to last edition, they AND Terminators, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, have become more tough vs a bigger variety of weapons compared to the weapons they're less durable to. No I don't care what you "feel", that's a straight fact.

Like the fact you didn't say the Index Imperium is under 200 pages?

Well let's move on from that for now, and deal with this latest "fact".

Assuming you weren't deliberately creating a tautology (a statement that is true by necessity or by virtue of its logical form) (i.e. Terminators are more durable vs the stuff they're more durable to compared to the stuff they're less durable to because they are... less durable to it.) It's not a fact. The S3 -0 lasgun is still the death of Terminators and a guard player gets 10 of them for about the same cost as one Terminator.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So since this is the thread for it. I think it's worth nothing that there are going to be significantly more stratagems in this new codex plus each supplement is going to have chapter specific stratagems and psychic powers.

Those two things were where marines slacked and now Ultramarines for instance are going to have 3 tables of powers. The vanilla codex has 12 additional stratagems over the current. I'm wondering how vanilla this codex will be, if it'll cover strictly just marines and then you need to pick up your specific supplement. Therefore it may have even more new stratagems if the chapter specific ones are removed and added to supplements

I heard Valrak talking about what was in the collectors edition, and the new reference card sets. I think it was high 30's almost 40 stratagems. Plus a few in the supplement I would assume - i.e. another card set with supplement objectives, psychic powers, supplement strategems etc. One of the things were 7 cards I forget what they were called... but it sounded like either Choose Your Own Chapter Tactic or a new Faith Point system for Space Marines maybe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
redemptor dreads are the ultimate in "aquired taste" I hated them at first, but they've grown on me since and I do like the mini now it's got a real beefy look to it

I've got a love/hate with the new War Walker thing. I love the holstered heavy bolter on the power fist side hip. Its both cool, tongue in cheek funny, and makes a little sense. I hope they allow him to use it as a 36 inch Pistol 3 or something. Also they fix all Dreads to be able to walk and chew heavy gum at the same time.

I've got a hate at the idea it's some sort of practically open topped Sentinel rip off. I don't mind the pilot isn't near death wired into a sarcophagus - but the armored war suit doesn't cover the pilot with armor I'm thinking about using some plastic film to represent some sort of field. bullet proof glass, plasteel/pick your Sci-Fi armor.

Breton wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Anyway, Shock Assault is pretty damn nice bonus. I also really like the news that there will be some customisability in the Chapter Tactics.

They've done this before. I think it was 4th or 5th. You could pick your own chapter tactics which would monkey with your units. The one I remember was letting you give your veteran sergeants a Narthecium turning them into mini-apothecaries, but there were others. I just can't remember which edition it was to be able to look it up. Most of us like it, but I wouldn't expect it to stick around. This would be a great direction to go - build your own chapter tactics, build your own special characters, build your own vehicles (via kitbashing and an upgrade system similar to Fantasy Heroes (especially Bretonians) with an optional 100 points for Virtues, Vows, and wargear. But they only flirt with the idea, don't really invest in it enough to let it grow and stick around. So like your cousin's puppy during a visit, enjoy it when it's here, but don't get attached, it's not permanent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:

I very much like that Shock Assault works on being charged and on Heroic Intervention as well as on the charge.

Customizable chapter tactics might be huge, although obviously it depends on what's in the list.

I forgot to look it it works when being Heroically intervened into. Just imagine some marine standing around minding his own business, a daisy chain of charging and intervening and suddenly he's in close combat, but not charged... Great fence riding of the spirit of the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Compared to last edition, they AND Terminators, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, have become more tough vs a bigger variety of weapons compared to the weapons they're less durable to. No I don't care what you "feel", that's a straight fact.

Like the fact you didn't say the Index Imperium is under 200 pages?

Well let's move on from that for now, and deal with this latest "fact".

Assuming you weren't deliberately creating a tautology (a statement that is true by necessity or by virtue of its logical form) (i.e. Terminators are more durable vs the stuff they're more durable to compared to the stuff they're less durable to because they are... less durable to it.) It's not a fact. The S3 -0 lasgun is still the death of Terminators and a guard player gets 10 of them for about the same cost as one Terminator.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So since this is the thread for it. I think it's worth nothing that there are going to be significantly more stratagems in this new codex plus each supplement is going to have chapter specific stratagems and psychic powers.

Those two things were where marines slacked and now Ultramarines for instance are going to have 3 tables of powers. The vanilla codex has 12 additional stratagems over the current. I'm wondering how vanilla this codex will be, if it'll cover strictly just marines and then you need to pick up your specific supplement. Therefore it may have even more new stratagems if the chapter specific ones are removed and added to supplements

I heard Valrak talking about what was in the collectors edition, and the new reference card sets. I think it was high 30's almost 40 stratagems. Plus a few in the supplement I would assume - i.e. another card set with supplement objectives, psychic powers, supplement strategems etc. One of the things were 7 cards I forget what they were called... but it sounded like either Choose Your Own Chapter Tactic or a new Faith Point system for Space Marines maybe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
redemptor dreads are the ultimate in "aquired taste" I hated them at first, but they've grown on me since and I do like the mini now it's got a real beefy look to it

I've got a love/hate with the new War Walker thing. I love the holstered heavy bolter on the power fist side hip. Its both cool, tongue in cheek funny, and makes a little sense. I hope they allow him to use it as a 36 inch Pistol 3 or something. Also they fix all Dreads to be able to walk and chew heavy gum at the same time.

I've got a hate at the idea it's some sort of practically open topped Sentinel rip off. I don't mind the pilot isn't near death wired into a sarcophagus - but the armored war suit doesn't cover the pilot with armor I'm thinking about using some plastic film to represent some sort of field. bullet proof glass, plasteel/pick your Sci-Fi armor.

Yeah I told you I managed to fit the Angels + special units for each chapter into a codex less than 200 pages. I won that argument.

ALSO I'm guessing you never bothered to ever do math on Terminators vs Lasguns ever? To say they're the death of Terminators is laughable and makes you look bad to be honest.

Agreed. 2+ armor is where they stop being scary. Lasguns ARE the death of gravis armor, though. Which is equally or even more problematic.

2+ armor suffers from a mere -1 clearing double damage, though. And it costs a lot. Not a viable solution.

Martel732 wrote:
Agreed. 2+ armor is where they stop being scary. Lasguns ARE the death of gravis armor, though. Which is equally or even more problematic.

2+ armor suffers from a mere -1 clearing double damage, though. And it costs a lot. Not a viable solution.

That's an issue with the wounding system being as is. Theoretically you could make them T6 and not lose much difference for weapons you'd point at them but I don't think that's the correct move.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Agreed. 2+ armor is where they stop being scary. Lasguns ARE the death of gravis armor, though. Which is equally or even more problematic.

2+ armor suffers from a mere -1 clearing double damage, though. And it costs a lot. Not a viable solution.

That's an issue with the wounding system being as is. Theoretically you could make them T6 and not lose much difference for weapons you'd point at them but I don't think that's the correct move.

Agreed. But it's still an issue. Gravis guys are expensive as feth and die to the cheapest weapon in terms of fielding price in the game readily. Failure.

Gravis should give an extra wound like the termie armour. At three wounds they would be fine.

 Crimson wrote:
Gravis should give an extra wound like the termie armour. At three wounds they would be fine.

Agreed, but do we think this is happening? But yes, gravis marines are costed like 3W models.

If we bumped up Astartes toughness on all infantry models across the board, it would answer a lot of the problems, and be fitting against the fluff. Intercessors are T5, Termies are T6, Custodes are T6/7 respectively. No more scary death by lasguns now if everything is a 6+ to wound. It forces the Guard player to bring something not a mortar for large squads of SMs. HBs and Autocannons become relevant over night.

I also want my car to run on dreams and starlight. And my mortgage to be paid by my sending in a monthly box of cookies. But alas...

GW didn't use their new S/T system to stretch out the values at all.

Martel732 wrote:
GW didn't use their new S/T system to stretch out the values at all.

Nope. Toughness is removed from the game in apoc. You have a saving throw which. Is taken on a D12 or a D6 depending on how much damage you take. Your standard space marine has a 6+ save (on a d12 is worse than a 3+ on a d6) and most of the time you are only ever taking the save ona d6. Power armor is garbage in apoc. The way the game works though units that get 5+ and 4+ saves become really good because getting +1 or +2 armor is very easy with cards/unit abilities.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
GW didn't use their new S/T system to stretch out the values at all.

Nope. Toughness is removed from the game in apoc. You have a saving throw which. Is taken on a D12 or a D6 depending on how much damage you take. Your standard space marine has a 6+ save (on a d12 is worse than a 3+ on a d6) and most of the time you are only ever taking the save ona d6.

This isn't right. Each "damage" is a blast marker which are placed one at a time onto a unit. If a unit currently has a small blast you upgrade it to a large blast. At the end of the turn you roll 1 save for each blast marker on a unit. So if you successfully wound 2 times they will roll 1 save. To stack up damage you basically have to double the wounds you are trying to do over and over again. A small blast is saved on a d12. A large blast is saved on a d6. A 4+ save is the best save in the game. There are no invulnerable saves. Most infantry like things have 7+ or worse saves so a large blast just auto wounds them.

Power armor is garbage in apoc. The way the game works though units that get 5+ and 4+ saves become really good because getting +1 or +2 armor is very easy with cards/unit abilities.

Which is why this is just flat out untrue. SM always get to save where many do not. And unit abilities and cards do not let you get 1+ or 2+ saves very easily. MAYBE a card will let 1 unit double the value of whatever it rolled on it's saves. Or always roll d12s even against large blasts. But thats about it. SM are very competitive in Apoc. Even the ones you wouldn't expect like BT and BA who have a melee focus.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/05/space-marines-preview-enhanced-chapter-tacticsgw-homepage-post-1-2/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kSpaceMarineChapterRulesAug05


So the new chapter tactics seem... Adeguate.

Those are more convincing.

Well Ultras are now the worst chapter by far. Thank all for being giant whiners.

RG get -1 to hit and count as being in cover? Ultras get +1 LD and can fall back and shoot at -1? LOL. Hard to believe they are even trying with this BS.

Ultras have bobby G. They are finally compensating for him.

CapRichard wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/05/space-marines-preview-enhanced-chapter-tacticsgw-homepage-post-1-2/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kSpaceMarineChapterRulesAug05


So the new chapter tactics seem... Adeguate.

That second part to the Black Templar Tactic was literally what I've been shoving down people's throats the whole time.

Martel732 wrote:
Ultras have bobby G. They are finally compensating for him.

They have over compensated. Have you seen the iron hands tactic? LOL