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The EU novels, on the other hand, posit the idea in several places that 'strong' Jedi are to be feared, as they almost always go too far and fall to the Dark side. The Thrawn trilogy in particular jumps on that
A line they should have stuck to. The idea that is presented early on (fairly sure that was from the Thrawn books) that some of the New Republic's members were worried about Luke being too powerful was a good hook. They took it too far as the books went on, with it gradually morphing into the idea that pretty much every Jedi sooner or later goes Dark, if only briefly, and that just got old.
What you just said, essentially, was "the fan fiction I adhere to" and then also argue people are using nostalgia to incorrectly adhere to something. Seems a bit odd. There was some good EU stuff to be sure but in relation to the canon it has zero bearing or weight at this point.
Edit: I'm not saying I agree with the disregard for it, but it also wasn't my choice either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 22:49:34
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
I stuck with it, partly because Rebels wasn't great in S1 either.
It's was essentially 15 odd episodes of waffle to set up a handful of decent ish episodes towards the end of the season.
I'll give S2 a go should it air in the UK (no sign yet, might debut in early Sept when the kids go back to school) in the hope it keeps on the same trajectory, but won't lose any sleep over its disappearance.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I think it is for the best that Resistance quietly dies, whimpering in a corner somewhere. I have watched it and there was maybe one or two episode that could be called okay, the rest are just bad (outside of cool ships, FO TIE/in, T-85 X-Wing and the pirates uglies) but with CW series coming up it would be left hanging in the breeze.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/15 02:39:28
Yodhrin wrote: I mean, that's always been the case outside of the films, which were specifically the saga of the Skywalkers and the Jedi. The Nightsisters were invented for an EU novel in the mid 90's.
What annoys me about the "kill the past" sentiment as it relates to the Jedi is that it's unnecessary. The old EU clearly established that the Jedi as they existed at the time of the Clone Wars was preceded by several other monastic orders of Force wielders also known as "Jedi" or something similar, and each incarnation was a different spin on that core idea. Even the idea of a group of not-Jedi who're not strictly light side or dark side but seekers of "true" balance within the individual rather than between two opposing factions has already been done in the EU during one of the Old Republic eras. There's absolutely nothing preventing Lucasiflm from establishing a new "version" of the Jedi through Rey et al, save for the combination of the fact many of the high heidyins at the company are firm devotees of the Cult of the New(their only real doctrine: old bad, new good, always and in every context, and anyone who has a different opinion is merely blinded by nostalgia) and too self-regarding to admit that most of the good bits of their new work is just recycling the better ideas from the old EU with the serial numbers filed off.
For however much that's true (and we can debate forever exactly how 'clearly' the EU established anything) their decision to jettison the EU has nothing to do with adopting or refining the ideas it had and distancing from its failures (of which the novel you referred to earlier, The Courtship of Princess Leia, is a good example) and everything to do with not wanting to beholden to the web of continuity Lucasfilm had been steadily tangling over decades of novels.
We saw this with George Lucas when the Old Republic, Clone Wars, and fall of the Jedi turned out to be nothing like what EU authors had alluded to. There were massive pushbacks against it even back then, when it was Lucas at the helm - and after the prequels were set in stone the authors bent over backwards trying to fit the pieces together. And that's despite the fact that the EU generally stayed away from the Old Republic and the Clone Wars precisely because George told them he didn't want them contradicting something he might write later. The Post-Endor timeline had no such restriction and the novel writers ran wild with it.
So after deciding they'd make a sequel movie, Lucasfilm had three choices:
- Attempt to keep the sequel trilogy in continuity with 30 years of novel plot points including the deaths of major characters, resurrection of others who died on-screen, and an Imperial Remnant and Republic Successor trading places in dominance every six years or so and risk hamstringing the narrative and alienating audiences who hadn't consumed any Star Wars media in a decade.
- George Lucas it, insist the Republic has been in power for 30 years between movies and let the authors figure it out - risking alienating the alienating the die hard fanbase.
- Acknowledge that they don't want to do either of the previous two options. Set the existing continuity aside in as graceful a way as you can, and be upfront with the fanbase that you intend to take another crack at the extended universe concept with a stricter eye towards forward looking continuity.
All three risk alienating people, different groups and different portions of the same groups, and all have a potential impact to the bottom line, but at the end of the day they chose the least impactful one: losing the portion of the EU fanbase that is just devoted enough to refuse to consume any of the new media but not so devoted that they'll consume it anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: I stuck with it, partly because Rebels wasn't great in S1 either.
It's was essentially 15 odd episodes of waffle to set up a handful of decent ish episodes towards the end of the season.
I'll give S2 a go should it air in the UK (no sign yet, might debut in early Sept when the kids go back to school) in the hope it keeps on the same trajectory, but won't lose any sleep over its disappearance.
Pretty much in agreement. Its not like Clone Wars and Rebels didn't have this problem in their first seasons, but it's worse than both of them in that respect and if anything you'd think with the same showrunners they'd know better.
I do like Poe's interacting with First Order troopers while neither faction has officially started fighting each other yet: "Easy fellas, I don't want to engage with you... Not engaging, not engaging... I'm just pointing my blaster at these explosives."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/15 01:11:55
Well if you can mange that then yes you will be fine, actually I don't think fine is the right word here...
Its a shame on how it turned out as they did go for a similar thing to Rebels, but in that instance Ezra being how he is excusable as he is just a kid. In Res though they recycled the character whilst forgetting that he is an adult pilot in the New Republic Navy so it doesn't work.
Polonius wrote: If the current SW trilogy has any point to make, it's probably that not all force users are Jedi, and that the Jedi order may not have been the best way to move forward.
This is something that Lucasfilm was clearly courting by the time of the acquisition what with the Night Sisters in Clone Wars. They clearly wanted to diversify the galaxy and part of that was by making more and varied practices around different interpretations of the Force.
Semi-canonical "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" (originally written as backup sequel for ANH) had non-Jedi Force user, Halla. Of course back then whole backstory was work-in-progress, Sith did not exist yet and Force was much weaker (Luke was hugely impressed when Halla could barely float a tray).
In my opinion, TFA should have introduced Rey's character akin the lines of Halla: a hedge wizard who demonstrates some minor abilities which she uses for survival. You could set it up with scenes where some ruffians threaten her and say how they're not scared of her 'tricks'. Maybe even give her like a talisman which she thinks is the source or focus of her abilities, then have Kylo Ren (or someone) destroy it, forcing her to unleash her Force potential without a crutch.
Brackett's draft for ESB featured Luke's hidden sister, Nellith. Since Lucas had outlined the basic plot for Brackett, it seems probable that too was Lucas' original idea.
What you just said, essentially, was "the fan fiction I adhere to" and then also argue people are using nostalgia to incorrectly adhere to something. Seems a bit odd. There was some good EU stuff to be sure but in relation to the canon it has zero bearing or weight at this point.
Edit: I'm not saying I agree with the disregard for it, but it also wasn't my choice either.
What on earth are you on about? Firstly, dismissing the EU as "fan fiction" is just childish. Lucas might have had no time for it, but he was happy to take the money and allow it to exist, so neither he nor Disney can get pissy when people consider it a valid source of content, especially given despite its many many flops, at its best it's produced material that pisses on a lot of what both of them have done.
Secondly, you appear to have completely misunderstood my actual point; nobody is using "nostalgia to incorrectly adhere" to anything, my argument is that the EU has already shown it's possible to create versions of the Jedi that differ greatly from the Saga versions, without having to entirely discard the idea of the Jedi to replace it with something entirely new, which is where the Sequels seem to be going, because the people in charge cannot stomach the idea they might be thought of as anything other than 100% original and new even as they reheat old EU ideas in all but name.
Yodhrin wrote: I mean, that's always been the case outside of the films, which were specifically the saga of the Skywalkers and the Jedi. The Nightsisters were invented for an EU novel in the mid 90's.
What annoys me about the "kill the past" sentiment as it relates to the Jedi is that it's unnecessary. The old EU clearly established that the Jedi as they existed at the time of the Clone Wars was preceded by several other monastic orders of Force wielders also known as "Jedi" or something similar, and each incarnation was a different spin on that core idea. Even the idea of a group of not-Jedi who're not strictly light side or dark side but seekers of "true" balance within the individual rather than between two opposing factions has already been done in the EU during one of the Old Republic eras. There's absolutely nothing preventing Lucasiflm from establishing a new "version" of the Jedi through Rey et al, save for the combination of the fact many of the high heidyins at the company are firm devotees of the Cult of the New(their only real doctrine: old bad, new good, always and in every context, and anyone who has a different opinion is merely blinded by nostalgia) and too self-regarding to admit that most of the good bits of their new work is just recycling the better ideas from the old EU with the serial numbers filed off.
For however much that's true (and we can debate forever exactly how 'clearly' the EU established anything) their decision to jettison the EU has nothing to do with adopting or refining the ideas it had and distancing from its failures (of which the novel you referred to earlier, The Courtship of Princess Leia, is a good example) and everything to do with not wanting to beholden to the web of continuity Lucasfilm had been steadily tangling over decades of novels.
We saw this with George Lucas when the Old Republic, Clone Wars, and fall of the Jedi turned out to be nothing like what EU authors had alluded to. There were massive pushbacks against it even back then, when it was Lucas at the helm - and after the prequels were set in stone the authors bent over backwards trying to fit the pieces together. And that's despite the fact that the EU generally stayed away from the Old Republic and the Clone Wars precisely because George told them he didn't want them contradicting something he might write later. The Post-Endor timeline had no such restriction and the novel writers ran wild with it.
So after deciding they'd make a sequel movie, Lucasfilm had three choices:
- Attempt to keep the sequel trilogy in continuity with 30 years of novel plot points including the deaths of major characters, resurrection of others who died on-screen, and an Imperial Remnant and Republic Successor trading places in dominance every six years or so and risk hamstringing the narrative and alienating audiences who hadn't consumed any Star Wars media in a decade.
- George Lucas it, insist the Republic has been in power for 30 years between movies and let the authors figure it out - risking alienating the alienating the die hard fanbase.
- Acknowledge that they don't want to do either of the previous two options. Set the existing continuity aside in as graceful a way as you can, and be upfront with the fanbase that you intend to take another crack at the extended universe concept with a stricter eye towards forward looking continuity.
All three risk alienating people, different groups and different portions of the same groups, and all have a potential impact to the bottom line, but at the end of the day they chose the least impactful one: losing the portion of the EU fanbase that is just devoted enough to refuse to consume any of the new media but not so devoted that they'll consume it anyway.
See above, that's not actually the point I'm making. I don't actually blame them for striking the EU, they had little other choice if they were going to make sequels that didn't just follow along with them. The trouble I have with their approach is that the folks at Lucasfilm are just disingenuous and hypocritical about the whole thing. They disdain a lot of the story elements from the EU when it suits them, despite a lot of them being better ideas than those they went with, because they can't stomach the idea that they might be seen as needing to dip into the past content for ideas - afterall, we should kill the past, nostalgia is for losers etc - but they will take those ideas anyway when it suits them with a quick coat of paint and try to claim that they are new.
What they seem to be aiming towards with Rey and a replacement for the Jedi being a case in point - the actual idea is not a new one, it's been done several times in the EU, and those instances also demonstrated you can do it without even having to discard the fundamental idea of Jedi. So there's no actual reason they have to do the speculated "Jedi are gone now, Rey's made the new and betterer Order of Skywalkers instead 'cos Jedi are, like, totes old boomer garbo who can't change and grow" other than their egos.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
I'm not sure what's so 'hypocritical' about Disney's approach. They said from the start that they didn't want to be beholden to the EU, so would ditch most of it while retaining elements they wanted to keep. And that's exactly what they've done.
While I was sorry to see it all go, that was still miles better than Lucas's approach of letting it be treated as canon while retaining the right to change or ignore it whenever he felt like it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/15 11:30:12
The EU was long dead for me by the time Disney killed it. The Vong just made a mess of things, particularly as their tech influenced the world after the invasion.
My kneejerk reaction for killing off EU was nerd rage, but when I thought about it a bit more, I was like 'meh'. If they wanted new movies to show old characters in setting understandable to viewer not familiar with SWEU, they pretty much had to dispense it.
Yodhrin wrote: See above, that's not actually the point I'm making. I don't actually blame them for striking the EU, they had little other choice if they were going to make sequels that didn't just follow along with them. The trouble I have with their approach is that the folks at Lucasfilm are just disingenuous and hypocritical about the whole thing. They disdain a lot of the story elements from the EU when it suits them, despite a lot of them being better ideas than those they went with, because they can't stomach the idea that they might be seen as needing to dip into the past content for ideas - afterall, we should kill the past, nostalgia is for losers etc - but they will take those ideas anyway when it suits them with a quick coat of paint and try to claim that they are new.
Again, you keep using the 'kill the past' line as though it were some kind of coda to the Disney films when it isn't. It isn't even that for TLJ (that Honor would go to Yoda's speach about passing on what you've learned including through failure). And through it you're attributing malice to Disney's behavior where it doesn't exist.
Let's be clear here: Lucasfilm didn't bring back the Tie Defender because they're secretly creatively bankrupt and can't think of a new set of wings to strap on the ball cockpit, they didn't reintroduce Thrawn to viewers in Rebels and give Zahn a novel series because they learned from the past and want to share the shining gems and discard the embarrassing lumps (like Zorba the Hutt, or Moffrences), they did it precisely because those things captured the interest of fans over the decades and are therefore safe bets to sell the product.
If you're going to criticize Disney (and I think it's unfair to go after Disney directly since they are generally hands-off with Lucasfilm and Marvel until things go off the rails) do so for their calousness and desperation for money - assuming they do anything out of contempt for anyone or anything you care about is vanity.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunarSol wrote: The EU was long dead for me by the time Disney killed it. The Vong just made a mess of things, particularly as their tech influenced the world after the invasion.
I rather liked Legacy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/15 15:00:24
LunarSol wrote: The EU was long dead for me by the time Disney killed it. The Vong just made a mess of things, particularly as their tech influenced the world after the invasion.
I rather liked Legacy.
I think the overall arc was strong, but it was hard for me to get into given how much change the Vong era inserted into the universe that I really didn't have any interest in or love for. This was also about the time when I started to feel like the OT characters had had earned some peace and would have preferred to see some fresh characters. I think I would have felt very different if it had come out in '99 instead of after 7 years of the Vong and prequels.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/15 15:21:18
LunarSol wrote: I think the overall arc was strong, but it was hard for me to get into given how much change the Vong era inserted into the universe that I really didn't have any interest in or love for. This was also about the time when I started to feel like the OT characters had had earned some peace and would have preferred to see some fresh characters. I think I would have felt very different if it had come out in '99 instead of after 7 years of the Vong and prequels.
Thats what I liked about it. No OT characters in site save for the occasional briefest force ghost cameo because everyone had died a long time ago.
LunarSol wrote: I think the overall arc was strong, but it was hard for me to get into given how much change the Vong era inserted into the universe that I really didn't have any interest in or love for. This was also about the time when I started to feel like the OT characters had had earned some peace and would have preferred to see some fresh characters. I think I would have felt very different if it had come out in '99 instead of after 7 years of the Vong and prequels.
Thats what I liked about it. No OT characters in site save for the occasional briefest force ghost cameo because everyone had died a long time ago.
I mean except R2.
Oh, I was thinking Legacy of the Force. I really had trouble with the Legacy comic. Way too much Vong tech, particularly with Krayt. I've never really cared for SW comics in general; they always seem to be the source of some of the worst ideas in the cannon. I've heard plenty of people that like Legacy though, so its probably just me being stubborn (haven't read the recent Marvel stuff for largely the same reason)
This isn't complicated nor does it require name calling. The EU, for better or worse, has zero bearing or weight at this point so using it like it has either when arguing how things should be isn't useful. I get not being happy that content someone holds dear isn't important to those who actually own a property, just ask Star Trek fans about that, but that doesn't change that, for good or ill, the EU has officially been denied and discarded.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
ingtaer wrote: Drink heavily before hand... This next (last) season doesn't look too bad but the first was dire. Really dire.
Frankly, it's felt like all of the cartoons have been that way.
I may have just lowered my expectations but even Rebels season 1 was not that bad a bit uneven in places but with some memorable moments and mostly coherent. I just though a lot of the flack it took was because it was not CW but considering I think a lot of CW is trash or style over substance filler I am probably in the minority.
Oh and resistance was pretty dire somewhere between xmas special and caravan of courage right around TLJ.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/15 19:48:31
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
Yodhrin wrote: See above, that's not actually the point I'm making. I don't actually blame them for striking the EU, they had little other choice if they were going to make sequels that didn't just follow along with them. The trouble I have with their approach is that the folks at Lucasfilm are just disingenuous and hypocritical about the whole thing. They disdain a lot of the story elements from the EU when it suits them, despite a lot of them being better ideas than those they went with, because they can't stomach the idea that they might be seen as needing to dip into the past content for ideas - afterall, we should kill the past, nostalgia is for losers etc - but they will take those ideas anyway when it suits them with a quick coat of paint and try to claim that they are new.
Again, you keep using the 'kill the past' line as though it were some kind of coda to the Disney films when it isn't. It isn't even that for TLJ (that Honor would go to Yoda's speach about passing on what you've learned including through failure). And through it you're attributing malice to Disney's behavior where it doesn't exist.
Let's be clear here: Lucasfilm didn't bring back the Tie Defender because they're secretly creatively bankrupt and can't think of a new set of wings to strap on the ball cockpit, they didn't reintroduce Thrawn to viewers in Rebels and give Zahn a novel series because they learned from the past and want to share the shining gems and discard the embarrassing lumps (like Zorba the Hutt, or Moffrences), they did it precisely because those things captured the interest of fans over the decades and are therefore safe bets to sell the product.
If you're going to criticize Disney (and I think it's unfair to go after Disney directly since they are generally hands-off with Lucasfilm and Marvel until things go off the rails) do so for their calousness and desperation for money - assuming they do anything out of contempt for anyone or anything you care about is vanity.
I think I see the problem here, you seem to be arguing with someone else entirely. Have a wee read back through the posts in this chain, and note the total absence of the word "Disney" anywhere.
As for the rest, if you can't discuss something without constantly trying to attribute arguments and emotional motivations to people they haven't actually expressed, there's little point in continuing to make arguments you'll only ignore - we disagree, and I'll leave it at that.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
I'm not anymore. I've wanted a Ewan McGregor Obi-wan MOVIE since the spin-off SW movies were announce way back before Rogue One.
The fact that Disney (and a lot of media in general) are moving away from traditional movie theater events makes me sad.
If this gets the green light, I will of course want to see it and own it on DVD if that's ever a possibility, but it just won't feel the same.
I was kinda hoping that the Obi-wan FILM was going to:
A) Tie into the Crime underworld set up in Solo
B) Have another Darth Maul cameo (but Maul and Obi-wan not quite meeting face to face since that happens later in Rebels)
and
C) Have a Boba Fett cameo
Basically Obi-Wan would be a Clint Eastwood style "man with no name" in the background protecting Luke on Tattooine, but gets involved in some exploits where he has to take down some Crime lord (not Maul or Jabba) making trouble. Fett could be working for said Crime Lord.
Would have been a lot of fan service, sure, but it could have worked. McGregor is one of the best parts of the Prequels and this could have been the chance to show Boba as more than a punching bag.
