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 Xenomancers wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

bort wrote:
There’s also 2(?) AM tanks that can take plasma, though 1 again has its own special rule to not insta die. And Chaos did for the exploit of killing their own Rhinos to charge out of until that loophole was FAQed shut.

Yeah pretty funny huh? A POS lemonruss has plasma vents but the brand new Repulsor executioner doesn't? Whilst being twice the size and much more advanced. Stuff like this I just can't reconcile while considering the rules team is not just blatantly not out to make marines suck compared to Astra.

The macro plasma only does 1 MW on a 1. So I think it's on par with tanks designed centuries ago

Rules wise no - cause a lemon commander can reroll it's own 1's. Executioner can't.

But that's not a feature of the tank - that's a feature of the character inside the tank. No different to having the appropriate re-roll aura covering the Repulsor.

After all, the same tank being played as a non-commander version suffers the same* ill effects as the Repulsor does.

* - I don't have either datasheet to hand, but I'm assuming MW on a 1, here.

 bullyboy wrote:
One of the biggest problems is Guilleman. He skews so much of marine stuff that it's pointed in such a way to be mostly useless in other chapters. I just don't think GW can see this.

Other than the rest of the Marine line not being priced based on what Gman does to Ultramarines, this is a great point.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
One of the biggest problems is Guilleman. He skews so much of marine stuff that it's pointed in such a way to be mostly useless in other chapters. I just don't think GW can see this.

More or less I feel this is a myth. Gman has his own cost and isn't influencing anything in terms of cost on other models - those models are just overcosted on their own merits because GW sucks. Just look at this nerf to the executioner. It was obviously overcosted already. Indisputably so. If he is affecting other units that is a poor balancing decision realistically he is overcosted at 400 points and is more than covering the cost of his aura at the 2000 points level. At some point at like 3000 points plus he is extremely OP but the game is really meant to be played at 2000. At 2000 hes 1/5 of your army. However - fine with me. Redesign his rules and reduce the cost of all marine units. I'm more than happy to run Calgar and a lt if it didn't suck so hard. Basically the only way I can compete is to reroll wounds on buckets of dice right now. My army dies so fast I have to keep up the lethality.

I already prefer to run Calgar and a LT. They can ride in transports. They can be healed by Apothecaries. They're not 12 feet tall.

Also the wound reroll is the stronger reroll of the two. That's the real benefit to Guilliman. He allows failed wound not 1 to wound rerolls. They should have split the rerolls up better. Chapter Master All failed Hits, Chaplain, All Failed Wounds. Captain, 1's to hit, Lieutenant 1''s to wound.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
Well, there goes the brief moments of joy I felt when using two executioners at 2K games.

Even though target saturation is key to using high value unit, the points increase makes bringing even a single executioner a daunting challenge.
Let alone using two or more in the 2K list.

I might be biased, but it seems GW is strangely cautious about giving Space Marines anything that isn't complete garbage.

Fixed that for you.

Actually what probably happened is all the Primaris-only players ran out to buy two of the things because Primaris have [censored] for anti-armor and GW went "woah; look at those sales numbers, we must have under-priced this thing".

They made a flying abrams tank...how are you not expecting to sell tons of these? I bought 2 on release thinking it was overcosted. Don't care. Flying abrams is cool.

It is literally a Repulsor with 50% more turret. It does look better, but not that much better that everyone calling it a Repulsive went out and bought two.

I did but I am the only one at my shop that has any.

I bought two. And I have two of the first one. But then I usually run two of the transport tanks (i.e. Land Raiders) if I run any at all.


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Reemule wrote:
I've not bought yet. Wanted to see what other goodies come out in the new marine dex.

Chances are I'll go from buying 2, to buying a regular repulsor and buying a third party turret to swap in and out.

Magnetize the top plate - meaning don't glue on the top plate yet.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:


It is a myth.

A captain and lieutenant have been mathematically proven to be just as useful as Gman, but with more points for other crap.

Check your math. A Captain and a Lieutenant only allow rerolls on 1's. Gman rerolls all failed. Which - in addition to being more often - also works after Modifiers. Or doesn't. Maybe they changed it again. It's getting hard to keep up.


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 Ishagu wrote:
I actually play the game at the highest level regularly with multiple factions). More people need to step back and consider the hobby this way.

What makes you think this tournament level of yours is the highest? Its a different level, I'll give you that. I don't think it's higher or lower, though. The people who work a friendly game army into something effective against another friendly game level army are potentially just as skilled as the tournament player who whips out a calculator to mathhammer their way into a min/max list.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Reemule wrote:
The Newman, he is speaking on a point per point basis. A Cap and LT provide roughly 1/2 as much use, but cost far less than 1/2 of Gman's points.

That might have been what he meant, but it's definitely not what he said. He said they were just as good and left more points for other stuff, not that they're as good for the points and 200 points of other stuff balances it out overall.

And to be fair I didn't even disagree about whether g-man was worth the points over the Cap'n / Leiutenant combo.

You still have to get 2 HQs with Gman if you want a batallion and the hq's really suck. It is more tax.

Chronus and Telion are HQ's. And two of the cheapest (assuming you were already going to get some tanks Chronus could ride around in.


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 Ishagu wrote:
Yeah people forget that by the time you bring Guilliman in you've typically spent near 600 points on three character and made your list very static on top.

I should mention that at the moment Astartes don't really have strats on the same level as some of the recent books.

They don't have Strats on the same level in the SAME book. Astartes already struggle to generate CP, and have to spend one for the detachment, one per Intercessor squad they want to make Veteran, and then a CP to use the stratagem that requires a Veteran Intercessor. Guard, already swimming in CP, spend 1 to get the detachment, and 2 to use the stratagem. I'd take Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company over Indomitus Crusaders every day of the week, and at least twice on 2,000 Point Sunday.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

Find it hard to believe hell blasters doesn't work. They are one of the highest damage output units in the game with their weakness being defense. A 4++ save is an amazing defensive stat. You have to go all in on infantry which isn't much fun but it is IMO the best you can do with marines. Gman is 400 points and the things hes buffing are made of glass. If you build your army right with just high str weapons being your damage dealers. The only advnatage gman gives over azreal is reroll 2's to wound. You really think that is worth 400 points?

Gman rerolls all failed wounds, not just 2's - sometimes not even 2's so that value scales - even more so depending on which side of the reroll before/after modifiers GW just flipped to. (Azrael doesn't reroll any wounds?) And the price difference between them isn't 400 points, adding a basic LT - it's close to 120 or so. Azrael's bubble only works on DA infantry and DA bikers, while GMan's is everything Ultramarine.

So Azrael can't even bubble the Repulsors anyway. Not sure why he was brought up. He did get a bit of a boost with the squatting of Templates and the boost to combi'weapons though. The 1 CP when Calgar gives 2 is a bit of a screw job. Calgar Grimnar, and Azrael were supposed to be equally strategic, while Dante was supposed to be less strategic (for some reason) but a better Leader which is why Strategy Rating 6 Ld 10 Calgar and Strategy Rating 6 Ld 10 Azrael or Grimnar, I forget by now, gave Strategy Rating 5 Ld 5 Dante overall command of the War for Armageddon.

GMan bonus is not when firing at something with a lower T value, it's when firing at something that has an equal or greater T value. It's like Doom on every enemy target being fired upon within his aura. There is no way people can seriously talk about how powerful Doom is, and then simply dismiss the effects of Gman or state that a Capt/Lt combo is better. In addition, with Doom, the Farseer has to get within 24" of the target, not so with the Gman bubble, screening will not prevent that.

So this can be taken with DW now?

bort wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
I wouldn't say it's guaranteed that you need to rely on your opponent messing up unless you're also assuming that you're not very good.

I’m not super good, but come on, if plasma inceptors are too easily screened out of 18” to be considered viable, that same opponent can easily keep prime targets 21” away from the hellblasters already on the table. Or just kill them.

The first part of your conclusion statement isn't true, so I can't see why the second part wouldn't also be incorrect.

 bullyboy wrote:
GMan bonus is not when firing at something with a lower T value, it's when firing at something that has an equal or greater T value. It's like Doom on every enemy target being fired upon within his aura. There is no way people can seriously talk about how powerful Doom is, and then simply dismiss the effects of Gman or state that a Capt/Lt combo is better. In addition, with Doom, the Farseer has to get within 24" of the target, not so with the Gman bubble, screening will not prevent that.

I think you're not talking to me - but the other people? But I can see where Cap/Lt is "better" than G-Man. For my preferences Calgar/LT is "better" I know Grandpappy Smurf's bubble is more potent, but with other considerations I find PapaSmurt/LT to be preferable - transports, medics, cost.


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Lemondish wrote:

bort wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
I wouldn't say it's guaranteed that you need to rely on your opponent messing up unless you're also assuming that you're not very good.

I’m not super good, but come on, if plasma inceptors are too easily screened out of 18” to be considered viable, that same opponent can easily keep prime targets 21” away from the hellblasters already on the table. Or just kill them.

The first part of your conclusion statement isn't true, so I can't see why the second part wouldn't also be incorrect.

Even IF the first part is true, 3 inches in Diameter adds a ton of area to deny. πR² says an 18 inch circle is 254.34 square inches in area. a 21 inch circle is 346.185 square inches in area. A 3 man Inceptor Squad on 40mm bases (R=.7874) is about 6 square inches by the math, probably closer to 8-10 on the reality. Adding 3 inches to the radius of your needed Area Denial added about 10x as much area as what you're trying to deny takes up.

I’m not clear why that is suddenly controversial. You don’t see many lists with plasma inceptors or other jump plasma do you? Most opponents keep their knight/prime target screened if you have a reserve bomb. The marine thread alone has several posts advising against using them for this very reason. Any unit anywhere 9”-18” away from the knight keeps a reserve unit from dropping within 18” range. Between say a table edge in back and the rest of the army in front, lots of armies can make that denial area for a few turns.

To get back to hellblasters, this should also be clear here. You can see where the hellblaster unit is deployed (or where it could be deployed). You know their double tap threat range is 21”. Deployment zones are 18”+ apart, so even if those hellblasters are right on the line you only need to deploy 3” back and you’re out of that range for a turn you can use to kill them. Or, if they’re deployed out of sight, then still, you know where they are and can choose yourself whether to enter that threat range or not.

I’m not suggesting here that these units will have nothing to shoot or can’t single shot something. But you don’t take expensive plasma inceptors to shoot a screen and hellblasters firing single shots are outclassed and often outranged by several other AT options.

bort wrote:
I’m not clear why that is suddenly controversial.

Me either, I just noticed people underestimating the effect of moving from an 18 inch circle to a 21 inch circle.

GW really should have left the cost and left it vanilla only. Probably would have sold more.

Breton wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
GMan bonus is not when firing at something with a lower T value, it's when firing at something that has an equal or greater T value. It's like Doom on every enemy target being fired upon within his aura. There is no way people can seriously talk about how powerful Doom is, and then simply dismiss the effects of Gman or state that a Capt/Lt combo is better. In addition, with Doom, the Farseer has to get within 24" of the target, not so with the Gman bubble, screening will not prevent that.

I think you're not talking to me - but the other people? But I can see where Cap/Lt is "better" than G-Man. For my preferences Calgar/LT is "better" I know Grandpappy Smurf's bubble is more potent, but with other considerations I find PapaSmurt/LT to be preferable - transports, medics, cost.


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Lemondish wrote:

bort wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
I wouldn't say it's guaranteed that you need to rely on your opponent messing up unless you're also assuming that you're not very good.

I’m not super good, but come on, if plasma inceptors are too easily screened out of 18” to be considered viable, that same opponent can easily keep prime targets 21” away from the hellblasters already on the table. Or just kill them.

The first part of your conclusion statement isn't true, so I can't see why the second part wouldn't also be incorrect.

Even IF the first part is true, 3 inches in Diameter adds a ton of area to deny. πR² says an 18 inch circle is 254.34 square inches in area. a 21 inch circle is 346.185 square inches in area. A 3 man Inceptor Squad on 40mm bases (R=.7874) is about 6 square inches by the math, probably closer to 8-10 on the reality. Adding 3 inches to the radius of your needed Area Denial added about 10x as much area as what you're trying to deny takes up.

The fact you listed them as an Apothecary target as a point of value is hilarious. If they're killed in one go around what are you gonna do? Nothing!

bort wrote:
I’m not clear why that is suddenly controversial. You don’t see many lists with plasma inceptors or other jump plasma do you? Most opponents keep their knight/prime target screened if you have a reserve bomb. The marine thread alone has several posts advising against using them for this very reason. Any unit anywhere 9”-18” away from the knight keeps a reserve unit from dropping within 18” range. Between say a table edge in back and the rest of the army in front, lots of armies can make that denial area for a few turns.

To get back to hellblasters, this should also be clear here. You can see where the hellblaster unit is deployed (or where it could be deployed). You know their double tap threat range is 21”. Deployment zones are 18”+ apart, so even if those hellblasters are right on the line you only need to deploy 3” back and you’re out of that range for a turn you can use to kill them. Or, if they’re deployed out of sight, then still, you know where they are and can choose yourself whether to enter that threat range or not.

I’m not suggesting here that these units will have nothing to shoot or can’t single shot something. But you don’t take expensive plasma inceptors to shoot a screen and hellblasters firing single shots are outclassed and often outranged by several other AT options.

I see your issue here.

You need better screen clearing and redundancy in your AT options. Don't expect either unit to do the job for you all on their own without support.

That Knight isn't doing its job all in its own after all.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The fact you listed them as an Apothecary target as a point of value is hilarious. If they're killed in one go around what are you gonna do? Nothing!

If my character with all the protections characters get is killed in one round, what will I do? Probably try and play better than you do the next time? Remember the Apothecary can heal other stuff, but not Guilliman which makes Calgar/LT a better synergy with an Apothecary than Guilliman?

Breton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The fact you listed them as an Apothecary target as a point of value is hilarious. If they're killed in one go around what are you gonna do? Nothing!

If my character with all the protections characters get is killed in one round, what will I do? Probably try and play better than you do the next time? Remember the Apothecary can heal other stuff, but not Guilliman which makes Calgar/LT a better synergy with an Apothecary than Guilliman?

yeah man but if you took an apothary in the first place you didn't take one of the pre-approved meta lists and you should feel bad for not playing the same way some person on the internet tells you too!