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 mjl7atlas wrote:
Any reason why the ground assets went oop? Are they coming back?

Dunno if they're coming back, but they were outsourced and made in China rather than made by GW in the UK, with those sorts of kits GW are more likely just to do a run and sell out than keeping stock.


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 Krinsath wrote:

 Sabotage! wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
This game cost more to produce each quarter than Necromunda, Blood Bowl and LOTR combined.

How so? I’m not trying to be antagonistic, I am genuinely curious. Is it because all of the associated parts like the bases and the different scale/ more than one sprue per kit?

I will say the books are pretty high quality in feel compared to the Necromunda stuff I have owned.

I suspect it's inferred from sprue count for each system; cost per shot is rather trivial so the bulk of a line's cost is going to come from design and tool-cutting. More tools = more cost.

Blood Bowl and Necromunda average a sprue per quarter released, barring unusual splashes like the big terrain sprues for Necromunda. The gang and team boxes are essentially just a double sprue pack like the "core" AI fighter boxes. This also doesn't account for times when the "quarterly" release is simply a repack of previously-released sprues such as the BB mixed teams up for pre-order or the Enforcer Subjugators being sold on their own.

Aeronautica in comparison has quite a lot of tools. The initial release I believe had 10 tools which, even accounting for it getting nothing between November and June, is a goodly chunk. The latest release has 6 new tools by my count which gives them 16 total. Across two years, Blood Bowl and Necromunda would expect to see about that many sprues and AI has gotten it in less than a year. While it may be another year before they add in the next grouping, that still likely "only" drops them down towards a level equal to two other games combined.

LOTR is a bit of a red herring in the mix since I don't think they're cutting tons of new plastic molds for it, and that makes it more difficult to gauge. However, I imagine that one can pretty readily argue that the play areas and bases being outsourced ups their production cost to somewhat comparable levels to the new models that are being produced for the range.

I don't know that this proves beyond all doubt that AI is getting more investment than the other three lines combined, but casual observance says that is a definite possibility.

Do we have a good idea how much it costs GW to produce a tool for a sprue these days? My understanding was that tooling costs had dropped massively from the good old days, and my understanding is also that GW now have that capability in house.

Given GW probably have CAD files for most of the aircraft they've released, it's probably less design work to pump out the sprues for AI than it is to do ones for BB and Necromunda.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Do we have a good idea how much it costs GW to produce a tool for a sprue these days? My understanding was that tooling costs had dropped massively from the good old days, and my understanding is also that GW now have that capability in house.

I don't know what it's like nowadays, but I can baseline by stating that GW paid about $75k per mold when they contracted to Renedra in the late-00s.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Do we have a good idea how much it costs GW to produce a tool for a sprue these days? My understanding was that tooling costs had dropped massively from the good old days, and my understanding is also that GW now have that capability in house.

Given GW probably have CAD files for most of the aircraft they've released, it's probably less design work to pump out the sprues for AI than it is to do ones for BB and Necromunda.

Nah the cost of money and time mostly lie in the CNC machining work on the mold, they only have 1-2 machine that constantly running to make mold. And the smaller the detail, the smaller milling blade , and more time needed to make the mold, small blade spins and moves much slower than the bigger one, otherwise they'd break.

But I suspect they'd probably break a bunch of them during the process even if they spun at slow speed

 catbarf wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Do we have a good idea how much it costs GW to produce a tool for a sprue these days? My understanding was that tooling costs had dropped massively from the good old days, and my understanding is also that GW now have that capability in house.

I don't know what it's like nowadays, but I can baseline by stating that GW paid about $75k per mold when they contracted to Renedra in the late-00s.

Yeah, I remember the pricing used to be around that sort of level, however my thought is they've likely dropped. In the late 00's there were less CNC shops and CNC machinists than there are now and just in general I've noticed a massive increase in the use of CNC machined parts at the places I've worked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chopstick wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Do we have a good idea how much it costs GW to produce a tool for a sprue these days? My understanding was that tooling costs had dropped massively from the good old days, and my understanding is also that GW now have that capability in house.

Given GW probably have CAD files for most of the aircraft they've released, it's probably less design work to pump out the sprues for AI than it is to do ones for BB and Necromunda.

Nah the cost of money and time mostly lie in the CNC machining work on the mold, they only have 1-2 machine that constantly running to make mold. And the smaller the detail, the smaller milling blade , and more time needed to make the mold, small blade spins and moves much slower than the bigger one, otherwise they'd break.

But I suspect they'd probably break a bunch of them during the process even if they spun at slow speed

Yeah I had in my mind that AI stuff, particularly the Imperials, would take a lot less time to cut than, say, a BB team, assuming that they can optimise the process for the mostly flat surfaces.

I wonder how much time it genuinely costs or how much time it takes to machine moulds these days.

These days GW is pumping out plastic kits at a phenomenal rate. And you look at kits like the all the Imperial and Tau Aeronautica stuff, there's a lot of duplicated machining, so clearly they'd rather machine 2 identical Thunderbolts than cast 2 smaller sprues of 1 Thunderbolt each or make a compromise by having different aircraft on a sprue (like they do with BB), which seems to indicate the machining costs aren't the main factor for those models.

That's why I bought up design costs, I wonder if GW are approaching the point where they're paying as much or more to the designers as they are to get the machining done. Where I work, we have in-house CNC machining, and we cost an hour of CNC work similar to an hour of design work, so on a job that takes longer to design than machine, that'll be the bigger cost.

Took about a month according to interview. The cad proccess was not a problem for them for the most part.

GW had always been trying to cut machining cost as much as they could in the recent years. Kits are lacking options left and right. Otherwise we'd have all the missing option for the Avengers, or having missile for the Marauder, or having plastic Vulture....

If they want to sell 4 T-Bolt at the current price but it's on 4 half size sprue, that'd double up their production time, that's not a wise move. They want to cut down the sprue size, but there're always a certain budget allowance that keep them at the size they are currently.

Thing might change in the future, maybe it'll be 2 T-bolt size aircrafts on 2 half size sprue for the same price as the 4 T-bolt kit, if GW feels greedy enough.

Chopstick wrote:
Took about a month according to interview. The cad proccess was not a problem for them for the most part.

I'd be curious to see the interview? If they only have 1-2 machines then it can't be taking them a month to machine a sprue otherwise they'd only be releasing 1 or 2 kits per month. Coronavirus obviously slowed things down more recently, but I thought they were releasing closer to 1 or 2 kits a week.

GW had always been trying to cut machining cost as much as they could in the recent years. Kits are lacking options left and right. Otherwise we'd have all the missing option for the Avengers, or having missile for the Marauder, or having plastic Vulture....

I don't know if that's a machining limitation though, the sprues are packed pretty tightly. I'd suggest that have a casting machine designed for tools of exactly that size so they need to fit everything within that, otherwise they have to cast a 2nd sprue or move to a different casting machine which may already be occupied by other stuff.

If they want to sell 4 T-Bolt at the current price but it's on 4 half size sprue, that'd double up their production time, that's not a wise move. They want to cut down the sprue size, but there're always a certain budget allowance that keep them at the size they are currently.

Yeah that's kind of what I meant, by machining 2 Thunderbolts per sprue they've halved their production time but doubled the machining time, so the machining time wouldn't be the limiting factor otherwise they wouldn't have done it that way. I'm sure GW have made their process as lean as possible, so from concept, to design, to machining the tool to production of the part and balancing that against other kits they need to make.

That's kind of the point I was getting at, I know back in the day, machining the tool was the single biggest investment and consideration, I'm not as convinced it is these days.

In terms of the design process, you look at a BB team, surely that would take a designer / design team a couple of months to do, from getting a broad concept, creating initial sketches, mocking up the sculpts, running the design past the bosses, making alterations from their feedback, tweaking poses and details, rapid prototyping some initial designs, breaking it down into something with the correct draft angles for machining and casting, laying out the sprues. Surely that's a process that would run well in to the 10's of thousands of pounds.

The Aeronautica stuff would also take a lot of time, but I imagine a lot less.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
Took about a month according to interview. The cad proccess was not a problem for them for the most part.

I'd be curious to see the interview? If they only have 1-2 machines then it can't be taking them a month to machine a sprue otherwise they'd only be releasing 1 or 2 kits per month. Coronavirus obviously slowed things down more recently, but I thought they were releasing closer to 1 or 2 kits a week.

GW and SG don't use the same machines, 1-2 machine is for the Specialist Games team only to make kit for AI, AT, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, and LOTR. There might got more machine now as they're expanding into BFG.

Chopstick wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
Took about a month according to interview. The cad proccess was not a problem for them for the most part.

I'd be curious to see the interview? If they only have 1-2 machines then it can't be taking them a month to machine a sprue otherwise they'd only be releasing 1 or 2 kits per month. Coronavirus obviously slowed things down more recently, but I thought they were releasing closer to 1 or 2 kits a week.

GW and SG don't use the same machines, 1-2 machine is for the Specialist Games team only to make kit for AI, AT, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, and LOTR. There might got more machine now as they're expanding into BFG.

What do you mean by they're now doing BFG? I thought they said a while back they weren't going to do that.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Chopstick wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
Took about a month according to interview. The cad proccess was not a problem for them for the most part.

I'd be curious to see the interview? If they only have 1-2 machines then it can't be taking them a month to machine a sprue otherwise they'd only be releasing 1 or 2 kits per month. Coronavirus obviously slowed things down more recently, but I thought they were releasing closer to 1 or 2 kits a week.

GW and SG don't use the same machines, 1-2 machine is for the Specialist Games team only to make kit for AI, AT, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, and LOTR. There might got more machine now as they're expanding into BFG.

What do you mean by they're now doing BFG? I thought they said a while back they weren't going to do that.

They’ve always said that they want to do BFG, but they don’t have the resources at the moment. I don’t think there’s been anything saying they’re doing BFG now so I don’t really know where that’s come from, but they could well be working on it behind the scenes for all we know.

Well, looks like I'm jumping in to this game after all. Was at a shop today and it caught my wifes eye - she likes planes.

So I ended up with:

1. Wings of Vengeance starter.
2. Rynns World Campaign guide
3. Rynns World area of engagement
4. Both Orc and Imperial card packs.
5. Orc and Human ground assets.

Is there anything left we don't have from that release?

Also, about the starter. I've read that it isn't a real starter and the only thing of value in it is the models, but they aren't even a full squad. How many planes in a squad? Local store has the starter for like $50, should I get another starter to round out the air forces or the planes themselves?

 Phobos wrote:


Also, about the starter. I've read that it isn't a real starter and the only thing of value in it is the models, but they aren't even a full squad. How many planes in a squad? Local store has the starter for like $50, should I get another starter to round out the air forces or the planes themselves?

The force in game are determined by points, not by "squad", there're no pre-made force or formation in this game.

For starting out 50 points dogfight and a few scenario the wing of vengeance box should be enough for both side.

For 100+ points force you need more models.

Get the other models first : valkyries, marauder destroyer, avenger, eavy nommer, grott bommer. Only get the starter if you need all the model for both force from that box again, it only saved about 10US$-14US$

Chopstick wrote:

 Phobos wrote:


Also, about the starter. I've read that it isn't a real starter and the only thing of value in it is the models, but they aren't even a full squad. How many planes in a squad? Local store has the starter for like $50, should I get another starter to round out the air forces or the planes themselves?

The force in game are determined by points, not by "squad", there're no pre-made force or formation in this game.

For starting out 50 points dogfight and a few scenario the wing of vengeance box should be enough for both side.

For 100+ points force you need more models.

Get the other models first : valkyries, marauder destroyer, avenger, eavy nommer, grott bommer. Only get the starter if you need all the model for both force from that box again, it only saved about 10US$-14US$

The miniatures in the starter box are actually more leaning towards 100 points for each side (including options).

It's when you want to play bigger games at 150 - 200 points that you really need to take more. But honestly, more makes the maps a bit too small to play on.

At 100 points the starter box force would be too limiting for the starter, especially for the Imperial side, a 100+ point 2 T-bolt 2 Marauder list is bad.

in some scenario you only need fighters, in some you need a transport, which the starter don't have. So the 2-3 planes 50, maybe 75 points dogfight-bombing scenario is the perfect recommendation of the starter. Technically speaking he can still deploy ground assets to get to 100 points and beyond, but that's also not recommend,

For a general 100-150 points list I'd recommend a box of T-bolt, and a box of Valkyries. And then maybe a box of Avenger for low flight mission, and a box of Marauder destroyer for Bombing mission.

Chopstick wrote:
At 100 points the starter box force would be too limiting for the starter, especially for the Imperial side, a 100+ point 2 T-bolt 2 Marauder list is bad.

in some scenario you only need fighters, in some you need a transport, which the starter don't have. So the 2-3 planes 50, maybe 75 points dogfight-bombing scenario is the perfect recommendation of the starter. Technically speaking he can still deploy ground assets to get to 100 points and beyond, but that's also not recommend,

For a general 100-150 points list I'd recommend a box of T-bolt, and a box of Valkyries. And then maybe a box of Avenger for low flight mission, and a box of Marauder destroyer for Bombing mission.

Optimisation doesn't matter with the starter box. It's meant to allow you to start the game.

I just pointed out the content is actually leaning towards 100 points of squadrons for both sides rather than your misleading one saying it's 50.

Of course if you want more diversity you'll have to take other boxes. That's the point.

But you can actually play 100 points value of games with just the starter box.

Well the man was concerned what he bought isn't up for game. Which I told him it'd be perfectly fine if his game was in the lower bracket. And his 2 bombers in a 100 pts dogfight wouldn't be a good time.

Chopstick wrote:
GW had always been trying to cut machining cost as much as they could in the recent years. Kits are lacking options left and right.

Huh?

Have you actually seen the difference between old and new GW sprue? Old ones were like 70% air, you could fit multiple fingers through the gaps cleanly. New ones are so densely packed they are 90% plastic, I sometimes have problems fitting a knife blade in to cut part cleanly. The idea new kit requires less machining time is absurd, not only the amount of parts is much higher but they are much more detailed too...

Yeah, it makes the investment in those GW clippers really worthwhile.

 Irbis wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
GW had always been trying to cut machining cost as much as they could in the recent years. Kits are lacking options left and right.

Huh?

Have you actually seen the difference between old and new GW sprue? Old ones were like 70% air, you could fit multiple fingers through the gaps cleanly. New ones are so densely packed they are 90% plastic, I sometimes have problems fitting a knife blade in to cut part cleanly. The idea new kit requires less machining time is absurd, not only the amount of parts is much higher but they are much more detailed too...

I never said "new kit requires less machining time " than old kit that they made 20 years ago. If i had to draw a comparison to "old GW sprue" I'll pull out Tau Firewarrior where old GW willing to make extra sprue for just slightly different heads and shoulder pads, something new GW would say no to.

I said "GW cutting down machininig cost" mean they make the kit in the least amount of sprue as they can while still increasing and selling them at the highest possible price. Wait this wouldn't matter if they pack in "many bits, much detail" right? Yeah except that options are missing left and right, "fun" bits were gone because it's a waste of space. One of the worst offender of this practice is GSC Aberrants.

And don't use box cutter to cut bits, a number 11 scalpel blade would have no problem fitting through any sprue. I don't use knife, I use a sharpened Nipper with flat profile and pointy tip that allow me to squeeze through any space, which I preferred to as the "extreme godhand nipper".

On the context of this game, yes game could use more investment on missile and bombs sprue, otherwise people will have to keep salvaging other kit for bit and essential weapon option like lascannon. Which is dumb.

 Phobos wrote:
Well, looks like I'm jumping in to this game after all. Was at a shop today and it caught my wifes eye - she likes planes.

So I ended up with:

1. Wings of Vengeance starter.
2. Rynns World Campaign guide
3. Rynns World area of engagement
4. Both Orc and Imperial card packs.
5. Orc and Human ground assets.

Is there anything left we don't have from that release?

Also, about the starter. I've read that it isn't a real starter and the only thing of value in it is the models, but they aren't even a full squad. How many planes in a squad? Local store has the starter for like $50, should I get another starter to round out the air forces or the planes themselves?

You are right that the only thing of value in the starter is the models. I also use the counters and reference sheet, but the rulebook is superseded once you get the campaign books and the hex map included in the start is too small.

The game is points based, so you can play with any number of models. The starter set gives you enough models for a small to medium sized game, though with only 2 fighters on the Imperial side it might start to get boring after a while.

The way the boxed sets are arranged is kind of annoying, as getting the starter set puts you in this annoying position where you don't really have enough planes, but then to buy an individual box gives you too many of that type of plane (e.g. 3 Dakkajets isn't enough, but you don't really need 9 of them either).

If you want a complete game where you can play both sides, a 2nd starter is a good idea, though you'll end up with more Marauders than you likely want.

If you want to focus on Imperials only, I probably wouldn't buy a 2nd starter unless you're getting a really good deal on it, as with the new models you can get some Destroyers, Lightnings and Valkyries instead. Valkyries especially give you something to land troops. Also if you're focused on Imperials you could get a Skies of Fire set, but then you end up with Tau instead of more Orks, the Tau in Skies of Fire is actually a decent sized force since the Tau models are more points (the starter set comes with 130+pts of Tau depending on how you equip them, so not a bad stand alone force).

If you're interested in the Orks, buying a 2nd starter I think is a better proposition, as it'll give you in total 4 Fighta Bombers and 6 Dakkajets, which is a pretty healthy squadron to which you can add some Grot Bombers or Eavy Bombers later on if you want to add some flavour.

In the end, I'm a sucker, I've bought 2 Wings of Vengeance sets and also 2 Skies of Fire, so that has given me a large squadron of Tau, a large squadron of Orks and enough Imperials to have 2 separate squadrons of them.

All told though, I'll be honest, as much as I love AI and love the models, the rules are a bit janky and I think GW need to put some effort in to make it more balanced and a bigger focus on manoeuvring.


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Chopstick wrote:
I said "GW cutting down machininig cost" mean they make the kit in the least amount of sprue as they can while still increasing and selling them at the highest possible price.

But that's not a machining issue, it's a casting issue. They could have laid out the sprues so there was only 2 Lightnings on it and filled out the weapon options, it would have required the same or even less machining, but then they'd need to cast 3 identical sprues for 6 models instead of 2 identical sprues.

Likewise, if they wanted to save machining costs, they could have put 1 Tigershark and 2 Barracudas on a single sprue and sold them as a bundle like they do with BB. It would have almost halved the machining time.

That's what makes me think the machining isn't the only hold up in the process, if they were up against the wall with machining time I think they would have made different choices.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chopstick wrote:
I said "GW cutting down machininig cost" mean they make the kit in the least amount of sprue as they can while still increasing and selling them at the highest possible price.

But that's not a machining issue, it's a casting issue. They could have laid out the sprues so there was only 2 Lightnings on it and filled out the weapon options, it would have required the same or even less machining, but then they'd need to cast 3 identical sprues for 6 models instead of 2 identical sprues.

Likewise, if they wanted to save machining costs, they could have put 1 Tigershark and 2 Barracudas on a single sprue and sold them as a bundle like they do with BB. It would have almost halved the machining time.

That's what makes me think the machining isn't the only hold up in the process, if they were up against the wall with machining time I think they would have made different choices.

Nah, it'll create excessive left over space on the sprue with only 2 lightning, or the space will just be filled with more bombs and missile, which is for the most part, won't be ultilised. All they have to do from the beginning is not being stingy and make a missile sprue, that way there'll be plenty of space left for extra weapons.

Mixed unit kit is a terrible, terrible idea. and fortunately the AI team got enough budget to avoid that fate. In BB the players have limit and there're only 1 winning condition in a game. You don't need kit of 6 thrower, or 6 blitzer, there're no game that allow you to field 12 thrower, or 12 Blitzer unlike in AI. And even in BB, they could use more budget because there're missing players, and not enough special role in a single box.

If you want to compare how well mixed unit kit do, look at AT, the knight kit give 1 of each gun to a knight, and most of the time I only need 1 gun on my list, which meant I have to buy double, triple the amount of Knight boxes for my list. Tau was missiling seeker missiles on their sprue, but a least they got all the guns they need in the kit.

Chopstick wrote:

TheGoodGerman wrote:
The Arvus and Vulture are up on preorder from Forgeworld. Alas, they are not exactly a bargain. And the Vulture only comes with the punisher cannon.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/07/forge-world-pre-order-airborne-reserves/

Cheers

Hmmm, I hope it's a web typo

After discussing the ins and outs of costs/engineering of designing and molding, let's get back to Aeronautica.

Like it says in the description, the Vulture model only comes with punisher cannons. Don't know about the rocket cradles in one of the product pictures, and if they plan to release all variants individually.

I wanted to make a double rocket pod version anyway, with leftover pods from the valkyries. As it turns out, the hardpoint design of the vulture is different from that of all other imperial planes. If you do the same, you will want to cut them off the wings (and, unlike me, before gluing the wings to the body ).

It was on the product page, but they removed it.

Seems like someone screwed up, either it was meant to be in but they forgot to cast it and include it, or that photo was from the early development and for whatever reason they decided to not include it but uploaded the photo anyway.

Someone over in the general AI thread over in the Specialist Games subforum mentioned they bought it thinking it'd come with the missiles and then got a response from FW saying the picture was for reference only, but they're clearly custom cradles which they sculpted so it's odd they wouldn't just include them.

Thanks for the replies. I'm doing Orks, my wife is doing Navy. We got a 2nd starter set.

Looking forward to playing this.

 Phobos wrote:
Thanks for the replies. I'm doing Orks, my wife is doing Navy. We got a 2nd starter set.

Looking forward to playing this.

That's a good start then Hope you guys enjoy it!

Probably sell it separately later, since the missing options was 2 type of missile + bombs, that'd be enough bits (8 for both plane, 24 bits in total) for FW to justified selling it separately. Even though Vulture is already expensive.

Chopstick wrote:
Probably sell it separately later, since the missing options was 2 type of missile + bombs, that'd be enough bits (8 for both plane, 24 bits in total) for FW to justified selling it separately. Even though Vulture is already expensive.

Could be that they were cut to ensure an already high cost didn't climb any higher.

It's time for GW to move all it's operations to the states. It wouldn't help much more for the China problem but R&D and labor would be a thing of the past!

TA

 schoon wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
Probably sell it separately later, since the missing options was 2 type of missile + bombs, that'd be enough bits (8 for both plane, 24 bits in total) for FW to justified selling it separately. Even though Vulture is already expensive.

Could be that they were cut to ensure an already high cost didn't climb any higher.

I doubt the casting costs make up a significant portion of the consumer price.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 schoon wrote:
Could be that they were cut to ensure an already high cost didn't climb any higher.

I doubt the casting costs make up a significant portion of the consumer price.

No, but more small, thin, intricate bits means bigger chance of mis-cast and bigger chance of having to be re-done.

Labor is almost always a bigger portion of cost than materials.