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BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because Space Wolves are a non-Codex Chapter, and therefore should (and do) have a completely unique organisation.

Just like all the many Chapters that do the same.....

what other chapters deviate as widely as the space Wolves though? the sueal space Marine chapter has a scout -> devestator -> assault marine -> tac marine progression,

the space wolves have blood claw, grey hunter, long fang. with scouts being something those with the apptitude are moved into.

this differant progression is pretty important. we see black templars likewise have a bit of a differant approuch, but few chapters are as divergant. most tend to be like the blood angels, or dark angels, mostly codex compliant with some oddities.

Pretty much any that have had any kind of lore written about them.

Take the Iron Hands - a FIRST FOUNDING Chapter with loads of interesting lore stuff, none of which is in the rules
or the Salamanders, another FIRST Founding

or yeah pretty much ANY chapter

DanielFM wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)

So you want the rules to say how people can paint their models?

Tournaments already do that. Some GTs limit factions with established color schemes to their rules. With no official GW ruling, other tournaments don't. It's open to them.

and GW will never make that ruling. limiting the creative aspect of the hobby is bad

Well good thing the Marine can get out of the warsuit quickly to reload because that ammo box is way too tiny,

DanielFM wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)

So you want the rules to say how people can paint their models?

Tournaments already do that. Some GTs limit factions with established color schemes to their rules. With no official GW ruling, other tournaments don't. It's open to them.

House rules are house rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

DanielFM wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)

So you want the rules to say how people can paint their models?

Tournaments already do that. Some GTs limit factions with established color schemes to their rules. With no official GW ruling, other tournaments don't. It's open to them.

House rules are house rules.

keep in mind an offical ruling from GW would limit creativity. for every case of "an donkey-cave is just running his Ultramarines as space wolves to take advantage of space wolves being better this edition" there are proably 3 guys running a army that is a "blood angels run as ultramarines with gulliman converted into an awesome Sanguinius"

 Asherian Command wrote:
Let's hope the create your own character aspects and chapters also are fun and interesting.

Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)

Though i am interested if they will finally give us a first company vets for primaris.

So you think it's ok to punish the player for painting his army in wrong color, because GW can't make a decent subfaction balance?

 Mr Morden wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because Space Wolves are a non-Codex Chapter, and therefore should (and do) have a completely unique organisation.

Just like all the many Chapters that do the same.....

what other chapters deviate as widely as the space Wolves though? the sueal space Marine chapter has a scout -> devestator -> assault marine -> tac marine progression,

the space wolves have blood claw, grey hunter, long fang. with scouts being something those with the apptitude are moved into.

this differant progression is pretty important. we see black templars likewise have a bit of a differant approuch, but few chapters are as divergant. most tend to be like the blood angels, or dark angels, mostly codex compliant with some oddities.

Pretty much any that have had any kind of lore written about them.

Take the Iron Hands - a FIRST FOUNDING Chapter with loads of interesting lore stuff, none of which is in the rules
or the Salamanders, another FIRST Founding

or yeah pretty much ANY chapter

All chapters are unique, that's true. Now how does that fact leads some of you to want from GW that they cut stuff from DA/SW/BA and streamline them is what I don't understand ? Just let GW gives some content to all first founding chapter and to some non first founding chapter, like the emperor spear or the black templar ...

I posted a little before that in the DA codex, about 33% of the units datasheets are specific to the DA. If you think the DA, BA and SW are comparable to the BT or the IH in any way today, you're delusional. Going back on all that GW built around those three chapter is stupid, and a little less salt would help you understand it imo.

 Mr Morden wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because Space Wolves are a non-Codex Chapter, and therefore should (and do) have a completely unique organisation.

Just like all the many Chapters that do the same.....

what other chapters deviate as widely as the space Wolves though? the sueal space Marine chapter has a scout -> devestator -> assault marine -> tac marine progression,

the space wolves have blood claw, grey hunter, long fang. with scouts being something those with the apptitude are moved into.

this differant progression is pretty important. we see black templars likewise have a bit of a differant approuch, but few chapters are as divergant. most tend to be like the blood angels, or dark angels, mostly codex compliant with some oddities.

Pretty much any that have had any kind of lore written about them.

Take the Iron Hands - a FIRST FOUNDING Chapter with loads of interesting lore stuff, none of which is in the rules
or the Salamanders, another FIRST Founding

or yeah pretty much ANY chapter

Iron Hands had some unique elements I'll agree (terminator sergents) but salamnders last I checked where, outside of some company orginizational differances pretty much codex aren;t they?

BrianDavion wrote:
Iron Hands had some unique elements I'll agree (terminator sergents) but salamnders last I checked where, outside of some company orginizational differances pretty much codex aren;t they?

Pretty much.

The Salamanders organize themselves in Great Companies rather than the typical codex companies, with 6 companies of 120+ warriors each in addition to a smaller scout "company" of roughly 60 men and their officers. Of the six companies, the first is a veteran company, the second through fourth are battle companies, and the fifth and sixth are reserve companies.

Other than that they are pretty much codex compliant outside of giving each battle brother training in the maintenance of their weapons rather than getting the techmarines to do it.

Silver144 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Let's hope the create your own character aspects and chapters also are fun and interesting.

Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)

Though i am interested if they will finally give us a first company vets for primaris.

So you think it's ok to punish the player for painting his army in wrong color, because GW can't make a decent subfaction balance?

Things certainly were better when there weren't these snowflake rules which just shoehorn armies into certain forms and funnily enough are totally against fluff. Jump packing blood angels as core of army and all bike white scars...sheesh that's such a destroying fluff. Bikes aren't white scar's core. Tacticals are. There's 60 of those per company with 20 bikes at most. 3 to 1 ratio.

tneva82 wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Let's hope the create your own character aspects and chapters also are fun and interesting.

Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)

Though i am interested if they will finally give us a first company vets for primaris.

So you think it's ok to punish the player for painting his army in wrong color, because GW can't make a decent subfaction balance?

Things certainly were better when there weren't these snowflake rules which just shoehorn armies into certain forms and funnily enough are totally against fluff. Jump packing blood angels as core of army and all bike white scars...sheesh that's such a destroying fluff. Bikes aren't white scar's core. Tacticals are. There's 60 of those per company with 20 bikes at most. 3 to 1 ratio.

So agree with you here. The game would be better should they just remove all those subfaction.

Want to play narrative army and don't care about effectiveness? Just take those fluffy units. Want to play competitive, take best units and paint them whatever color you want.

Right now it's - love iron hand? Oh, their subfaction suck, play them count as raven guard.

Removed - BrookM

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because Space Wolves are a non-Codex Chapter, and therefore should (and do) have a completely unique organisation.

Just like all the many Chapters that do the same.....

what other chapters deviate as widely as the space Wolves though? the sueal space Marine chapter has a scout -> devestator -> assault marine -> tac marine progression,

the space wolves have blood claw, grey hunter, long fang. with scouts being something those with the apptitude are moved into.

this differant progression is pretty important. we see black templars likewise have a bit of a differant approuch, but few chapters are as divergant. most tend to be like the blood angels, or dark angels, mostly codex compliant with some oddities.

Pretty much any that have had any kind of lore written about them.

Take the Iron Hands - a FIRST FOUNDING Chapter with loads of interesting lore stuff, none of which is in the rules
or the Salamanders, another FIRST Founding

or yeah pretty much ANY chapter

All chapters are unique, that's true. Now how does that fact leads some of you to want from GW that they cut stuff from DA/SW/BA and streamline them is what I don't understand ? Just let GW gives some content to all first founding chapter and to some non first founding chapter, like the emperor spear or the black templar ...

I posted a little before that in the DA codex, about 33% of the units datasheets are specific to the DA. If you think the DA, BA and SW are comparable to the BT or the IH in any way today, you're delusional. Going back on all that GW built around those three chapter is stupid, and a little less salt would help you understand it imo.

Because the blind focuss on those three Chapters has IMO has not only massively skewed the reosources and sadly horribly flandersised them. Sticking Wolf, Dark or Blood in front of every second work is not lore building.

And how many of those units could not be represented by a generic unit or a couple of line options which also allow players to represent the other 997+ Chapters rather than three.

Name a unit that would not be present in another Chapter in a similar form and could be represented by the rules.

Blood Angels just stick “blood” in front of every word? I’ll give Sanguinary Guard and Sanguinary Priests, but it still isn’t as blatant. Sanguinary Guard are also pretty different than any other unit. Their weapons are bespoke. Librarian dreadnoughts are unique but would kind of make sense for other chapters (I have never really understood why they’re BA specific). I suppose you could proxy Death Company as an assault squad.

Peeps need to chill, nobody has said people shouldn't get white scars armies with lots of bikes, or blood angels with jump packs.

An understandable concern is a player who paints rainbow marines and uses them as the best subfaction for 3 months, then when newer, better, marine subfactions come out, suddenly they use those rules for 3 months etc.

Having a custom chapter with custom fluff = consistency, using 5 different codex with the same models to game the system isn't right.

Saying "You can just use Death Company models as an Assault Squad" entirely misses the point that the Death Company are not Assault Squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
Peeps need to chill, nobody has said people shouldn't get white scars armies with lots of bikes, or blood angels with jump packs.

An understandable concern is a player who paints rainbow marines and uses them as the best subfaction for 3 months, then when newer, better, marine subfactions come out, suddenly they use those rules for 3 months etc.

Having a custom chapter with custom fluff = consistency, using 5 different codex with the same models to game the system isn't right.

You mean that thing people have been doing since forever? What people do with their army is none of your concern.

No but with Blood Angels - they have always been described as a Codex Compliant Chapter.....

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Blood Angels just stick “blood” in front of every word?

Once upon a time they did. It was walked back quite a bit.

The Wolves, on the other hand, just keep heading down the endless road of Flanderisation.

 Mr Morden wrote:
No but with Blood Angels - they have always been described as a Codex Compliant Chapter.....

None of the First Founding Legions outside the Ultramarines have ever been 100% codex compliant. They have always had some remnants of their pre-heresy traditions, if not simply outright ignoring the Codex. Even the Ultramarines stopped being fully codex compliant after the Tyranic Wars. The problem is that GW only ever gave attention to Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves. By all rights Iron Hands should have had their own codex a long time ago. For decades now it's been far more lore accurate to use Space Wolf rules to represent Iron Hands.

Even the Imperial Fists, who in their Dorn-inspired moping adopted the Codex pretty much to the letter, don't follow it completely (The Last Wall Protocol and all that jazz).

Dudeface wrote:
Peeps need to chill, nobody has said people shouldn't get white scars armies with lots of bikes, or blood angels with jump packs.

An understandable concern is a player who paints rainbow marines and uses them as the best subfaction for 3 months, then when newer, better, marine subfactions come out, suddenly they use those rules for 3 months etc.

Having a custom chapter with custom fluff = consistency, using 5 different codex with the same models to game the system isn't right.

I’m baffled by this complaint. If I play a guy at a tournament and he’s got a wysiwyg blood angels army, what the hell do I care if he played them as dark angels three months ago? What difference does it make to me? So long as his sanguinary guard aren’t being represented by deathwing terminators or something, all is good.

This is just a complete non-issue, which is why no tournament has ever ruled out homebrew marines, or homebrew anything else.

Have these been posted? Prices

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357497-codex-space-marines-20-more-unitsvehiclescharacters/page-18#entry5358543

Thread title got changed, try this one

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357535-space-marine-new-releases-codex-20/page-18#entry5358543

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
No but with Blood Angels - they have always been described as a Codex Compliant Chapter.....

None of the First Founding Legions outside the Ultramarines have ever been 100% codex compliant. They have always had some remnants of their pre-heresy traditions, if not simply outright ignoring the Codex. Even the Ultramarines stopped being fully codex compliant after the Tyranic Wars. The problem is that GW only ever gave attention to Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves. By all rights Iron Hands should have had their own codex a long time ago. For decades now it's been far more lore accurate to use Space Wolf rules to represent Iron Hands.

Even the Imperial Fists, who in their Dorn-inspired moping adopted the Codex pretty much to the letter, don't follow it completely (The Last Wall Protocol and all that jazz).

Agreed - but they are usually described as broadly codex complaint - like the Blod Ravens in the latest White Dwarf?

hence my point that many many Chapters have units that are currently not represented...... Now hopefully the new Supplement codexes will have moe lore, interesting models and a few new units each. The other major problem was/is GW's insistance of all units having models and not conversions - excpet if you want a Grandmaster Baby carrier of course.

The very most that BA/DA/W need is a few pages in White Dwarf (or preferably) a free pdf like Chaos Nights had.

Then maybe we could have subfaction supplements for non Marines - who are already a subfaction.....

Warhams-77 wrote:
Have these been posted? Prices

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357497-codex-space-marines-20-more-unitsvehiclescharacters/page-18#entry5358543

Mind copy/pasting? Some are workblocked from B&C.

Warhams-77 wrote:
Have these been posted? Prices

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357497-codex-space-marines-20-more-unitsvehiclescharacters/page-18#entry5358543

You beat me to it.

So if you are going to play a custom chapter that isn’t a heavily daddy influenced successor (only using base codex) you are only paying 25 pounds. Add a supplement means add 17.50 pounds.

Mega yikes on the character model costs though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mind copy/pasting? Some are workblocked from B&C.

All in pounds:

Khan / Tiggy - 25
Primary Codex - 25
Supplement Codex - 17.50
Dice Packs - 20
Datacards - 10
Smurf Datacards - 12
Upgrade Kit - 15

Sterling191 wrote:
Mega yikes on the character model costs though.

What did you expect?

 Apple Peel wrote:

What did you expect?

Not a 40% price increase over most existing (and already overpriced) clampack boyos.

Sterling191 wrote:
Mega yikes on the character model costs though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mind copy/pasting? Some are workblocked from B&C.

All in pounds:

Khan / Tiggy - 25
Primary Codex - 25
Supplement Codex - 17.50
Dice Packs - 20
Datacards - 10
Smurf Datacards - 12
Upgrade Kit - 15

Current SM Codex Cost: £30

To get the same rules you'll now need to spend £130. GW Clearly knows a good milking cow when they see one! Having to pay £42.50 to be able to play your Ultramarines army when everyone else only has to pay £25 is going to piss a lot of people off.

Sterling191 wrote:
Mega yikes on the character model costs though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mind copy/pasting? Some are workblocked from B&C.

All in pounds:

Khan / Tiggy - 25
Primary Codex - 25
Supplement Code - 17.50
Dice Packs - 20
Datacards - 10
Smurf Datacards - 12
Upgrade Kit - 15

Roger. All in USD, tentatively based upon price brackets:

So Khan, Tigurius, Codex: $40
Supplement: $30
Dice: $35
Datacards: $15
Faction Datacards: $19.25(probably will end up being $20)
Upgrade Kit & Transfers: $25

Not too bad on the upgrade kit to be honest. The Ultramarines one was $15 and the others were $12.50. Depends on the size of the transfer sheet though.
Supplements are $5 more than I thought the high end would be, but the codex dropping to $40 isn't a surprise.

The suppliments are overpriced. They should be £12.50 at most, if not £10.