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Have we seen prices for the LE supplements yet?

Dudeface wrote:


Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.

Is this an issue for only Space Marines for you, or all armies?

Is my custom Hive Fleet an issue? I use several different Hive Fleet traits over the course of several games, fluffing them as a remnant fleet that has absorbed several different other splinter fleets or individual ships to accumulate a vast array of tactical knowledge. Basically they're versatile and I don't have to conform to a single fleet because I like playing different builds and strategeys in different situations.

List tailoring is a thing in pick up or pre-planned games when you know who you're playing. But usually both of you know what your playing and can tailor your lists. That or you talk to your opponent and come up with a narrative for the fight and work out who should be what. Which is something you've pointed out but is a fair meeting place for people.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
I’m just happy Salamanders are getting a codex of their own.

Now, I’m just waiting for my Beil-Tan, Behemoth and Bork’an Codexes...

Reserving judgement until we see how in-depth these new codices are, but if they're substantial I would adore everyone getting the same treatment.

Relics, Psyker lores, Warlord Traits, and Stratagems...yeah, they seem kinda substantial.

I don't think some factions would benefit from them without being exactly what some claim they are("needless bloat" would, IMO, be a Bork'an or Vior'la Sept book when they're not really known for anything substantially different) but would be perfect for others(Craftworlds are known for specializing and Farsight Enclaves would be a 100% fit here).

Another way they might go about it for some factions is to have supplements that aren't tied to sub-factions but rather to organizations/builds that are present in the lore.

For instance IG might get supplements for Light Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Armored Companies, etc. Kind of like the a more expanded version of the Vigilus detachments. They could still have different Regimental Doctrines, so that we could have the Tallarn take on an Armored Company and the Cadian take on an Armored Company, but the inclusion of a large variety of stratagems and relics could be useful just like it was for Knights.

I think that it would also work for Orks (Dread Mob, Kult of Speed, Blitz Brigade, etc.) and Tau (different kinds of Cadres). Maybe Tyranids too. I'm not sure about other factions as I'm not as familiar with them.

This model could lead to a lot of rules bloat though, as with the way they're doing SM a player might only ever need a codex and supplement where an IG player wanting to run Infantry, Armored and Artillery detachments might need their codex and three supplements. On the other hand plenty of people are running IG + Knight + Vigilus and maybe Assassins, which is a comparable number of books.

(Hopefully I'm making some sort of sense, it's early here and the words aren't coming easily. )

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
I’m just happy Salamanders are getting a codex of their own.

Now, I’m just waiting for my Beil-Tan, Behemoth and Bork’an Codexes...

Reserving judgement until we see how in-depth these new codices are, but if they're substantial I would adore everyone getting the same treatment.

Relics, Psyker lores, Warlord Traits, and Stratagems...yeah, they seem kinda substantial.

I don't think some factions would benefit from them without being exactly what some claim they are("needless bloat" would, IMO, be a Bork'an or Vior'la Sept book when they're not really known for anything substantially different) but would be perfect for others(Craftworlds are known for specializing and Farsight Enclaves would be a 100% fit here).

Another way they might go about it for some factions is to have supplements that aren't tied to sub-factions but rather to organizations/builds that are present in the lore.

For instance IG might get supplements for Light Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Armored Companies, etc. Kind of like the a more expanded version of the Vigilus detachments. They could still have different Regimental Doctrines, so that we could have the Tallarn take on an Armored Company and the Cadian take on an Armored Company, but the inclusion of a large variety of stratagems and relics could be useful just like it was for Knights.

I think that it would also work for Orks (Dread Mob, Kult of Speed, Blitz Brigade, etc.) and Tau (different kinds of Cadres). Maybe Tyranids too. I'm not sure about other factions as I'm not as familiar with them.

This model could lead to a lot of rules bloat though, as with the way they're doing SM a player might only ever need a codex and supplement where an IG player wanting to run Infantry, Armored and Artillery detachments might need their codex and three supplements. On the other hand plenty of people are running IG + Knight + Vigilus and maybe Assassins, which is a comparable number of books.

(Hopefully I'm making some sort of sense, it's early here and the words aren't coming easily. )

Riiiiight... I don't think it'll happen because everyone else isn't Space Marines.

 Carnikang wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.

Is this an issue for only Space Marines for you, or all armies?

Is my custom Hive Fleet an issue? I use several different Hive Fleet traits over the course of several games, fluffing them as a remnant fleet that has absorbed several different other splinter fleets or individual ships to accumulate a vast array of tactical knowledge. Basically they're versatile and I don't have to conform to a single fleet because I like playing different builds and strategeys in different situations.

List tailoring is a thing in pick up or pre-planned games when you know who you're playing. But usually both of you know what your playing and can tailor your lists. That or you talk to your opponent and come up with a narrative for the fight and work out who should be what. Which is something you've pointed out but is a fair meeting place for people.

For me personally not an issue, you're able to explain that you're doing it for a reason that's not just "it's the best one" with a decent fluff reason. You're engaging a narrative rather than simply power gaming which was the crux of my issue.

Either way I think it's sufficiently covered in here and everyone agrees it's a social contract and speaking to your opponent is key. Different people want different stuff!

Dudeface wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.

Is this an issue for only Space Marines for you, or all armies?

Is my custom Hive Fleet an issue? I use several different Hive Fleet traits over the course of several games, fluffing them as a remnant fleet that has absorbed several different other splinter fleets or individual ships to accumulate a vast array of tactical knowledge. Basically they're versatile and I don't have to conform to a single fleet because I like playing different builds and strategeys in different situations.

List tailoring is a thing in pick up or pre-planned games when you know who you're playing. But usually both of you know what your playing and can tailor your lists. That or you talk to your opponent and come up with a narrative for the fight and work out who should be what. Which is something you've pointed out but is a fair meeting place for people.

For me personally not an issue, you're able to explain that you're doing it for a reason that's not just "it's the best one" with a decent fluff reason. You're engaging a narrative rather than simply power gaming which was the crux of my issue.

Either way I think it's sufficiently covered in here and everyone agrees it's a social contract and speaking to your opponent is key. Different people want different stuff!

Why are you boring us with this discussion ? If you want to play fluff, then find people that play fluff and makes guidelines with them beforehand to prevent "power gaming" or whatever you dislike. As for others, they can do whatever they want and if they desire to paint a rainbow space marine force (even if that's usually ugly as hell) and change their chapter tactic from one game to another then so be it.

WhiteDog wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.

Is this an issue for only Space Marines for you, or all armies?

Is my custom Hive Fleet an issue? I use several different Hive Fleet traits over the course of several games, fluffing them as a remnant fleet that has absorbed several different other splinter fleets or individual ships to accumulate a vast array of tactical knowledge. Basically they're versatile and I don't have to conform to a single fleet because I like playing different builds and strategeys in different situations.

List tailoring is a thing in pick up or pre-planned games when you know who you're playing. But usually both of you know what your playing and can tailor your lists. That or you talk to your opponent and come up with a narrative for the fight and work out who should be what. Which is something you've pointed out but is a fair meeting place for people.

For me personally not an issue, you're able to explain that you're doing it for a reason that's not just "it's the best one" with a decent fluff reason. You're engaging a narrative rather than simply power gaming which was the crux of my issue.

Either way I think it's sufficiently covered in here and everyone agrees it's a social contract and speaking to your opponent is key. Different people want different stuff!

Why are you boring us with this discussion ? If you want to play fluff, then find people that play fluff and makes guidelines with them beforehand to prevent "power gaming" or whatever you dislike. As for others, they can do whatever they want and if they desire to paint a rainbow space marine force (even if that's usually ugly as hell) and change their chapter tactic from one game to another then so be it.

Because I keep drawing a line under it, agreeing it's down to mutual decision with others, then people keep responding to it with more opinions.

I'm done on the topic, but if it's boring you don't respond.

On a positive note, more info on chapter tictacs:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/05/space-marines-preview-enhanced-chapter-tacticsgw-homepage-post-1-2/

 Carnikang wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.

Is this an issue for only Space Marines for you, or all armies?

Is my custom Hive Fleet an issue? I use several different Hive Fleet traits over the course of several games, fluffing them as a remnant fleet that has absorbed several different other splinter fleets or individual ships to accumulate a vast array of tactical knowledge. Basically they're versatile and I don't have to conform to a single fleet because I like playing different builds and strategeys in different situations.

List tailoring is a thing in pick up or pre-planned games when you know who you're playing. But usually both of you know what your playing and can tailor your lists. That or you talk to your opponent and come up with a narrative for the fight and work out who should be what. Which is something you've pointed out but is a fair meeting place for people.

The difference is you are staying inside one codex. Some space marine players will jump between various vanilla marines, dark angels, blood angels, and wolves under the guise of 'it's a custom chapter' which is just kinda crummy.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
I’m just happy Salamanders are getting a codex of their own.

Now, I’m just waiting for my Beil-Tan, Behemoth and Bork’an Codexes...

Reserving judgement until we see how in-depth these new codices are, but if they're substantial I would adore everyone getting the same treatment.

Relics, Psyker lores, Warlord Traits, and Stratagems...yeah, they seem kinda substantial.

I don't think some factions would benefit from them without being exactly what some claim they are("needless bloat" would, IMO, be a Bork'an or Vior'la Sept book when they're not really known for anything substantially different) but would be perfect for others(Craftworlds are known for specializing and Farsight Enclaves would be a 100% fit here).

Another way they might go about it for some factions is to have supplements that aren't tied to sub-factions but rather to organizations/builds that are present in the lore.

For instance IG might get supplements for Light Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Armored Companies, etc. Kind of like the a more expanded version of the Vigilus detachments. They could still have different Regimental Doctrines, so that we could have the Tallarn take on an Armored Company and the Cadian take on an Armored Company, but the inclusion of a large variety of stratagems and relics could be useful just like it was for Knights.

I think that it would also work for Orks (Dread Mob, Kult of Speed, Blitz Brigade, etc.) and Tau (different kinds of Cadres). Maybe Tyranids too. I'm not sure about other factions as I'm not as familiar with them.

This model could lead to a lot of rules bloat though, as with the way they're doing SM a player might only ever need a codex and supplement where an IG player wanting to run Infantry, Armored and Artillery detachments might need their codex and three supplements. On the other hand plenty of people are running IG + Knight + Vigilus and maybe Assassins, which is a comparable number of books.

(Hopefully I'm making some sort of sense, it's early here and the words aren't coming easily. )

Really need a Militarum Tempestus supplement. They operate completely different than guard in most every way.

It's was so fething time that the vehicles got CA ! Gonna keep to the Ultramarines then

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/05/space-marines-preview-enhanced-chapter-tacticsgw-homepage-post-1-2/

Chapter tactics apply to our vehicles now, woohoo

Chapter tactics are good and no one seems better than the others. Glad my Iron Hands get a good boost there.

I'm pretty happy with the shift to Raven Guard's Chapter Tactics. I fully expect to see this wording for everyone else at some point.

Also, looking at the Crimson Fists and Black Templars' tactics? I'm even more certain that they'll be in a "Sons of Dorn" book.

Are any of those different from the equivalent chapter tactics in the original 8th edition codex? I haven't followed them too closely.

 warboss wrote:
Are any of those different from the equivalent chapter tactics in the original 8th edition codex? I haven't followed them too closely.

Ultramarines is unchanged. The rest have been extensively modified.

What is more interesting is that traits now apply to all units, while CSM traits still are Infantry, Daemon Prince and Helbrute only.

 buddha wrote:
Chapter tactics are good and no one seems better than the others. Glad my Iron Hands get a good boost there.

Mmm. My first reaction is fists and hands are a fair bit better than others, depending on the type of army being played. (Red fists are msu to an absurd degree, irons are vehicle heavy, yellows are fairly general if you cherrypick units with bolt weapons)

Sallies are a little more solid

Ultras and ravens are...OK

templars and scars are good for charge armies (scars also like bikes but notably the CT and example don't agree about intercessors and assault shooting), but offer very little otherwise.

The big surprise is stalker bolt rifles, CT applying to all the things and oldmarines in some of the pictures!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
Are any of those different from the equivalent chapter tactics in the original 8th edition codex? I haven't followed them too closely.

Almost all of them got an additional ability. Ultras are pretty close, raven got changed, an additional bonus but more restrictive to the original modifier.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Are any of those different from the equivalent chapter tactics in the original 8th edition codex? I haven't followed them too closely.

Ultramarines is unchanged. The rest have been extensively modified.

Yes and no. The wording of Ultramarines is unchanged. But ... the Guilliman car park can now hit reverse out of cc and still shoot. For what it's worth.

This is a surprisingly huge shot in the arm for Marines. Kinda sad that Chaos came before this now

Ooh iron hands over watch on 5+ and vehicle wounds count as double on the degrading charts is pretty big. Like really big actually. You take Repulsor variants for fly keyword and resistance to charge and it’s gonna be a bad day trying to melee their vehicles.

AND with the stalker bolter change, we now see GW is not afraid to modify profiles or data sheets with this update. This could in fact be the “sweeping changes” marines need.

Wonder if they’re keeping the modified rapid fire rules?

Would be nice. I do like how this entire time they kept all the non-codex/CSM armies at the same artificially low power bar, and now they're releasing just the codex armies with a total redesign, which arbitrarily makes them way better.

Until, of course, we SLOG through another 6 fething months of nothing but marine codex after marine codex to get them all up to date.

so instead of fixing the problem when it was evident...oh...four months after the beginning of the edition? They've decided to do it in the worst possible way, because it sells the most possible books.

 Malkyr wrote:
This is a surprisingly huge shot in the arm for Marines. Kinda sad that Chaos came before this now

Why? Chaos is easily the No. 1 army at the moment. No other army has won anywhere near as many big tournaments as Chaos has in the past couple of months. With the exception of the usual harebrained FW pay-to-win, Chaos is pretty much the 2019 version of the 2018 Castellan and the 2017 Ynnari.

@everyone:


Thanks for the info on the tactics and what has changed. I'll update the OP.

You know, I am just going to point at people who pretended Blood Raven chapter tactic was any good and laugh. It was bad compared to old chapters, compared to new ones, it's unanimously 1000% pure, unfiltered garbage. Never even mind buffs, the fact they now apply to everything while BR is useless on anything but T4 infantry unless someone brings a titan in makes it 'below the bottom' tier tactic. Ok, maybe new psychic powers will-- buahahaha, nope, not even that will help, seeing vast majority of new psychic powers are locked to supplements so no cigar there either.

It's especially shocking considering the fact that BR writers had to know what is coming less than two weeks later, and they still had the gall to print that gak (which has to have record on fastest time to be completely obsolete after publishing in the whole SM history) and demand good money for it. Balancing it for new codex was minimum acceptable level, and they failed to even do it for old one

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wonder if they’re keeping the modified rapid fire rules?

Yes, Bolter Discipline, ATSKNF and Angels of Death will all be included in the new codex. I think they said it on one of the articles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Irbis wrote:
You know, I am just going to point at people who pretended Blood Raven chapter tactic was any good and laugh. It was bad compared to old chapters, compared to new ones, it's unanimously 1000% pure, unfiltered garbage. Never even mind buffs, the fact they now apply to everything while BR is useless on anything but T4 infantry unless someone brings a titan in makes it 'below the bottom' tier tactic. Ok, maybe new psychic powers will-- buahahaha, nope, not even that will help, seeing vast majority of new psychic powers are locked to supplements so no cigar there either.

It's especially shocking considering the fact that BR writers had to know what is coming less than two weeks later, and they still had the gall to print that gak (which has to have record on fastest time to be completely obsolete after publishing in the whole SM history) and demand good money for it. Balancing it for new codex was minimum acceptable level, and they failed to even do it for old one

White Dwarfs go to print months in advance.

 godardc wrote:
It's was so fething time that the vehicles got CA ! Gonna keep to the Ultramarines then

Hopefully they will do the same for Genestealer Cults and Sisters as well.

I donlt think anyone is going to object to CT's now working for vehicles....

 Mr Morden wrote:

 godardc wrote:
It's was so fething time that the vehicles got CA ! Gonna keep to the Ultramarines then

Hopefully they will do the same for Genestealer Cults and Sisters as well.

I donlt think anyone is going to object to CT's now working for vehicles....

It was dumb as feck to begin with. They HAVE to update all codices not having their chapter applied to Vehicles (GSC are even worse in this aspect since they have half the codex not benefitting from the Creeds i.e. Vehicles, Brood Brother Units and Genestealer KEYWORDS)

These are really good to see. We're getting some of the small firepower and/or defense boosts that were needed for SM. And lets hope they're fixing the other intercessor assault bolter too.


I'm going to assume that Chaos will get a round of Legion Trait updates as well. If they get those, then we can expect to see Chaos Marines actually used, not just HQs+Daemons. Alpha Legion and IW especially being mirrors of Ravenguard and Fists.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
You know, I am just going to point at people who pretended Blood Raven chapter tactic was any good and laugh. It was bad compared to old chapters, compared to new ones, it's unanimously 1000% pure, unfiltered garbage. Never even mind buffs, the fact they now apply to everything while BR is useless on anything but T4 infantry unless someone brings a titan in makes it 'below the bottom' tier tactic. Ok, maybe new psychic powers will-- buahahaha, nope, not even that will help, seeing vast majority of new psychic powers are locked to supplements so no cigar there either.

It's especially shocking considering the fact that BR writers had to know what is coming less than two weeks later, and they still had the gall to print that gak (which has to have record on fastest time to be completely obsolete after publishing in the whole SM history) and demand good money for it. Balancing it for new codex was minimum acceptable level, and they failed to even do it for old one

White Dwarfs go to print months in advance.

So do the codexes.

I am really liking the Crimson Fists tactics. Best thing is that it doesn't really do anything to my army composition (as of yet). I ran tons of bolt weapons and MSU.