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How do?

Yes, OK, it's a slightly click-baity title. See, if you've read any of my Trek related whimbreling, you'll know I love DS9, and not only consider it the best Trek series, but one of the finest Sci-Fi series ever.

And yet, I find it's sheer brilliance, and risk taking, left such an impression that it set an incredibly high bar for further adventures to meet.

I mean, DS9 wasn't about The Federation. It was rarely Forty Five Minutes To Save The Day. It was the first time we saw consequences in Trek. Where our heroes save the day in the nick of time, only to make things far worse in the long run. It's a show about the surprisingly tenuous political situation in The Alpha Quadrant. It's about the really hard choices a Starfleet officer can face in their career, and how, sometimes, there's only Bad Options to choose from.

For the first time, Trek broke free of Git Of The Week, and pushed beyond Git Of The Week You Might Recognise From The Previous Time They Were Git Of The Week. It's the series with the most pronounced character development. It beautifully and cunningly buddied up Miles 'when will the suffering end' O'Brien with Julian 'well, everything's a doddle when your a super genius' Bashir. The Everyman with the Ubermensch, in a friendship. A genuinely heartfelt friendship.

It had higher stakes than we'd ever seen. Not only the political status quo fracturing, but an outside threat with actual character (much as I like The Borg...man they got dull, and quite quickly). It even had multiple Mirror Universe stories which form their own little sub-arc - a fantastic way to let the actors of the more uptight characters chew the scenery (Kira....oh my)

The show developed everything. It took Trek to new and interesting places, without losing the distinct characteristics that make Trek so beloved. I mean, we even get non-Federation species offering critique of the Federation every now and then - at least an attempt to overturn the 'but everyone secretly wants to be in the best buds club' trope.

Sure it's not all wonderful. When it's bad, it's flipping awful. But hey, show me the seven season show that doesn't have distinct bum notes amongst its concerto.

And what did we get after that?

Voyager. Basically 'hey, remember that time we swept the writer's room floor when TNG ended? Found that binbag we chucked all the rejects in'. Just, utterly god awful. Poor characters, poor execution (note I'm not attacking the actors here). And worse? It squandered what DS9 had built up, by having it set over there. No follow up on the fall out of the Dominion War. Nope. Just 'here's a blank slate so we don't have to worry about continuity'. Vomit inducingly bad.

Enterprise. ARTOO DETOO YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY. That's right! Having blown us off with Voyager, they doubled down with Enterprise. Hey! Want to know what happened between First Contact and ToS? No....not really.... TOUGH! Just utterly godawful to the point where I can't watch it. And for me, that takes real effort (I can ever sit through multiple episodes of Voyager. And Galactica 1980). And that theme song? uurrrrrrgggghhhhhhh. Awful in every way (Empress Hoshi does not make up for it)

Discovery? OK. I'm holding off judgement here myself. I see the criticism from others, and I can't say it's completely unjustified. But, unlike the others, it remains a work in progress. And with Season 3 at least being in the future? I'm hopeful we might finally get a DS9 worthy follow up. But hey, you do you and vent as you wish. I mean, you don't need my permission to do that or owt. Just saying it's fine in the context of this thread.

So, in summary?

DS9 set a high bar of expected quality. And the series since haven't so much not met that bar, as left me with the distinct impression they didn't even try! I mean, how can you go from a comparatively (within it's own peers) tightly plotted series to Voyager and Enterprise? Shows with absolutely no stakes (I for one didn't care enough about the crew of Voyager to give much of a monkey's about whether or how they got home. Enterprise? We can guess it turns out OK, because it's set in the past. Prequelitis).

So. Yeah. DS9 ruined Star Trek by being utterly brilliant.

Fight me.

Voyager had it's high points, but yea ST has definitely declined after the greatness that was DS9.

DS9 is one of the greatest Sci Fi shows ever, right up there with Babylon 5 (which I think was a bit better).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

So. Yeah. DS9 ruined Star Trek by being utterly brilliant.

Fight me.

As you wish. DS9 did indeed ruin Star Trek, because it was a brilliant TV show that was terrible at being Star Trek.

It had potential to be all the things you seem to feel it was, a lot of the episodes in the first three seasons were solid Trek-but affairs that made good use of the Occupation and the static location, but as far as I'm concerned they were squandered with the attempt to make Band of Brothers: Primary Coloured Uniforms Edition. TOS challenged the norms and prejudices of its day and advocated peace. TNG challenged the norms and prejudices of its day and advocated peace. DS9 turned Star Trek into an apologia for contemporary "third way" American liberalism and the idea of justified war. DS9 deconstructed Star Trek, but you only deconstruct things that you disagree with on some level, and IMO you only have the right to deconstruct something that's at least moderately ubiquitous - DS9 deconstructed Star Trek, pretty much the only mainstream utopian sci-fi property in existence, and it did it for the sake of facile centrism.

DS9 took the "corrupt Admirals" trope-story to ludicrous new highs. It sanitised the Ferengi, taking them from avatars of the inherent barbarism of capitalist societies to sexist comic relief trolls. It created Section 31, a concept that not only completely and fatally undermines the moral authority of the Federation on which all prior Trek stories had rested, but has been a complete blight on the franchise ever since, acting as an easy vector of infection for writers who're incapable of creating anything but vacuously melodramatic "dark & gritty" garbage; DS9 is responsible for Into Darkness, DS9 is responsible for some of the most egregious moronic parts of STD.

Personally, I'll take a pale imitation of the better Treks like Voyager over the casual unthinking vandalism of DS9 any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

So, someone needs to make another Babylon 5 to "inspire" another great Trek series?

Or just watch the Orville?

My 2c has a lot of dependent variables. . .


So, I really started watching trek when TNG was first hitting the reruns (and on my local station, it was a TNG rerun that aired immediately before VOY), so I naturally have a soft spot for how "great" Picard and crew are.

At the time I started watching, I tried, really tried to like DS9, but just liked Voyager better. . . Maybe it had something to do with being 12-13 years old, and there's Jeri Ryan in a skintight suit, I dunno.



But as an adult in my 30s, I was finally able to force myself to watch DS9. And while I still don't really think of it as my favorite, it is definitely a great series. I think it is definitely more adult in its themes of politics and ramifications, such that even above average intelligence 13 yo me isn't going to appreciate (not saying younger crowds won't "get" it, but a certain level of appreciation may be missing)


But yes, ENT is fething god-awful, even if it had potential. . . Every time you start to like a character, they go and do/say something so out of character you wonder how these idiots ever left orbit.

And that theme song. . .

Can't watch The Orville.

It's written by and stars He That Shall Not Be Named.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So, someone needs to make another Babylon 5 to "inspire" another great Trek series?

The Expanse is getting there... give it another few seasons and it will have a bit more in common with Babylon 5 even.

I think the problem is since DS9 they've tried to get "back to the old formula" and not really done it all that well. Voyager lacked a real sense of a greater continuity outside of the ship; which is great for a weekly "alien of the week" series; which honestly was probably wanted at the time after DS9 had mostly done away with that concept by the end.

However Voyager went a little too far and I feel like the idea of continually heading home might have been the wrong one; staying and settling and making it "Swiss family Startrek" would have been more interesting. Seeing them have to hammer out new agreements; having actual consequences in the long term of their actions and still encountering lots of new aliens.

 Overread wrote:
I think the problem is since DS9 they've tried to get "back to the old formula" and not really done it all that well. Voyager lacked a real sense of a greater continuity outside of the ship; which is great for a weekly "alien of the week" series; which honestly was probably wanted at the time after DS9 had mostly done away with that concept by the end.

However Voyager went a little too far and I feel like the idea of continually heading home might have been the wrong one; staying and settling and making it "Swiss family Startrek" would have been more interesting. Seeing them have to hammer out new agreements; having actual consequences in the long term of their actions and still encountering lots of new aliens.

That's a really good point I hadn't thought of. Kind of similar to Andromeda (which had some good ideas, despite some major issues), where Janeway decides to try to bring the ideals of the Federation to an entirely new quadrant, and form her own similar governing body with some new allies and enemies. Could have ended with them establishing a wormhole or something to bridge her new Federation with the Alpha quadrant.

Yup.

Voyager was a number of wasted opportunities. From the get go, the way the Maquis were basically ‘k guess we’re loyal starfleet crew then’, with minimal tensions? Wasted opportunity.

 Horst wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think the problem is since DS9 they've tried to get "back to the old formula" and not really done it all that well. Voyager lacked a real sense of a greater continuity outside of the ship; which is great for a weekly "alien of the week" series; which honestly was probably wanted at the time after DS9 had mostly done away with that concept by the end.

However Voyager went a little too far and I feel like the idea of continually heading home might have been the wrong one; staying and settling and making it "Swiss family Startrek" would have been more interesting. Seeing them have to hammer out new agreements; having actual consequences in the long term of their actions and still encountering lots of new aliens.

That's a really good point I hadn't thought of. Kind of similar to Andromeda (which had some good ideas, despite some major issues), where Janeway decides to try to bring the ideals of the Federation to an entirely new quadrant, and form her own similar governing body with some new allies and enemies. Could have ended with them establishing a wormhole or something to bridge her new Federation with the Alpha quadrant.

Or leave them setup with a neat plot hook for a future series - when there are two starfleets separated by a few hundred years who then link up - a unification that could prove very tricky as the two might have diverged. The Voyager one might have kept truer to the ideals whilst the original might have changed many times over; perhaps going warlike; or falling into a dominant species situation or even falling into a decedent age.



After Voyager though I get the feeling that too many of the teams behind it have wanted to "remake it in their own image" hence why we keep getting all these alternative timeline plots. Which to me suggests that they don't actually want to make Startrek stories. They want to make their own, but inspired by Startrek, but they know they'll never get funding unless its got the ST logo on the front.

It made star trek more believable ... It added character to one sided races like the romulans and Klingons and yes it did set a high bar they have not achieved since, so sure I can agree DS9 ruined star trek, Picard will kill it off though.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Can't watch The Orville.

It's written by and stars He That Shall Not Be Named.

You're really just punishing yourself. The Orville is a fun, streamlined "highlights" version of TOS and TNG. Get past the first couple episodes, and the series takes off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Horst wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So, someone needs to make another Babylon 5 to "inspire" another great Trek series?

The Expanse is getting there... give it another few seasons and it will have a bit more in common with Babylon 5 even.

Hmmm. I'll keep my eye on it. How many seasons has it already?

The Expanse ran for 3 seasons on Sci-Fi and was cancelled... and was immediately picked up for season 4 on Amazon. If you have Prime, you can watch all 3 current seasons, and the next one should be coming out December 13th.

DS9 took the "corrupt Admirals" trope-story to ludicrous new highs. It sanitised the Ferengi, taking them from avatars of the inherent barbarism of capitalist societies to sexist comic relief trolls.

In TNG Ferengi were already sexist comic relief trolls in later seasons.

 Frazzled wrote:

DS9 took the "corrupt Admirals" trope-story to ludicrous new highs. It sanitised the Ferengi, taking them from avatars of the inherent barbarism of capitalist societies to sexist comic relief trolls.

In TNG Ferengi were already sexist comic relief trolls in later seasons.

Honestly it was probably good that they took the Ferengi in that direction considering the massive social changes that were to unfold for them as a side story to the main DS9 one. Plus I think had they been too serious the Ferengi would have lost all their charm as a faction and would have become darker than the Founders in the setting

I liked the last season of Enterprise. I thought its approach of retconning all the inconsistencies and plot holes from the series while also making lots of references to TOS made it feel kind of like a fan film - it was what fans argued about in internet forums for ages and what fans wanted to see. There was a bit too much of that, but at the same time, I did enjoy it. At the very least, it started to feel like a Star Trek show again.

I think if Enterprise had gotten another three seasons under the same leadership (how did Voyager get 7 seasons?), it could've been something really awesome. It wouldn't have been as philosophically interesting as TOS or Next Generation, nor as dark and complex as DS9, but it would've been a really nerdy show that rewarded obsessive Trek fans... which, you know, I am.

*reads title, prepares Bat'leth*

It is a good day to die, for my favorite entry in the franchise that has been ruined by hacks who look back at TOS with rose-tinted glasses and no conception of what makes good TV in the year not 1967.

 Horst wrote:
Voyager had it's high points, but yea ST has definitely declined after the greatness that was DS9.

DS9 is one of the greatest Sci Fi shows ever, right up there with Babylon 5 (which I think was a bit better).

B5 was indeed cool. DS9 touches my feelers more though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:
*reads title, prepares Bat'leth*

It is a good day to die, for my favorite entry in the franchise that has been ruined by hacks who look back at TOS with rose-tinted glasses and no conception of what makes good TV in the year not 1967.

Infernos light?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
It made star trek more believable ... It added character to one sided races like the romulans and Klingons and yes it did set a high bar they have not achieved since, so sure I can agree DS9 ruined star trek, Picard will kill it off though.

How can you of all people say that? LOL. I have high hopes for Picard. I literally have no idea what to expect though.

Probably 70% of TNG episodes are un-rewatchable IMO. Maybe more. So many same-y and boring stories.

While DS9 isn’t my favorite sci-fi or even Trek series ever (I see you, TOS!), it certainly wasn’t as boring and same-y. It was a much needed shot in the arm for a nearly calcified franchise.

Edit: Voyager is just a bizarre case. *By the end of the pilot*, they’d already started undoing potentially interesting twists they’d made on the ST formula.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Can't watch The Orville.

It's written by and stars He That Shall Not Be Named.

You're really just punishing yourself. The Orville is a fun, streamlined "highlights" version of TOS and TNG. Get past the first couple episodes, and the series takes off.

Agreed. I hate everything else he touches, but the orville is really good. It's best isn't as good as TNG at its best, but on average I think it's better. The first couple are rough though.

As you wish. DS9 did indeed ruin Star Trek, because it was a brilliant TV show that was terrible at being Star Trek.

It had potential to be all the things you seem to feel it was, a lot of the episodes in the first three seasons were solid Trek-but affairs that made good use of the Occupation and the static location, but as far as I'm concerned they were squandered with the attempt to make Band of Brothers: Primary Coloured Uniforms Edition. TOS challenged the norms and prejudices of its day and advocated peace. TNG challenged the norms and prejudices of its day and advocated peace. DS9 turned Star Trek into an apologia for contemporary "third way" American liberalism and the idea of justified war. DS9 deconstructed Star Trek, but you only deconstruct things that you disagree with on some level, and IMO you only have the right to deconstruct something that's at least moderately ubiquitous - DS9 deconstructed Star Trek, pretty much the only mainstream utopian sci-fi property in existence, and it did it for the sake of facile centrism.

DS9 took the "corrupt Admirals" trope-story to ludicrous new highs. It sanitised the Ferengi, taking them from avatars of the inherent barbarism of capitalist societies to sexist comic relief trolls. It created Section 31, a concept that not only completely and fatally undermines the moral authority of the Federation on which all prior Trek stories had rested, but has been a complete blight on the franchise ever since, acting as an easy vector of infection for writers who're incapable of creating anything but vacuously melodramatic "dark & gritty" garbage; DS9 is responsible for Into Darkness, DS9 is responsible for some of the most egregious moronic parts of STD.

Personally, I'll take a pale imitation of the better Treks like Voyager over the casual unthinking vandalism of DS9 any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Great post, I had something similar written but that'll do

 Bromsy wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Can't watch The Orville.

It's written by and stars He That Shall Not Be Named.

You're really just punishing yourself. The Orville is a fun, streamlined "highlights" version of TOS and TNG. Get past the first couple episodes, and the series takes off.

Agreed. I hate everything else he touches, but the orville is really good. It's best isn't as good as TNG at its best, but on average I think it's better. The first couple are rough though.

Same. The Orville feels more like star trek than any show I've seen in the past decade, and that includes Discovery.

They've gotten better at making the jokes land better in later episodes as well... Ed telling his security officer to buy more time with "inspections" for his guests, and her just pulling on some rubber gloves is hilarious. Or Ed flying outside in a shuttle just casually spying on someone, who then sees him, so he just flies away. Pretty funny stuff. The first episode or two was much rougher. It now seems like Star Trek with some humor sprinkled in, instead of a bad parody attempt.

Still cannot stick He That Shall Not Be Named.

That smug face. That stupid accent. The sheer ego.

But hey, that's reason for me not to watch the show, not anyone else. I'm not bashing it, just avoiding it like the plague on a poopy stick.

He does look smug most of the time, but you get to see him humbled enough to overcome that.

PS: I've worked retail; I don't even flinch at the plague on a poopy stick anymore.

 Ratius wrote:

It created Section 31

Great post, I had something similar written but that'll do

Wasn't Section 31 mentioned a few times in TNG?

and while I don't disagree with most of the rest of these posts, I think there's something to be said for the idea that a clean/sanitary utopia, as Trek portrays is rarely as clean as it looks.

I mean, history gives us plenty of examples of a clean/sanitary version of a story that is very different from certain realities. . . I mean, clean/sanitary WW2 history is "YAY!!! the allies won!", but the *real* history shows "ohh wait. . . the US was kinda, really gakky to POCs within its own country and the UK got up to some stuff with its colonials that it isn't very proud of"

So, I don't think of DS9 is so much of a "gakky centrist rebuttal" series pushing against the sterling ideals of TOS and TNG, I see it as more exploring what is the cost of attaining and upholding those ideals.

No, TNG never mentioned S13. They had Starfleet Intelligence.

Now if only a second character would mention Bureau 13 from Babylon 5 we'd really get somewhere.

I’ baffled by the notion that DS9 is the unthinking member of the Star Trek family. If anything every other Star Trek was unthinking, mostly falling on simple moral Aesops with little original thought in the mix (TNG and Enterprise imo were especially egregious in that way).

 LordofHats wrote:
I’ baffled by the notion that DS9 is the unthinking member of the Star Trek family. If anything every other Star Trek was unthinking, mostly falling on simple moral Aesops with little original thought in the mix (TNG and Enterprise imo were especially egregious in that way).

Yep... the simple cut and dry right and wrong of TNG and other treks can get a little tiresome, when the world is mostly shades of grey. In the Pale Moonlight is probably the greatest example of this from DS9... and probably one of the best trek episodes ever written.