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the_scotsman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not even a question of "they're too good!", it's that the Conscripts being as good as they were for the points cost was bad for the health of the game.

3 or 4 points is where Cultists(of the Chaos variety), Conscripts, or Gretchin should be. Maybe Genestealer Cult Neophytes...and you really should just be getting a body with a 6+ save and a crappy gun that gets no synergies or anything like that beyond a Stratagem aimed directly at them at that point.

I fundamentally disagree when the game is as expensive as it is, tbh. If I'm paying 4$ per model for GSC neophytes, I would much much rather they be around their current capabilities (GSC neophytes are honestly pretty balanced at the moment) or even slightly better for more ppm. the only real argument is like "these things need to be crap so the super duper races can be cleaving through them 20 at a time" but in reality, that just means nobody is going to be shelling out the cash to volunteer to play the crappy NPC race.

I'd wish GW would bring back 20 models a box for cannon fodder, like they once did for guardsmen. Needing to buy several boxes of fodder is daunting.

the_scotsman wrote:

I fundamentally disagree when the game is as expensive as it is, tbh. If I'm paying 4$ per model for GSC neophytes, I would much much rather they be around their current capabilities (GSC neophytes are honestly pretty balanced at the moment) or even slightly better for more ppm. the only real argument is like "these things need to be crap so the super duper races can be cleaving through them 20 at a time" but in reality, that just means nobody is going to be shelling out the cash to volunteer to play the crappy NPC race.

By that same vein, I feel like "my units should do X because I'm paying X per model" is a copout argument same as you seem to for fluff.

And really, the "argument" being made is that there should be an established pattern for the 'meat fodder' units. I've felt that the Neophytes should be in a box of 20 for awhile now, but we still haven't even gotten a damn Start Collecting set for GSC despite the codex actually giving us the exact contents of one!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I'd wish GW would bring back 20 models a box for cannon fodder, like they once did for guardsmen. Needing to buy several boxes of fodder is daunting.

Frankly, what needs to happen is they need to rejig Guardsmen into being something a tad more 'elite' without going too crazy.

And Conscripts need to be given their own kit. And it shouldn't be something that can easily double as Guardsmen.

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

I fundamentally disagree when the game is as expensive as it is, tbh. If I'm paying 4$ per model for GSC neophytes, I would much much rather they be around their current capabilities (GSC neophytes are honestly pretty balanced at the moment) or even slightly better for more ppm. the only real argument is like "these things need to be crap so the super duper races can be cleaving through them 20 at a time" but in reality, that just means nobody is going to be shelling out the cash to volunteer to play the crappy NPC race.

By that same vein, I feel like "my units should do X because I'm paying X per model" is a copout argument same as you seem to for fluff.

And really, the "argument" being made is that there should be an established pattern for the 'meat fodder' units. I've felt that the Neophytes should be in a box of 20 for awhile now, but we still haven't even gotten a damn Start Collecting set for GSC despite the codex actually giving us the exact contents of one!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I'd wish GW would bring back 20 models a box for cannon fodder, like they once did for guardsmen. Needing to buy several boxes of fodder is daunting.

Frankly, what needs to happen is they need to rejig Guardsmen into being something a tad more 'elite' without going too crazy.

And Conscripts need to be given their own kit. And it shouldn't be something that can easily double as Guardsmen.

The fluff is literally, in the real world, an accompanying narrative to sell plastic figures. It can, and does, change on a dime and vary tremendously between sources. Quick, how many hovercraft vehicles existed in the imperium of man one second before and one second after Games Workshop came out with a model for a new hover tank? "A space marine is an invincible superwarrior who should be able to fight a squillion guardsmen" sounds great, but create that ruleset and, even if a space marine were perfectly balanced against a squillion guardsmen, some kind of mysterious out-of-universe force would prevent anyone from ever acting out that scenario on the table.

The same force that mysteriously makes elite armies orders of magnitude more popular in local club scenes than hordes, even when hordes dominate the competitive game for months uninterrupted.

Proper Autarch kit

Warp Spider Exarch

Vect

Proper Archon kit

the_scotsman wrote:
Also, as a race, I can't think of anybody but GSC for whom "Assassination" is a common thematic element than Drukhari. Which is why it's so weird that the sole sniper weapon in the drukhari arsenal is an upgrade to an otherwise all-melee unit.

The Officio Assassinorum?

 Yarium wrote:
Lots of Factions don't get Snipers. Actually, I'd say it's what seems to most separate the "Order" factions from "Disorder". Order seems to get Snipers (Imperium, Eldar, T'au, Necrons, Harlequins), whereas Disorder seems not to (Tyranids, Orks, Chaos, Dark Eldar). The outliers, are the Sisters and GSC, as Sisters don't currently have sniper-flamers, and GSC do have some sniper characters. Of course, that just means that I would LOVE to see some of the Disorder factions get snipers! Tyranids don't need it, because that's the Lictor's job. Love the idea of an Ork Sniper whose sniper shots should be able to hit everything AROUND their target but still be likely to miss the target, and for sure Chaos should have an artifact or something that turns a Chaos Lord or Lieutenant or someone into a Sniper.

GSC are missing the Cult Limo, but I'm not pining for it. It would be nice for them to have access to some big guns without them needing to bring an Astra Militarum detachment of Brood Brothers. Same goes for some kind of anti-air defense.

Tyranids are missing a Lord of War. Makes no sense that they still don't have one.

oh god... i could see GW doing that with orks. choose a character... you have to hit on a 5, the on a roll of 1-5 you instead hit the closest friendly ork unit, but on a 6 you hit the target... also knowing GW they would cost the same as space marine scounts points wise while only having a 6+ armor and no survivability. "see we gave you guys snipers... why are ork players never happy... they are there see, and the rules are so fluffy"

While Guard still technically have Rough Riders... something similar that is infantry scale and moves quickly, since I doubt we’ll have them for long.

Something like the GSC bikes and quads would be excellent.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm curious why you would attribute Drukhari as a "Disorder" faction while necrons are an "Order" faction. Drukhari are extremely Lawful Evil. Also, as a race, I can't think of anybody but GSC for whom "Assassination" is a common thematic element than Drukhari. Which is why it's so weird that the sole sniper weapon in the drukhari arsenal is an upgrade to an otherwise all-melee unit.

I'm long in the tooth for 40k

Way back when, during the Eye of Terror Campaign, players were grouped into Order and Disorder. Order represented factions that wanted to see Abaddon fail during the 13th Black Crusade. Disorder represented those factions that wanted to see him succeed. Ever since, if I need to split 40k factions into two groups, those are the two. Interesting to note; Necrons were neither Order or Disorder during the campaign, and could file victories under either side. At the end of the campaign, Necrons made a surprise action to help the Imperium. I've loved how GW has run with the events of that campaign with how 8th edition has progressed the story.

the_scotsman wrote:

The fluff is literally, in the real world, an accompanying narrative to sell plastic figures. It can, and does, change on a dime and vary tremendously between sources. Quick, how many hovercraft vehicles existed in the imperium of man one second before and one second after Games Workshop came out with a model for a new hover tank? "A space marine is an invincible superwarrior who should be able to fight a squillion guardsmen" sounds great, but create that ruleset and, even if a space marine were perfectly balanced against a squillion guardsmen, some kind of mysterious out-of-universe force would prevent anyone from ever acting out that scenario on the table.

In fluff or on table? Because in fluff, we had quite a few examples of repulsor-tech/anti-grav stuff. Most of it wasn't really suitable for combat though.

The same force that mysteriously makes elite armies orders of magnitude more popular in local club scenes than hordes, even when hordes dominate the competitive game for months uninterrupted.

What are we defining as "elite armies"? Just low model count?

Because Knights and Custodes really shouldn't count in that regards, since those kits aren't really any cheaper than running a horde army that has a Start Collecting set available for one of the builds.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Lots of Factions don't get Snipers. Actually, I'd say it's what seems to most separate the "Order" factions from "Disorder". Order seems to get Snipers (Imperium, Eldar, T'au, Necrons, Harlequins), whereas Disorder seems not to (Tyranids, Orks, Chaos, Dark Eldar). The outliers, are the Sisters and GSC, as Sisters don't currently have sniper-flamers, and GSC do have some sniper characters. Of course, that just means that I would LOVE to see some of the Disorder factions get snipers! Tyranids don't need it, because that's the Lictor's job. Love the idea of an Ork Sniper whose sniper shots should be able to hit everything AROUND their target but still be likely to miss the target, and for sure Chaos should have an artifact or something that turns a Chaos Lord or Lieutenant or someone into a Sniper.

GSC are missing the Cult Limo, but I'm not pining for it. It would be nice for them to have access to some big guns without them needing to bring an Astra Militarum detachment of Brood Brothers. Same goes for some kind of anti-air defense.

Tyranids are missing a Lord of War. Makes no sense that they still don't have one.

oh god... i could see GW doing that with orks. choose a character... you have to hit on a 5, the on a roll of 1-5 you instead hit the closest friendly ork unit, but on a 6 you hit the target... also knowing GW they would cost the same as space marine scounts points wise while only having a 6+ armor and no survivability. "see we gave you guys snipers... why are ork players never happy... they are there see, and the rules are so fluffy"

Not that I play orks, but I’d think it would be more fitting if you could equip a Commando with a one-man tellyporta to make them assassins. Range 9”, uses Melee skill and attacks instead of Ballistic skill. Basically, the Ork teleports close to the target, makes a couple of attacks and then teleports away (you just don’t have to actually move the model).

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

The fluff is literally, in the real world, an accompanying narrative to sell plastic figures. It can, and does, change on a dime and vary tremendously between sources. Quick, how many hovercraft vehicles existed in the imperium of man one second before and one second after Games Workshop came out with a model for a new hover tank? "A space marine is an invincible superwarrior who should be able to fight a squillion guardsmen" sounds great, but create that ruleset and, even if a space marine were perfectly balanced against a squillion guardsmen, some kind of mysterious out-of-universe force would prevent anyone from ever acting out that scenario on the table.

In fluff or on table? Because in fluff, we had quite a few examples of repulsor-tech/anti-grav stuff. Most of it wasn't really suitable for combat though.

The same force that mysteriously makes elite armies orders of magnitude more popular in local club scenes than hordes, even when hordes dominate the competitive game for months uninterrupted.

What are we defining as "elite armies"? Just low model count?

Because Knights and Custodes really shouldn't count in that regards, since those kits aren't really any cheaper than running a horde army that has a Start Collecting set available for one of the builds.

orks start collectin gis just 10 boyz, w/ 1 nob. 5 nob squad, a painboy and a (useless) deffdred for $90. every list needs 90 boys pretty much without exception for orks. if start collecting boxes are the cheap way then orks need $810 for the 90 boys and for true horde orks they need 3x that.

vs jsut getting boyz boes at 35 a boz, those 90 boyz then run $315 (630 points) and for real green tide means $945 just for (1890 points)

compared to an elite army like custodes or knights that is not even close I have both a custodes and a imperial knights army, it was WAY cheaper than my orks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Lots of Factions don't get Snipers. Actually, I'd say it's what seems to most separate the "Order" factions from "Disorder". Order seems to get Snipers (Imperium, Eldar, T'au, Necrons, Harlequins), whereas Disorder seems not to (Tyranids, Orks, Chaos, Dark Eldar). The outliers, are the Sisters and GSC, as Sisters don't currently have sniper-flamers, and GSC do have some sniper characters. Of course, that just means that I would LOVE to see some of the Disorder factions get snipers! Tyranids don't need it, because that's the Lictor's job. Love the idea of an Ork Sniper whose sniper shots should be able to hit everything AROUND their target but still be likely to miss the target, and for sure Chaos should have an artifact or something that turns a Chaos Lord or Lieutenant or someone into a Sniper.

GSC are missing the Cult Limo, but I'm not pining for it. It would be nice for them to have access to some big guns without them needing to bring an Astra Militarum detachment of Brood Brothers. Same goes for some kind of anti-air defense.

Tyranids are missing a Lord of War. Makes no sense that they still don't have one.

oh god... i could see GW doing that with orks. choose a character... you have to hit on a 5, the on a roll of 1-5 you instead hit the closest friendly ork unit, but on a 6 you hit the target... also knowing GW they would cost the same as space marine scounts points wise while only having a 6+ armor and no survivability. "see we gave you guys snipers... why are ork players never happy... they are there see, and the rules are so fluffy"

I would love that, heck give snikrot that ability our sneakiest git.

Not that I play orks, but I’d think it would be more fitting if you could equip a Commando with a one-man tellyporta to make them assassins. Range 9”, uses Melee skill and attacks instead of Ballistic skill. Basically, the Ork teleports close to the target, makes a couple of attacks and then teleports away (you just don’t have to actually move the model).

 G00fySmiley wrote:

orks start collectin gis just 10 boyz, w/ 1 nob. 5 nob squad, a painboy and a (useless) deffdred for $90. every list needs 90 boys pretty much without exception for orks. if start collecting boxes are the cheap way then orks need $810 for the 90 boys and for true horde orks they need 3x that.

vs jsut getting boyz boes at 35 a boz, those 90 boyz then run $315 (630 points) and for real green tide means $945 just for (1890 points)

compared to an elite army like custodes or knights that is not even close I have both a custodes and a imperial knights army, it was WAY cheaper than my orks

Good thing I didn't say a single thing about Orks being a cheap setup, huh?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

orks start collectin gis just 10 boyz, w/ 1 nob. 5 nob squad, a painboy and a (useless) deffdred for $90. every list needs 90 boys pretty much without exception for orks. if start collecting boxes are the cheap way then orks need $810 for the 90 boys and for true horde orks they need 3x that.

vs jsut getting boyz boes at 35 a boz, those 90 boyz then run $315 (630 points) and for real green tide means $945 just for (1890 points)

compared to an elite army like custodes or knights that is not even close I have both a custodes and a imperial knights army, it was WAY cheaper than my orks

Good thing I didn't say a single thing about Orks being a cheap setup, huh?

"Because Knights and Custodes really shouldn't count in that regards, since those kits aren't really any cheaper than running a horde army that has a Start Collecting set available for one of the builds."

what horde boxes are there that are good?

Tyranids are 8 genestealers a trygon and a broodlord?
all the demons are often 10 chaff demons plus a few elites and an HQ
guard is 10 guardsman a leman russ, a heavy weapons team and a commisar

non of the start collecting lend themselves to making a good horde army anymore. they are mostly an HQ a heavy or elite and one troops squad. it is sad but alas there is not a cheap way to do a horde army anymore ... well other than 3d printing.

my point is you can't seriosly say that custodes or imperial knight cost even close to what a horde army does

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

The fluff is literally, in the real world, an accompanying narrative to sell plastic figures. It can, and does, change on a dime and vary tremendously between sources. Quick, how many hovercraft vehicles existed in the imperium of man one second before and one second after Games Workshop came out with a model for a new hover tank? "A space marine is an invincible superwarrior who should be able to fight a squillion guardsmen" sounds great, but create that ruleset and, even if a space marine were perfectly balanced against a squillion guardsmen, some kind of mysterious out-of-universe force would prevent anyone from ever acting out that scenario on the table.

In fluff or on table? Because in fluff, we had quite a few examples of repulsor-tech/anti-grav stuff. Most of it wasn't really suitable for combat though.

The same force that mysteriously makes elite armies orders of magnitude more popular in local club scenes than hordes, even when hordes dominate the competitive game for months uninterrupted.

What are we defining as "elite armies"? Just low model count?

Because Knights and Custodes really shouldn't count in that regards, since those kits aren't really any cheaper than running a horde army that has a Start Collecting set available for one of the builds.

That is oh so wrong. It is orders of magnitude cheaper to build a custode army than it is to build any kind of horde army, with the exception being maybe skitarii I guess? I was mostly thinking about Marines and DG, which are far and away the most popular armies where I play because they offer numerous super cheap options to build your army in the form of starter sets, cheap secondhand figs off ebay and Ezbuild kits.

The dollars to points ratio of pretty much any custode stuff is far better than what you get out of any of the horde armies' start collecting sets, plus there are several (nids, Orks, Daemons) Where their SC sets are very uncompetitive as well as being not great dollars to points.

Often a SC set screws you with one of the units contained and makes it not a useful buy after 1 or 2. There are a couple exceptions like SC Scions, SC Skitarii and SC tau but for the most part the characters aren't characters you want to spam and 1 or more of the units is just not good.

TS here, where do I even START?



Named characters could help, we only got 2, and one is a LoW.

More units of ACTUAL RUBRICS. other than base rubrics and scarab occult, there is nothing.

Spells who don't suck, and far more spells

Far more support for spellcasting, its silly codex marines got more and better than TS.

Psychic dreadnauts. we INVENTED the damn thing, why do BA have it and we don't?

Psychic snipers. chaos as a whole lacks snipers, and these were a heresy-era TS thing, might as well slot some here.

Some sort of FA unit, we only got 2 in the entire codex FFS and one is a CSM port.

A GODAMN LEGION TACTIC. the current one means there is no point taking any TS units beyond ahriman and princes, because the vast majority of the units (including some TS specific units!) are not effected AT ALL by it, and even the ones who do, are not greatly so. (+6 range is often meaningless for most spells, and the rubrics/scarabs have horrid spell seleciton anyway.)

Necrons...
1. Canoptek HQ Unit to represent Tomb Worlds where the proper Necrons haven't yet woken.
2. Pariahs. The Black Templars may hate Psykers, but the Necrons know how to shut them down hard. Would be nice to be able to participate in the Psychic Phase somehow.
3. Better transports.

AdMech
1. Skitarii HQ

T'au
1. More functional member species units (eg. Kroot, Vespid, etc)
2. A meaningful close combat unit (probably a member species)
3. A meaningful psyker unit (Kroot who ate Eldar? Niccosar? Any other psychic member species?)

ccs wrote:Hmm, lets see....

My Squats would like rules.

Ditto also Rules for Grendl & Gunnar from necromunda would be cool.

Also, I would like some Ynarri specific stuff or upgrade sprue.

More Admech only Knights, battle automata & a flyer. Maybe a Vorax equiv?

A new guard infantry squad..cough....cough....Steel Legion, Catachans,somethingto replace Cadians with. I need something to go with Severina Raine(only guard model I have).

Anything not currently planned for the the release of plastic Sororitas!

Orks are missing:

- A multipose/multipart Warboss kit. Seriously, how hard can this be? I am so tired of seeing BR-Warbosses.

- Characters with Options. Orks are individualists!

- Actual Character. Orks used to have funky Rules and Rules for kitbashed vehicles. The amount of zero-Option stuff is making me sad. Orks need funky and ded killy stuff which is as dangerous to the enemy as it is to themselves. The 8th ed Codex is just bland and boring.

Daemons:

Why cant every daemon subfaction have something shooty? If you're not playing tzeentch you basically only have 1-2 ranged Options. My nurgle daemons want some ooze vomiting Support!

Everything but Celestine until November.

The Custodes being the Talons of the Emperor and having the Sisters of Silence in the Codex, which could be called, Codex: Talons of the Emperor.

It could have all the Custode stuff presently released, the Sisters of Silence like 1 unit and then more stuff for the Sisters of Silence.

Morkphoiz wrote:
Daemons:

Why cant every daemon subfaction have something shooty? If you're not playing tzeentch you basically only have 1-2 ranged Options. My nurgle daemons want some ooze vomiting Support!

Exactly what I was thinking. Disease-spewing plaguebearers, elite bloodletters that can throw spears or other simple but deadly ranged weapons; the sky is the limit. Also, possessed CSM need ranged weapons as well. They use SM weapons in the lore, and one of the models even has a hand option for what looks to be a biological flamer of some type.

I echo the Nid Lord of War bit as well as the Necron transport problem.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

Morkphoiz wrote:
Daemons:

Why cant every daemon subfaction have something shooty? If you're not playing tzeentch you basically only have 1-2 ranged Options. My nurgle daemons want some ooze vomiting Support!

Exactly what I was thinking. Disease-spewing plaguebearers, elite bloodletters that can throw spears or other simple but deadly ranged weapons; the sky is the limit. Also, possessed CSM need ranged weapons as well. They use SM weapons in the lore, and one of the models even has a hand option for what looks to be a biological flamer of some type.

Daemons with hellforged assault rifles would be really cool, and make them really sci-fi daemons as opposed to sticking out like a sore thumb.

 Kanluwen wrote:

By that same vein, I feel like "my units should do X because I'm paying X per model" is a copout argument same as you seem to for fluff.

.

Okey, maybe not in all cases. But when a strike costs 20+pts and a better DW wet costs 20pts with a stormshield, then I think there is a problem with unit costs. Because either someone botched the weapon costs for all marine armies, or the base cost of a GK model is WAY overcosted. you can almost get 2 scout for 1 GK. and they have better rules, combo with a milion of rules sm have etc. A intercessor with 2W costs 17pts, you can get 3 for the cost of a single GK termintor. And that is 6 wounds vs 2, more shots, better stratagems etc. The person who wrote the GK point costs either was copy pasting them from somewhere, like the index for example, or had no idea what he was doing why writing the book, and he did the boke rules alone AND the design team boss didn't check the book before it went to print.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The Custodes being the Talons of the Emperor and having the Sisters of Silence in the Codex, which could be called, Codex: Talons of the Emperor.

It could have all the Custode stuff presently released, the Sisters of Silence like 1 unit and then more stuff for the Sisters of Silence.

they could also add SoS characters, which you could make from the stuff in their plastic box. GK get heros the same way.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Psychic snipers. chaos as a whole lacks snipers, and these were a heresy-era TS thing, might as well slot some here.

Not disagreeing with anything else, but in my experience TS are one of the best armies when it comes to taking apart characters. I lose more characters per turn to TS psychic powers than I do to eldar snipers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morkphoiz wrote:
Orks are missing:

- A multipose/multipart Warboss kit. Seriously, how hard can this be? I am so tired of seeing BR-Warbosses.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Orks-Warboss-Grukks-Boss-Mob-2018
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ork-Warboss-with-Big-Choppa

The reason you keep seeing AOBR warbosses is not the lack of models. It's because they are cheap to get on ebay. A new kit won't change that.

except a DW vet ISN'T better. a GK strike Marine has a force weapon, and brotherhood of psykers. those are things that has to be counted for points wise. is GW perhaps wrong to make them more expensvie then a simple stormshield? maaaybe. but you can't claim strike squads are just the same as DW vets

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The Custodes being the Talons of the Emperor and having the Sisters of Silence in the Codex, which could be called, Codex: Talons of the Emperor.

It could have all the Custode stuff presently released, the Sisters of Silence like 1 unit and then more stuff for the Sisters of Silence.

ooo forgot that one. I got 4 or 5 talons boxes (i forget) Sisters of Silence I assumed would be part of the army and it would be most of my troops and transports. Alas not though I have the custodes plus some bits to add axes and mostly magnetized for options btu the sisters while painted have not really left their case since 7th. I would love to throw in some lower point troops in there that are decent on thier own plus the psychic protection for the army.

BrianDavion wrote:
except a DW vet ISN'T better. a GK strike Marine has a force weapon, and brotherhood of psykers. those are things that has to be counted for points wise. is GW perhaps wrong to make them more expensvie then a simple stormshield? maaaybe. but you can't claim strike squads are just the same as DW vets

Strikes also have innate deep strike baked into their cost.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

Morkphoiz wrote:
Daemons:

Why cant every daemon subfaction have something shooty? If you're not playing tzeentch you basically only have 1-2 ranged Options. My nurgle daemons want some ooze vomiting Support!

Exactly what I was thinking. Disease-spewing plaguebearers, elite bloodletters that can throw spears or other simple but deadly ranged weapons; the sky is the limit. Also, possessed CSM need ranged weapons as well. They use SM weapons in the lore, and one of the models even has a hand option for what looks to be a biological flamer of some type.

Daemons with hellforged assault rifles would be really cool, and make them really sci-fi daemons as opposed to sticking out like a sore thumb.

I completely agree. Let's have some Doom-style daemons, and not just in terms of the lesser daemons. Having Bloodthirsters with weapons akin to what Knights are armed with would be awesome.

BrianDavion 779913 10561356 wrote:except a DW vet ISN'T better. a GK strike Marine has a force weapon, and brotherhood of psykers. those are things that has to be counted for points wise. is GW perhaps wrong to make them more expensvie then a simple stormshield? maaaybe. but you can't claim strike squads are just the same as DW vets

he never gets to used the force weapon though, because he is too slow and there is not enough points for transports. brother hood of psykers means little, because after you cast sanctuary on something big, gate on something big and astral aim on a dread or land raider, you run out of psychic powers to cast. Ah and if your refering to baby smite and shorter range as being a balance to free DW ammo, then I don't think both balance each other out.
And am not claiming that the DW vet is the same as a GK, he isn't. He is better. Just like two scouts are better then one strike. Or an intercessor is better then a strike, by virtue of doctrins and stratagems alone. Plus there is a ton of flexibility to a marine or DW army. If they end up nerfed, you can always take the same models and play it as some other sm chapter. With GK you can't count as them as anything, because no army in the game has the same WYSIWYG load outs.

Strikes also have innate deep strike baked into their cost.

yes on turn two. And for each point in strikes you need something of same cost on the board. So you better have the side of the table with the good cover and a slow army as opponent, because if they swarm objectives turn one, you maybe deep striking in to your own deployment. But you are right that the cost of deep strike is build in to GK models each one of them, and you can max deep strike half the army. Which means the other half is paying for something they can never use.

Daemons with hellforged assault rifles would be really cool, and make them really sci-fi daemons as opposed to sticking out like a sore thumb.

Wouldn't it have to mean the point cost of demon infantry ends up much higher then it is now. If plague bearers got range weapons they would be rather obnoxious, they are already run in every chaos list right now.