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 TedNugent wrote:


Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine, so I wouldn't go as far as daemon primarch Angron, but yes an Avatar is comparable enough to a Primarch which makes them comparable to a Greater Daemon.

Knowing the lore, an Avatar would just be a benchmark to establish the power level of coolness of DP Angron.

I thought it was a Wraithlord that Fulgrim killed rather than an Avatar? In one of the early Horus Heresy novels. Was a few years ago that I read it so could be mistaken, or was this a separate incident?

It's all pretty irrelevant when an unascended Lorgar demolished an Avatar. So a non-martial Primarch without huge amounts of daemonic stuff can do it.

An Avatar is basically a greater Daemon.

Not that any of this is particularly relevant to the topic and it's wandering back into lore discussion.

 Reavsie wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:


Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine, so I wouldn't go as far as daemon primarch Angron, but yes an Avatar is comparable enough to a Primarch which makes them comparable to a Greater Daemon.

Knowing the lore, an Avatar would just be a benchmark to establish the power level of coolness of DP Angron.

I thought it was a Wraithlord that Fulgrim killed rather than an Avatar? In one of the early Horus Heresy novels. Was a few years ago that I read it so could be mistaken, or was this a separate incident?

Definitely an Avatar of Khaine in the titular novel (Fulgrim) - he distracts it by throwing his sword up in the air before punching and choking it to death.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Reavsie wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:


Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine, so I wouldn't go as far as daemon primarch Angron, but yes an Avatar is comparable enough to a Primarch which makes them comparable to a Greater Daemon.

Knowing the lore, an Avatar would just be a benchmark to establish the power level of coolness of DP Angron.

I thought it was a Wraithlord that Fulgrim killed rather than an Avatar? In one of the early Horus Heresy novels. Was a few years ago that I read it so could be mistaken, or was this a separate incident?

Definitely an Avatar of Khaine in the titular novel (Fulgrim) - he distracts it by throwing his sword up in the air before punching and choking it to death.

How do you punch and choke a living metal statue?

With plot armor.

Sotahullu wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Reavsie wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:


Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine, so I wouldn't go as far as daemon primarch Angron, but yes an Avatar is comparable enough to a Primarch which makes them comparable to a Greater Daemon.

Knowing the lore, an Avatar would just be a benchmark to establish the power level of coolness of DP Angron.

I thought it was a Wraithlord that Fulgrim killed rather than an Avatar? In one of the early Horus Heresy novels. Was a few years ago that I read it so could be mistaken, or was this a separate incident?

Definitely an Avatar of Khaine in the titular novel (Fulgrim) - he distracts it by throwing his sword up in the air before punching and choking it to death.

How do you punch and choke a living metal statue?

That’s easy.

You use your spear to undo its ankle spout, then retreat to a safe distance.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Reavsie wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:


Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine, so I wouldn't go as far as daemon primarch Angron, but yes an Avatar is comparable enough to a Primarch which makes them comparable to a Greater Daemon.

Knowing the lore, an Avatar would just be a benchmark to establish the power level of coolness of DP Angron.

I thought it was a Wraithlord that Fulgrim killed rather than an Avatar? In one of the early Horus Heresy novels. Was a few years ago that I read it so could be mistaken, or was this a separate incident?

Definitely an Avatar of Khaine in the titular novel (Fulgrim) - he distracts it by throwing his sword up in the air before punching and choking it to death.

It's a very stupid part of a pretty stupid book.

I -really- appreciate that Jason and the Argonauts reference!

At this point an avatar is nowhere near a greater daemon. It's a glorified daemon prince with a meltagun sword until he decides to rerelease it as a giant knight sized 450pt lord of war that still somehow loses to every named character of every faction (like all other greater daemons do anyway)

You know you're in for a cool tension-filled setting when the following races have revival mechanics built in for their named characters:

-Nids
-Necrons
-Drukhari
-Chaos (daemon and marine)

And the following races don't

-Guard
-SM
-Tau
-eEldar

Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.

the_scotsman wrote:
Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.

Space Marines.

Beyond Guard and other Imperial groups, all the other races are NPC races. They exist to die in stories.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Reavsie wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:


Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine, so I wouldn't go as far as daemon primarch Angron, but yes an Avatar is comparable enough to a Primarch which makes them comparable to a Greater Daemon.

Knowing the lore, an Avatar would just be a benchmark to establish the power level of coolness of DP Angron.

I thought it was a Wraithlord that Fulgrim killed rather than an Avatar? In one of the early Horus Heresy novels. Was a few years ago that I read it so could be mistaken, or was this a separate incident?

Definitely an Avatar of Khaine in the titular novel (Fulgrim) - he distracts it by throwing his sword up in the air before punching and choking it to death.

Fulgrim does kill a Wraithlord first, but a little bit later he then kills a Avatar.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.

Space Marines.

Beyond Guard and other Imperial groups, all the other races are NPC races. They exist to die in stories.

thats not true... guard also exist to watch space marines and go "ooohh ahhh!" at the sight of them!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.

Space Marines.

Beyond Guard and other Imperial groups, all the other races are NPC races. They exist to die in stories.

Unfortunately true.
It really does feel like the current design team has no ideas when it comes to anything that's not marine.

the_scotsman wrote:
At this point an avatar is nowhere near a greater daemon. It's a glorified daemon prince with a meltagun sword until he decides to rerelease it as a giant knight sized 450pt lord of war that still somehow loses to every named character of every faction (like all other greater daemons do anyway)

You know you're in for a cool tension-filled setting when the following races have revival mechanics built in for their named characters:

-Nids
-Necrons
-Drukhari
-Chaos (daemon and marine)

And the following races don't

-Guard
-SM
-Tau
-eEldar

Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.

Perhaps nowadays but he is still using a dated miniature, the same could be said of the Keeper of Secrets until the new plastic kit was released.

The Avatar of Khaine needs a new plastic kit to be brought back in line to where he should be which is going toe to toe with a Bloodthirster just like back in 2nd edition when he was literally the toughest thing in the game.

To be fair Craftworld Eldar have 2 ways of reviving different characters in the form of The Avatar (via 3 command points) and an Artifact (Phoenix Gem).

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.

Space Marines.

Beyond Guard and other Imperial groups, all the other races are NPC races. They exist to die in stories.

Unfortunately true.
It really does feel like the current design team has no ideas when it comes to anything that's not marine.

I wasn't aware genestealer cults, Knights, and the admech, of of whom have gotten a release in the last year, where Marines.

BrianDavion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.

Space Marines.

Beyond Guard and other Imperial groups, all the other races are NPC races. They exist to die in stories.

Unfortunately true.
It really does feel like the current design team has no ideas when it comes to anything that's not marine.

I wasn't aware genestealer cults, Knights, and the admech, of of whom have gotten a release in the last year, where Marines.

Obviously someone had gotten repeative mental strain form the tedium of endless Marine releass and did something else before he was slapped back into line.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.

Space Marines.

Beyond Guard and other Imperial groups, all the other races are NPC races. They exist to die in stories.

Unfortunately true.
It really does feel like the current design team has no ideas when it comes to anything that's not marine.

As for the current focus on marines, well, I get why they try to make marines (actual infantry marines) appealing in 40k again. And I get why they wanted to ad a load of new miniatures to the most popular Faction.
I think the popularity of the Horus Heresy soap opera has proven its not worth to give the non marines to much focus (unless its titans ).

BrianDavion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.

Space Marines.

Beyond Guard and other Imperial groups, all the other races are NPC races. They exist to die in stories.

Unfortunately true.
It really does feel like the current design team has no ideas when it comes to anything that's not marine.

I wasn't aware genestealer cults, Knights, and the admech, of of whom have gotten a release in the last year, where Marines.

Pretty sure that's not what he meant.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Hmmm wonder who gw is setting up to win every fight in the more.

Space Marines.

Beyond Guard and other Imperial groups, all the other races are NPC races. They exist to die in stories.

Unfortunately true.
It really does feel like the current design team has no ideas when it comes to anything that's not marine.

I wasn't aware genestealer cults, Knights, and the admech, of of whom have gotten a release in the last year, where Marines.

Pretty sure that's not what he meant.

Yeah I'm talking about in-lore here.

All the obviously "evil aesthetic" factions in 40k have built-in systems in place such that their named characters can die and still be sold as miniatures by Games Workshop PLC. The "Good aesthetic" factions do not (Except for Saint Celestine, which rightfully earns her the reputation of the good character what gets killed when you need to establish a baddie is a badass). That sets up an obvious hierarchy of "who will win" when looking at in-lore fights.

Tier the Lowest: Any un-named character. "The tyranid swarm totes mcgotes killed like a dozen chapter masters. Chapter Master Steve Johnson of the Blood Whanglers! Chapter master Swazzle Brognole of the Blood avengers! The Whole Blood Knights chapter was wiped out - not the blood knights, beloved fan favorite!"

Tier the Middle: Any evil named character.

Tier the can lose but only non-fatally: any good named character.

Tier the never loses: Any marine named character.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Well you mean Emperor's Children hasn't got decent representation but for me Slaanesh daemons are fine and, as mentioned above, have just received a substantial release.

And from what I've seen, no one's talking about Slaaneshi Daemons. They're talking about Slaaneshi mortals, which would cover both the AoS side of things (so Slaaneshi units akin to Tzaangors, or Blood Reavers and so on) and the 40k side of things (full EC releases like the 1KSons and Death Guard got). Yes, Daemons are complete (except for a standard plastic Herald), but that's not really in question.

???

 Overread wrote:
Slaanesh got a big update but much of it was leaders/heroes in both AoS/40K. The actual troop side didn't get anything new added to it at all; though the fiends got a very nice update. I don't expect them to update deamonettes (the way they are deamonettes, seekers and chariots all interlink very nicely and to update one would require updating them all); but in both games Slaanesh has a very distinct lack of supporting models in anything but the leader category.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
CSM also received new models and Emperors Children are ultimately CSM.

You know that's bad reasoning.

No I don't think it is.

I think those who collect EC are also veryl likely collect Slaanesh daemons or at least have a few Slaanesh daemon units in their collection. So those players, from a marketing perspective are not going to be the focus for a while because they have likely spent their hobby money/disposable income on the Slaanesh daemons models released recently.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I just can't see it and I think other factions deserve the focus now.

It's hard to say that other factions need more focus when we're talking about a faction that hasn't had any focus on a long time (EC).

My faction has never had a focus in that case. I don't play Orks, I play Evil Sunz. Where's my codex and unique models at? Surely those sub factions that have never had anything deserve something first?

Tier the never loses: Any marine named character.

Cato Sicirus at Damnos comes to mind immediatly as a named Marine char whose been defeated.

I think the popularity of the Horus Heresy soap opera has proven its not worth to give the non marines to much focus (unless its titans ).

Amazing how not releasing new models leads to lower sales Only so many 20 years old Falcon gravtanks or 15yo Kroot one can buy before it gets boring

BrianDavion wrote:

Tier the never loses: Any marine named character.

Cato Sicirus at Damnos comes to mind immediatly as a named Marine char whose been defeated.

The fact that your "gotcha nerd" example here of some, any, space marine character of significance suffering even a non-fatal defeat (And winning the battle by blowing up the planet anyway lol) came from the time before Necron lore got retconned three game editions ago should tell you something about how much of a useful counter-point that is.

the_scotsman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Tier the never loses: Any marine named character.

Cato Sicirus at Damnos comes to mind immediatly as a named Marine char whose been defeated.

The fact that your "gotcha nerd" example here of some, any, space marine character of significance suffering even a non-fatal defeat (And winning the battle by blowing up the planet anyway lol) came from the time before Necron lore got retconned three game editions ago should tell you something about how much of a useful counter-point that is.

Yah Cato's defeat was actually a crushing victory by the time the story was finished. Does anyone else remember the time Cato took a vortex grenade pass from Marneus through the Necron defense and sank a three pointer winning the game with 0.0001 seconds left on the clock? Because I do and I hated it lol.

Cronch wrote:

I think the popularity of the Horus Heresy soap opera has proven its not worth to give the non marines to much focus (unless its titans ).

Amazing how not releasing new models leads to lower sales Only so many 20 years old Falcon gravtanks or 15yo Kroot one can buy before it gets boring

Conversely it's been about 12 years since I started a Tyranid army and I'm still buying Termagants and Hormagaunts.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Tier the never loses: Any marine named character.

Cato Sicirus at Damnos comes to mind immediatly as a named Marine char whose been defeated.

The fact that your "gotcha nerd" example here of some, any, space marine character of significance suffering even a non-fatal defeat (And winning the battle by blowing up the planet anyway lol) came from the time before Necron lore got retconned three game editions ago should tell you something about how much of a useful counter-point that is.

Yah Cato's defeat was actually a crushing victory by the time the story was finished. Does anyone else remember the time Cato took a vortex grenade pass from Marneus through the Necron defense and sank a three pointer winning the game with 0.0001 seconds left on the clock? Because I do and I hated it lol.

It's almost like Abandon didn't put Calgar in the hospital in the last campaign book, but I guess that a "gotcha nerd" example

 alextroy wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Tier the never loses: Any marine named character.

Cato Sicirus at Damnos comes to mind immediatly as a named Marine char whose been defeated.

The fact that your "gotcha nerd" example here of some, any, space marine character of significance suffering even a non-fatal defeat (And winning the battle by blowing up the planet anyway lol) came from the time before Necron lore got retconned three game editions ago should tell you something about how much of a useful counter-point that is.

Yah Cato's defeat was actually a crushing victory by the time the story was finished. Does anyone else remember the time Cato took a vortex grenade pass from Marneus through the Necron defense and sank a three pointer winning the game with 0.0001 seconds left on the clock? Because I do and I hated it lol.

It's almost like Abandon didn't put Calgar in the hospital in the last campaign book, but I guess that a "gotcha nerd" example

Calgar was still suffering from the injuries he sustained getting crushed by the door Guilliman slammed open before yelling "I'm HOOOOOOOME!"

The poor guy got flattened like a looney tune. You can't expect him to fight yabbadabba while flat.

And to think I came to this thread for News & Rumors. More the fool me.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
CSM also received new models and Emperors Children are ultimately CSM.

You know that's bad reasoning.

No I don't think it is.

I think those who collect EC are also veryl likely collect Slaanesh daemons or at least have a few Slaanesh daemon units in their collection. So those players, from a marketing perspective are not going to be the focus for a while because they have likely spent their hobby money/disposable income on the Slaanesh daemons models released recently.

You do realise that for Thousand Sons and Death Guard the daemons in their codex actually break their rules if included as anything other than summons? If they're taken in any other manner they're taken under the Chaos Daemons book and faction.

So what you're actually saying is "because you have a small chaos Daemons force and some generic chaos marine releases, you don't need kits or models for your own subfaction". Maybe Evil Sunz deserve a book or release as well, although I think you'd be hard pressed to tell me what different untis etc they have compared to the existing Ork list, where as Emperors Children has clearly defined differences and well laid out fluff detailing this. Hell, even if they gave them a plastic noise marine kit, that would be fair.

Dudeface wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
CSM also received new models and Emperors Children are ultimately CSM.

You know that's bad reasoning.

No I don't think it is.

I think those who collect EC are also veryl likely collect Slaanesh daemons or at least have a few Slaanesh daemon units in their collection. So those players, from a marketing perspective are not going to be the focus for a while because they have likely spent their hobby money/disposable income on the Slaanesh daemons models released recently.

You do realise that for Thousand Sons and Death Guard the daemons in their codex actually break their rules if included as anything other than summons? If they're taken in any other manner they're taken under the Chaos Daemons book and faction.

So what you're actually saying is "because you have a small chaos Daemons force and some generic chaos marine releases, you don't need kits or models for your own subfaction". Maybe Evil Sunz deserve a book or release as well, although I think you'd be hard pressed to tell me what different untis etc they have compared to the existing Ork list, where as Emperors Children has clearly defined differences and well laid out fluff detailing this. Hell, even if they gave them a plastic noise marine kit, that would be fair.

I remember the "focus" article for EC when the 2.0 codex was released. They used it to preveiw havocs and gave an embarresed explanation that the old resin upgrade actually fit the new marines kit. No, I dont think the new daemons was enough to make the EC players feel content and acknowledged.