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Banshees are basicly a soft meat wall for the exarch. The exarch in turn is supposed to use their special weapons to assassinate an enemy hero. Exactly the same MO as Scorps.

 Shadenuat wrote:
https://warhammerart.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Eldari-Warlock-Print-650x650.jpg

And yeah rogue trader era models kinda need update huh.

Despite having 6 beloved metal warlocks, i would love some new in plastic -provided they come in a box as a unit. They used to come in a box with a farseer, so I hope they are still entiteled to be sold as a unit.
AoS released a box of multiple weird gloomspite shamans, and I hold this as a promise of probability for a warlock unit.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Awesome thanks. I do hope the warlocks get an update, I love the idea of them, especially as I’m just starting an Ulthwé army.

Yeah you know what would be really ace, is if they didn't price the Warlocks with Character status who get 1 psychic power each, the same as the warlocks that DONT get character status and cast 1 psychic power per 2 models.

It'd be super chill if they were not 45ppm for 2W 4++ with 2 attacks with no AP. That's a reasonable price for a support piece with Character keyword making him essentially invincible, but for a dang unit it's highway robbery.

What would be nice is if they actually explored the seer path a bit more, like they did in 2nd Ed.

There were 3 levels of warlock and the farseer besides.


Within the path of the seer (or witch path) are several ways (equivalent to aspects): way of the warlock, way of spiritseer, way of the seer etc.

But no matter which one you follow, if you get trapped you become a farseer.

So imo, the squad of warlocks should be newbie warlocks and the least powerful.

You should then be able to take 1-3 warlock masters as a single choice, all of which act as separate characters with much better stats and more powers.

Farseers should be up near Phoenix lords in cost, so rare and powerful. The current farseer imo is 'just' a seer...

Hellebore wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Awesome thanks. I do hope the warlocks get an update, I love the idea of them, especially as I’m just starting an Ulthwé army.

Yeah you know what would be really ace, is if they didn't price the Warlocks with Character status who get 1 psychic power each, the same as the warlocks that DONT get character status and cast 1 psychic power per 2 models.

It'd be super chill if they were not 45ppm for 2W 4++ with 2 attacks with no AP. That's a reasonable price for a support piece with Character keyword making him essentially invincible, but for a dang unit it's highway robbery.

What would be nice is if they actually explored the seer path a bit more, like they did in 2nd Ed.

There were 3 levels of warlock and the farseer besides.


Within the path of the seer (or witch path) are several ways (equivalent to aspects): way of the warlock, way of spiritseer, way of the seer etc.

But no matter which one you follow, if you get trapped you become a farseer.

So imo, the squad of warlocks should be newbie warlocks and the least powerful.

You should then be able to take 1-3 warlock masters as a single choice, all of which act as separate characters with much better stats and more powers.

Farseers should be up near Phoenix lords in cost, so rare and powerful. The current farseer imo is 'just' a seer...

This would be awesome, the witch path really isn’t explored enough. A whole new section of magic units would be glorious. A troop choice, like a Dire Avengers equivalent would be super neat as the really basic warlocks, or if that seems a bit odd at least an elite squad variant.

I know it's not going to happen, but I'd love to see some more exploration of the incubi temples in the rules, maybe the addition of a Hierarch or an aspirant squad or something.

Hellebore wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Awesome thanks. I do hope the warlocks get an update, I love the idea of them, especially as I’m just starting an Ulthwé army.

Yeah you know what would be really ace, is if they didn't price the Warlocks with Character status who get 1 psychic power each, the same as the warlocks that DONT get character status and cast 1 psychic power per 2 models.

It'd be super chill if they were not 45ppm for 2W 4++ with 2 attacks with no AP. That's a reasonable price for a support piece with Character keyword making him essentially invincible, but for a dang unit it's highway robbery.

What would be nice is if they actually explored the seer path a bit more, like they did in 2nd Ed.

There were 3 levels of warlock and the farseer besides.


Within the path of the seer (or witch path) are several ways (equivalent to aspects): way of the warlock, way of spiritseer, way of the seer etc.

But no matter which one you follow, if you get trapped you become a farseer.

So imo, the squad of warlocks should be newbie warlocks and the least powerful.

You should then be able to take 1-3 warlock masters as a single choice, all of which act as separate characters with much better stats and more powers.

Farseers should be up near Phoenix lords in cost, so rare and powerful. The current farseer imo is 'just' a seer...

My own personal opinion is that Path of the Seer it's the only one the Eldar develop their psychic powers. A normal Eldar walking it and who it's deployed to fight (due already walked the Path of War) fights as Warlocks, if the Eldar get lost it becomes either a Farseer fixated in see the future or a Spiritseer fixated in see/revive the past trought dead ones memories.

From a gameplay perspective i'll boost Farseers psychic might, put Spiritseers in equal range but with a whole different psy discipline for Wraith armies and basic protection buffs for normal Eldars, and Warlocks changin their psychic rules to something simple like the capellan litanies for buffing single squads in the frontlines.

In a dream world Farseers and Warlocks would actually return to 2nd edition style, being competent warriors (having served in battle or traveled the path of the warrior, etc.) and have witchblades/singing spears which would actually do things (2+ to wound is utterly pointless in a game with armour saves).

I'd also dream of a generic three-figure box with which one could make Farseers, Spiritseers and Warlocks with all of the weapon options (similar to the Thousand Sons sorcerers box). You could include a heap of head options (gasp, even lady heads!), and a bunch of arms/weapons (even if you keep the same, incredibly limited wargear options). God forbid we give the players a reasonable kit instead of a handful of uninspiring monopose heroes.

This is a fantasy world I'm living in.

 Elbows wrote:
In a dream world Farseers and Warlocks would actually return to 2nd edition style, being competent warriors (having served in battle or traveled the path of the warrior, etc.) and have witchblades/singing spears which would actually do things (2+ to wound is utterly pointless in a game with armour saves).

Yes please!

 Elbows wrote:
In a dream world Farseers and Warlocks would actually return to 2nd edition style, being competent warriors (having served in battle or traveled the path of the warrior, etc.) and have witchblades/singing spears which would actually do things (2+ to wound is utterly pointless in a game with armour saves).

I'd also dream of a generic three-figure box with which one could make Farseers, Spiritseers and Warlocks with all of the weapon options (similar to the Thousand Sons sorcerers box). You could include a heap of head options (gasp, even lady heads!), and a bunch of arms/weapons (even if you keep the same, incredibly limited wargear options). God forbid we give the players a reasonable kit instead of a handful of uninspiring monopose heroes.

This is a fantasy world I'm living in.

This comment made me sad. I agree with everything said. So I too shall live in your fantasy world.

 Elbows wrote:
In a dream world Farseers and Warlocks would actually return to 2nd edition style, being competent warriors (having served in battle or traveled the path of the warrior, etc.) and have witchblades/singing spears which would actually do things (2+ to wound is utterly pointless in a game with armour saves).

I'd also dream of a generic three-figure box with which one could make Farseers, Spiritseers and Warlocks with all of the weapon options (similar to the Thousand Sons sorcerers box). You could include a heap of head options (gasp, even lady heads!), and a bunch of arms/weapons (even if you keep the same, incredibly limited wargear options). God forbid we give the players a reasonable kit instead of a handful of uninspiring monopose heroes.

This is a fantasy world I'm living in.

Can I apply for citizenship in your fantasy world, or at least a temporary travel visa? It sounds like a wonderful place...

I hate the exalted sorcerer box because instead of getting more diverse characters with different abilities like death guard we just get 3 of the same guy. The box was good in 7th when each sorcerer could take a whole different psychic lore.

Well to be fair psykers take a singular or perhaps 2 max powers these days so it's not a big deal because in most cases only 1 or 2 powers are worth taking anyway.

To fix this GW don't need to add more psychic trees, they need to make all of the powers in a tree useful.

nagash42 wrote:
I hate the exalted sorcerer box because instead of getting more diverse characters with different abilities like death guard we just get 3 of the same guy. The box was good in 7th when each sorcerer could take a whole different psychic lore.

So real. I wish Thousand Sons had more variety so much.

Model- wise the Exalted Sorcerer box was pretty sweet.

A psychic Eldar equivalent would be awesome.

Hell, make 'em like this for every faction's HQ and specialists!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Well to be fair psykers take a singular or perhaps 2 max powers these days so it's not a big deal because in most cases only 1 or 2 powers are worth taking anyway.

To fix this GW don't need to add more psychic trees, they need to make all of the powers in a tree useful.

He's talking about Thousand Sons, even if all of their powers were good, the marine side is likely to run out of powers to choose long before they run out of psykers (assuming someones actually running Rubrics).

 Imateria wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Well to be fair psykers take a singular or perhaps 2 max powers these days so it's not a big deal because in most cases only 1 or 2 powers are worth taking anyway.

To fix this GW don't need to add more psychic trees, they need to make all of the powers in a tree useful.

He's talking about Thousand Sons, even if all of their powers were good, the marine side is likely to run out of powers to choose long before they run out of psykers (assuming someones actually running Rubrics).

Grey Knights say pffft!

 Imateria wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Well to be fair psykers take a singular or perhaps 2 max powers these days so it's not a big deal because in most cases only 1 or 2 powers are worth taking anyway.

To fix this GW don't need to add more psychic trees, they need to make all of the powers in a tree useful.

He's talking about Thousand Sons, even if all of their powers were good, the marine side is likely to run out of powers to choose long before they run out of psykers (assuming someones actually running Rubrics).

Don't they have 2 trees?

That's double most armies.

 Elbows wrote:


I'd also dream of a generic three-figure box with which one could make Farseers, Spiritseers and Warlocks with all of the weapon options (similar to the Thousand Sons sorcerers box). You could include a heap of head options (gasp, even lady heads!),

This is a fantasy world I'm living in.

Tbh bare heads wouldnt make sense. I doubt a woman farseer would pop her ghosthelm off just to show people her feminine hair style.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Well to be fair psykers take a singular or perhaps 2 max powers these days so it's not a big deal because in most cases only 1 or 2 powers are worth taking anyway.

To fix this GW don't need to add more psychic trees, they need to make all of the powers in a tree useful.

He's talking about Thousand Sons, even if all of their powers were good, the marine side is likely to run out of powers to choose long before they run out of psykers (assuming someones actually running Rubrics).

Don't they have 2 trees?

That's double most armies.

when every troop choice you take is potentially a psyker I imagine you can still burn through em pretty fast.

let's take an average "battalion building block" (3 HQs and 3 troops)

A Space Marine army might be 1 Libarian 1 Captain, and 1 Leuitenant, and 3 squads of intercessors.

Meanwhile a 1K sons army might be 1 Sorcrer, 1 Exaulted Sorcrer, and a deamon prince. and 3 squads of Rubric Marines.

The Space Marines generate a grand total of.. 2 powers and can cast 1 per psykic phase.

1K sons meanwhile generate 9 powers and are casting 6 a turn. so even though they've got more powers to choose from an average 1K sons army is casting a LOT more spells.

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Well to be fair psykers take a singular or perhaps 2 max powers these days so it's not a big deal because in most cases only 1 or 2 powers are worth taking anyway.

To fix this GW don't need to add more psychic trees, they need to make all of the powers in a tree useful.

He's talking about Thousand Sons, even if all of their powers were good, the marine side is likely to run out of powers to choose long before they run out of psykers (assuming someones actually running Rubrics).

Don't they have 2 trees?

That's double most armies.

when every troop choice you take is potentially a psyker I imagine you can still burn through em pretty fast.

let's take an average "battalion building block" (3 HQs and 3 troops)

A Space Marine army might be 1 Libarian 1 Captain, and 1 Leuitenant, and 3 squads of intercessors.

Meanwhile a 1K sons army might be 1 Sorcrer, 1 Exaulted Sorcrer, and a deamon prince. and 3 squads of Rubric Marines.

The Space Marines generate a grand total of.. 2 powers and can cast 1 per psykic phase.

1K sons meanwhile generate 9 powers and are casting 6 a turn. so even though they've got more powers to choose from an average 1K sons army is casting a LOT more spells.

I'm not sure how often you play but a battalion is 2 HQ and 3 troops.

Either way perhaps their basic troop (and any other basic troop, for that matter) shouldn't be psykers or should have a limited and different set of powers to choose from?

Its seems to me that balancing a troop with innate psychic abilities and one such as grots is virtually impossible. Look at grey knights for reference.

A battalion is 2-3 HQs, and 3-6 troops. I choose 3 HQs because in a 2 HQ list your average space marine list is more apt to have a captain and a Lt rather then a libby.

as for basicly troops being psykers or not, To be honest, I don't disagree at all. say what you want about Mat Ward, but the way squad psyker powers worked for grey Knights in 5th I thought looked pretty solid. certainly better then what we have currently where psyker heavy armies mostly just spam smite

 Kennizard wrote:

 Elbows wrote:


I'd also dream of a generic three-figure box with which one could make Farseers, Spiritseers and Warlocks with all of the weapon options (similar to the Thousand Sons sorcerers box). You could include a heap of head options (gasp, even lady heads!),

This is a fantasy world I'm living in.

Tbh bare heads wouldnt make sense. I doubt a woman farseer would pop her ghosthelm off just to show people her feminine hair style.

In the Dawn of War games most female farseers seem to not be wearing helmets.

BrianDavion wrote:
A battalion is 2-3 HQs, and 3-6 troops. I choose 3 HQs because in a 2 HQ list your average space marine list is more apt to have a captain and a Lt rather then a libby.

as for basicly troops being psykers or not, To be honest, I don't disagree at all. say what you want about Mat Ward, but the way squad psyker powers worked for grey Knights in 5th I thought looked pretty solid. certainly better then what we have currently where psyker heavy armies mostly just spam smite

Well the problem is inherent I think - they [psychic units] can be one of the most valuable resources in the game (if they're able to use all of their abilities including denying other powers) or they can be completely pointless (if they fail to deny and get their powers off). That swing is what causes them to be limited in use for a troops choice, in my opinion.

Allow psychic 'troops' a different, more limited and weaker psychic list to choose from, do not give them the ability to deny psychic powers and then price them appropriately.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
A battalion is 2-3 HQs, and 3-6 troops. I choose 3 HQs because in a 2 HQ list your average space marine list is more apt to have a captain and a Lt rather then a libby.

as for basicly troops being psykers or not, To be honest, I don't disagree at all. say what you want about Mat Ward, but the way squad psyker powers worked for grey Knights in 5th I thought looked pretty solid. certainly better then what we have currently where psyker heavy armies mostly just spam smite

Well the problem is inherent I think - they [psychic units] can be one of the most valuable resources in the game (if they're able to use all of their abilities including denying other powers) or they can be completely pointless (if they fail to deny and get their powers off). That swing is what causes them to be limited in use for a troops choice, in my opinion.

Allow psychic 'troops' a different, more limited and weaker psychic list to choose from, do not give them the ability to deny psychic powers and then price them appropriately.

which, IIRC (it's been awhile) what they did with 5E grey knights. each unit got a specific psykic p[ower it could use to buff itself with. it also really allowed GK infantry to be much more unique.

Voss wrote:
Eh. DCA seem a little overtuned in the beta codex for 17 point models. Banshees don't need to be rocking 4 attacks each at strength 4, especially with inflicting no overwatch and hit penalties, and a big charge bonus.

Besides the N&R seems a bad place for that kind of comparison, especially with a non-final version of the DCA rules.

DCA have been having stronger profile than Banshees for, what, 5 editions now? Tell me about how it's a beta codex…

 Elbows wrote:
In a dream world Farseers and Warlocks would actually return to 2nd edition style, being competent warriors (having served in battle or traveled the path of the warrior, etc.) and have witchblades/singing spears which would actually do things (2+ to wound is utterly pointless in a game with armour saves).

Warlocks are perhaps not very competetive, but they are absolutely not useless. Mixed with jinx (-1 to enemy armour rolls) that 2+ to wound and d3 damage can do some real damage for elite units. the warlocks 4++ also make them stand their ground for long enough to take out enemy heroes that think the elves in dresses are easy prey.


Back in 4-5th edition when I started to collect Eldar their game was all about synergy -almost no units were good by them self, but in a well coordinated attack they did wonders.
Avengers shot out most of a unit and aspects moved in to mop up the rest of the unit. all supported by a seer.
Now we have wraith blades that really make all other cc options pointless.

Conclave is overpriced and doesn't have enough attacks or durability, and no sane Eldar player would use Doom or Jinx in melee because these powers are much better used to focus enemy units with shooting attacks.

Eldar in 4th were good by themselves, when their Codex came out, then gradually became worse and worse until it was basically Scatterwalkers and Jetcouncil. Neither they were op in 5th.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Conclave is overpriced and doesn't have enough attacks or durability, and no sane Eldar player would use Doom or Jinx in melee because these powers are much better used to focus enemy units with shooting attacks.

Eldar in 4th were good by themselves, when their Codex came out, then gradually became worse and worse until it was basically Scatterwalkers and Jetcouncil. Neither they were op in 5th.

Don't forget "Cheeserpents" - few other people will.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Conclave is overpriced and doesn't have enough attacks or durability, and no sane Eldar player would use Doom or Jinx in melee because these powers are much better used to focus enemy units with shooting attacks.

Eldar in 4th were good by themselves, when their Codex came out, then gradually became worse and worse until it was basically Scatterwalkers and Jetcouncil. Neither they were op in 5th.

Don't forget "Cheeserpents" - few other people will.

Look, I was going through some serious stuff, it was years ago, and I’ve since mastered personal hygiene.

 Kennizard wrote:

 Elbows wrote:


I'd also dream of a generic three-figure box with which one could make Farseers, Spiritseers and Warlocks with all of the weapon options (similar to the Thousand Sons sorcerers box). You could include a heap of head options (gasp, even lady heads!),

This is a fantasy world I'm living in.

Tbh bare heads wouldnt make sense. I doubt a woman farseer would pop her ghosthelm off just to show people her feminine hair style.

Yeah, it's not like best, most recent farseer design has bare he--


Oh wait

 Elbows wrote:

 Galas wrote:
This is 8th.

If you aren't Ork Boyzs level of number of attacks per points you are worthless as a meele unit.

This is more or less the problem. Special rules and slightly better armour/weapons simply do not compensate for cost+number of attacks. GW basically screwed this element up in the game as a whole and have yet to fix it (and I don't think they will). A 11-12 point Banshee with two strength 3 attacks...is simply worse than a 7 point model with 3-7 attacks. Armour and weapons do not matter enough to balance out that equation.

Banshees speed, denial of overwatch etc...still doesn't make up for spending 107 points on eight Toughness 3 models with 4+ armour who die to a stiff breeze. The fundamental focus of extra attacks, extra re-rolls, extra fighting or shooting phases, etc. is wildly overdone in 40K at the moment, turning the game into mass dice over any form of quality/elite unit potential.

There's also the issue of fallback with little to no consequence. I want to petition for a new rule where you get basically Overwatch hits sorta except with melee of course.