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Yea I think the box is intended to be a Ynnari force in a box so if you only play Craftworld or only play Dark eldar it’s obviously not going to be as good value. I don’t know what was expected either? Excluding a box with only new models (that we knew wasn’t going to happen) GW were always going to put older models that aren’t selling in there. This isn’t a new tactic - they’ve done it for years. I don’t think there was ever a chance they just put the new models in a set either. Apart from Shadowspear it’s never been done.

The complaints around attacks I understand for Jain Zar but not for Banshees - they don’t have the number of attacks on their profile because their weapons have decent AP whereas units (such as Boys) that spit out a ton of attacks have none. Not unlike Bloodletters.

We don’t know the entire picture yet - it’s disappointing that points costs haven’t been changed but I suspect that’s what CA is for. There could be a ton of new rules that make Banshees (among other things aka - Falcon, Vyper, Scourges etc) worth taking. One decent stratagem is all it takes. Let’s hold the lamentations back until we’ve seen the entire picture shall we?

Do things look bleak in terms of rules? Yes. Could things be great when we see the entire book? Also yes. This thread could do with a salt reduction I think.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea I think the box is intended to be a Ynnari force in a box so if you only play Craftworld or only play Dark eldar it’s obviously not going to be as good value. I don’t know what was expected either? Excluding a box with only new models (that we knew wasn’t going to happen) GW were always going to put older models that aren’t selling in there. This isn’t a new tactic - they’ve done it for years. I don’t think there was ever a chance they just put the new models in a set either. Apart from Shadowspear it’s never been done.

Boxes don't have one side anyway. This is actually unusually good in that you CAN play them together. But last time I checked there's no way to use both ad mech, knights and necrons together. Or space wolves and genestealer cult. Or number of other combos.

(oh and primaris and chaos aren't exactly allies either)

tneva82 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea I think the box is intended to be a Ynnari force in a box so if you only play Craftworld or only play Dark eldar it’s obviously not going to be as good value. I don’t know what was expected either? Excluding a box with only new models (that we knew wasn’t going to happen) GW were always going to put older models that aren’t selling in there. This isn’t a new tactic - they’ve done it for years. I don’t think there was ever a chance they just put the new models in a set either. Apart from Shadowspear it’s never been done.

Boxes don't have one side anyway. This is actually unusually good in that you CAN play them together. But last time I checked there's no way to use both ad mech, knights and necrons together. Or space wolves and genestealer cult. Or number of other combos.

(oh and primaris and chaos aren't exactly allies either)

There have been plenty of boxes where you can use both halves in one army. Marines are a good example if you fancied getting fluffy (even played some Raven Guard Alpha Legion last night to reinforce my point!).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea I think the box is intended to be a Ynnari force in a box so if you only play Craftworld or only play Dark eldar it’s obviously not going to be as good value. I don’t know what was expected either? Excluding a box with only new models (that we knew wasn’t going to happen) GW were always going to put older models that aren’t selling in there. This isn’t a new tactic - they’ve done it for years. I don’t think there was ever a chance they just put the new models in a set either. Apart from Shadowspear it’s never been done.

The complaints around attacks I understand for Jain Zar but not for Banshees - they don’t have the number of attacks on their profile because their weapons have decent AP whereas units (such as Boys) that spit out a ton of attacks have none. Not unlike Bloodletters.

We don’t know the entire picture yet - it’s disappointing that points costs haven’t been changed but I suspect that’s what CA is for. There could be a ton of new rules that make Banshees (among other things aka - Falcon, Vyper, Scourges etc) worth taking. One decent stratagem is all it takes. Let’s hold the lamentations back until we’ve seen the entire picture shall we?

Do things look bleak in terms of rules? Yes. Could things be great when we see the entire book? Also yes. This thread could do with a salt reduction I think.

Actually Dark Imperium was all new stuff too. but you're absolutely right that it's very much a case of "exceptions not the rules". In fact 40k Box sets are predictable. New models. often monopose, with a mix of old stuff, that acts as a sort of "preview" of new plastic multipose kits that we, hopefully, receive at a later date.

BrianDavion wrote:
ad chances are if banshees where squads of 10 before, we'll see their new data sheet being size 5-10

They are already 5-10, you just never seen them played as a 5-man unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea I think the box is intended to be a Ynnari force in a box so if you only play Craftworld or only play Dark eldar it’s obviously not going to be as good value. I don’t know what was expected either? Excluding a box with only new models (that we knew wasn’t going to happen) GW were always going to put older models that aren’t selling in there. This isn’t a new tactic - they’ve done it for years. I don’t think there was ever a chance they just put the new models in a set either. Apart from Shadowspear it’s never been done.

The complaints around attacks I understand for Jain Zar but not for Banshees - they don’t have the number of attacks on their profile because their weapons have decent AP whereas units (such as Boys) that spit out a ton of attacks have none. Not unlike Bloodletters.

We don’t know the entire picture yet - it’s disappointing that points costs haven’t been changed but I suspect that’s what CA is for. There could be a ton of new rules that make Banshees (among other things aka - Falcon, Vyper, Scourges etc) worth taking. One decent stratagem is all it takes. Let’s hold the lamentations back until we’ve seen the entire picture shall we?

Do things look bleak in terms of rules? Yes. Could things be great when we see the entire book? Also yes. This thread could do with a salt reduction I think.

While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.

Kdash wrote:

While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.

This is exactly what I believe they're going to do. Its the classic 'two enemies must become bros to defeat the bigger, nastier threat'. Which GW have said is effectively the plot of Phoenix Rising right? Blood of Phoenix is the beef between Jain and Draz. Phoenix Rising is them banding together with Ynnari to defeat a greater threat.

maybe he kills her but ynnead resurrects her? not a massive u-turn, just in line with GW wanting to "unite" all of the Aeldari.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Kdash wrote:

While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.

This is exactly what I believe they're going to do. Its the classic 'two enemies must become bros to defeat the bigger, nastier threat'. Which GW have said is effectively the plot of Phoenix Rising right? Blood of Phoenix is the beef between Jain and Draz. Phoenix Rising is them banding together with Ynnari to defeat a greater threat.

If they pull off that story, I don't know what to make of the Dark Eldar vs Eldar fued. Yvraine stepping in after 10k years and sorting out the problems since the fall is something I dislike about Ynnari fluff.

Ynnari happening and thus stuff actually happening in the Eldar background and Eldar fluff no longer being mainly about boring gak thousands of years ago that nobody cares about and has no bearing on Eldar storylines, narrative campaigns and the developments in “contemporary” 40K was the first time Eldar became interesting since Ultrammarines had an Half-Eldar Librarian.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Kdash wrote:

While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.

This is exactly what I believe they're going to do. Its the classic 'two enemies must become bros to defeat the bigger, nastier threat'. Which GW have said is effectively the plot of Phoenix Rising right? Blood of Phoenix is the beef between Jain and Draz. Phoenix Rising is them banding together with Ynnari to defeat a greater threat.

If they pull off that story, I don't know what to make of the Dark Eldar vs Eldar fued. Yvraine stepping in after 10k years and sorting out the problems since the fall is something I dislike about Ynnari fluff.

I don't see Yvraine so much as stepping in as DE and CWE having substantial elements who feel trapped in one or the other society and don't really like eaither choice being willing to take a gamble on the. Kinda like folks, in a two party system who get tired of both parties and suddenly a third party option with a decently charismatic leader and a reasonably appealing platform pops up. (apologies for the politcal analogy we've a election going on in my country)

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea I think the box is intended to be a Ynnari force in a box

A Ynnari box featuring 2 characters, neither of which can be taken as Ynnari.

Peak GW.

Well seeing GW isn't saying this box is intended as ynnari force...

tneva82 wrote:
Well seeing GW isn't saying this box is intended as ynnari force...

I 'd bet they were allready finished with the box, threw the hq in it and hiked the price up.

Pretty sure GW said that it's great for collecting both forces in an article this week.

They don't have to spell things out for the box to be a Ynnari starter, especially when you see loads of Incubi as Ynnari.

Jain Zarr is already pro-Ynnari, maybe Drazhar will have a change of heart.

Draz and Jain trying to kill each other, but end up K.I.S.S.I.N.G
Turns out Arhra-Draz was just heartbroken, and even turns out it was all because of a misunderstanding. All revealed in a snappy conversation while they duel.
-the day hollywood came to nothingham

Draz and Jain trying to kill each other, but end up K.I.S.S.I.N.G

Hahaha great stuff

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The complaints around attacks I understand for Jain Zar but not for Banshees - they don’t have the number of attacks on their profile because their weapons have decent AP whereas units (such as Boys) that spit out a ton of attacks have none. Not unlike Bloodletters.

That would be accurate if Banshees weren't twice more expensive and had 2 less Strength.
And were Troops.

If I was still big into Eldar I'd buy this box and keep everything - the DE models I don't have many of and a spare falcon/vyper isn't the worst to have lying around. But Tyranids are my main thing so I'll pass and pick up a kit or two when they are available separately. I they do a Tyranid vs Blood Angels box I'll buy the box and sell the Angels- the eldar box looks better from that point of view as a broad "eldar fan" could keep both sides and elements at least could fit into a combined Ynnari force. [Basically I would like to expand my eldar but I don't want to drop that much on a big set- I would for my Tyranids- but I don't think its a bad box -these things always have older kits them.]

 silverstu wrote:
If I was still big into Eldar I'd buy this box and keep everything - the DE models I don't have many of and a spare falcon/vyper isn't the worst to have lying around. But Tyranids are my main thing so I'll pass and pick up a kit or two when they are available separately. I they do a Tyranid vs Blood Angels box I'll buy the box and sell the Angels- the eldar box looks better from that point of view as a broad "eldar fan" could keep both sides and elements at least could fit into a combined Ynnari force. [Basically I would like to expand my eldar but I don't want to drop that much on a big set- I would for my Tyranids- but I don't think its a bad box -these things always have older kits them.]

Ehhh. Death Masque wasn't that long ago, and that was all new kits (and also a functional army by itself). Comparing it to Blood of the Phoenix just makes it look like an even more incredible deal than it did at the time.

 Shadenuat wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The complaints around attacks I understand for Jain Zar but not for Banshees - they don’t have the number of attacks on their profile because their weapons have decent AP whereas units (such as Boys) that spit out a ton of attacks have none. Not unlike Bloodletters.

That would be accurate if Banshees weren't twice more expensive and had 2 less Strength.
And were Troops.

Yeah, except that even against the sorts of targets that Banshees are supposed to be better against (MEQ) blunt-force units like choppa boyz still solidly outperform them. Equal points of choppa boyz do over twice as much damage vs MEQ than Banshees do.

Bloodletters are a similar example of a terrible unit. They're better than banshees, but they are still terrible!

the_scotsman wrote:

kingheff wrote:
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.

Asurmen dies in two rounds after getting Calgar to just past half hp.

Fuehan does worse but lasts the same number of rounds.

I'd forgotten about how much of a buff gravis Calgar got, but I did a few test battles and whoever charges usually loses in a Calgar Vs asurman fight. With asurman it's a bit swingy due to his mortal wounds potential. Fuegan needs luck on his side to prevail however.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless the phoenix lords get exarch powers, which they definitely should since they're the creators of the aspects.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Pretty sure GW said that it's great for collecting both forces in an article this week.

They don't have to spell things out for the box to be a Ynnari starter, especially when you see loads of Incubi as Ynnari.

Jain Zarr is already pro-Ynnari, maybe Drazhar will have a change of heart.

The problem here is that the Ynnari rules specifically say that no named characters can be Ynnari (other than the obvious 3) so Drazhar and Jain Zar can never be used in an Ynnari detachment.

 Burnage wrote:

 silverstu wrote:
If I was still big into Eldar I'd buy this box and keep everything - the DE models I don't have many of and a spare falcon/vyper isn't the worst to have lying around. But Tyranids are my main thing so I'll pass and pick up a kit or two when they are available separately. I they do a Tyranid vs Blood Angels box I'll buy the box and sell the Angels- the eldar box looks better from that point of view as a broad "eldar fan" could keep both sides and elements at least could fit into a combined Ynnari force. [Basically I would like to expand my eldar but I don't want to drop that much on a big set- I would for my Tyranids- but I don't think its a bad box -these things always have older kits them.]

Ehhh. Death Masque wasn't that long ago, and that was all new kits (and also a functional army by itself). Comparing it to Blood of the Phoenix just makes it look like an even more incredible deal than it did at the time.

Guardians and the wave serpent weren't new kits and the wraithguard kit was newish but not exclusive the set. But yes that was a brilliant and much better set- you still had to shift the marine side though. Blood of the Phoenix is an alright set but not an "OMG I must get this " set- I could see why people would still want it especially if they collect both eldar factions and are collectors rather than serious gamers as its a good of models on discount. But I think that is the point- the box isn't for everyone and will be a limited release - probably a strategy to offset their production limitations?

 silverstu wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

 silverstu wrote:
If I was still big into Eldar I'd buy this box and keep everything - the DE models I don't have many of and a spare falcon/vyper isn't the worst to have lying around. But Tyranids are my main thing so I'll pass and pick up a kit or two when they are available separately. I they do a Tyranid vs Blood Angels box I'll buy the box and sell the Angels- the eldar box looks better from that point of view as a broad "eldar fan" could keep both sides and elements at least could fit into a combined Ynnari force. [Basically I would like to expand my eldar but I don't want to drop that much on a big set- I would for my Tyranids- but I don't think its a bad box -these things always have older kits them.]

Ehhh. Death Masque wasn't that long ago, and that was all new kits (and also a functional army by itself). Comparing it to Blood of the Phoenix just makes it look like an even more incredible deal than it did at the time.

Guardians and the wave serpent weren't new kits and the wraithguard kit was newish but not exclusive the set. But yes that was a brilliant and much better set- you still had to shift the marine side though. Blood of the Phoenix is an alright set but not an "OMG I must get this " set- I could see why people would still want it especially if they collect both eldar factions and are collectors rather than serious gamers as its a good of models on discount. But I think that is the point- the box isn't for everyone and will be a limited release - probably a strategy to offset their production limitations?

You're thinking of Wake the Dead. Death Masque was Harlequins versus Deathwatch, and on the Eldar side alone you had one special character (Eldrad), two units of six Players, another character (the Death Jester), two bikes around the same size as Vypers (Skyweavers) and a transport vehicle (Starweaver).

Already that's looking more impressive than Blood of the Phoenix, and that's before you take into account a) those were all new plastic models, and b) Death Masque was £95 instead of £140. It's a bad sign that this is so weak in comparison to both other recent Aeldari box sets.

 silverstu wrote:


Guardians and the wave serpent weren't new kits and the wraithguard kit was newish but not exclusive the set. But yes that was a brilliant and much better set- you still had to shift the marine side though. Blood of the Phoenix is an alright set but not an "OMG I must get this " set- I could see why people would still want it especially if they collect both eldar factions and are collectors rather than serious gamers as its a good of models on discount. But I think that is the point- the box isn't for everyone and will be a limited release - probably a strategy to offset their production limitations?

That's not Death Masque, all of these are 150$USD btw.

kingheff wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

kingheff wrote:
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.

Asurmen dies in two rounds after getting Calgar to just past half hp.

Fuehan does worse but lasts the same number of rounds.

I'd forgotten about how much of a buff gravis Calgar got, but I did a few test battles and whoever charges usually loses in a Calgar Vs asurman fight. With asurman it's a bit swingy due to his mortal wounds potential. Fuegan needs luck on his side to prevail however.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless the phoenix lords get exarch powers, which they definitely should since they're the creators of the aspects.

Asurmen: WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W6 A5 SV2+
3++ invuln, S+1 Ap-3 Dd3 melee weapon with D3 mw's on 6 to wound.

Calgar: WS2+ BS2+ S4 T5 W8 A6 Sv2+
4++ invuln, damage halved round up, Sx2 Ap-3 Dd3 melee weapon, rerolls his own to hit rolls.

Assume Asurmen charges. His weapon does 2 wounds 1/3 of the time, 1 wound 2/3 of the time, and an average of 2 MW's on a 6. This puts him at an average of 2.8 wounds dealt to calgar.

Calgar just punches for 3.2 unsaved wounds.

If asurmen charged, then the next round will take place on the marine player's turn so calgar gets to fight first. Calgar hits again for 3.2 unsaved wounds, killing asurmen with average rolls. If Calgar charged, then Asurmen does better, dealing another 2.8 wounds. So Asurmen will at best deal between 5/8 and 6/8 of calgar's wounds before dying.

Versus any Pheonix lord with no invuln save, calgar's 6 attacks deal 6.5 damage on average. This means the only other pheonix lord that can even survive one round against him is fuegan, who does less damage than Asurmen manages.

you're just talking out your butt here, my dude, marine characters are just consistently better than Eldar characters. hand a random captain a thunder hammer and storm shield and he kills Asurmen with average rolls if he fights first the second round, and one-hit KO's any other pheonix lord besides fuegan.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Burnage wrote:

 silverstu wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

 silverstu wrote:
If I was still big into Eldar I'd buy this box and keep everything - the DE models I don't have many of and a spare falcon/vyper isn't the worst to have lying around. But Tyranids are my main thing so I'll pass and pick up a kit or two when they are available separately. I they do a Tyranid vs Blood Angels box I'll buy the box and sell the Angels- the eldar box looks better from that point of view as a broad "eldar fan" could keep both sides and elements at least could fit into a combined Ynnari force. [Basically I would like to expand my eldar but I don't want to drop that much on a big set- I would for my Tyranids- but I don't think its a bad box -these things always have older kits them.]

Ehhh. Death Masque wasn't that long ago, and that was all new kits (and also a functional army by itself). Comparing it to Blood of the Phoenix just makes it look like an even more incredible deal than it did at the time.

Guardians and the wave serpent weren't new kits and the wraithguard kit was newish but not exclusive the set. But yes that was a brilliant and much better set- you still had to shift the marine side though. Blood of the Phoenix is an alright set but not an "OMG I must get this " set- I could see why people would still want it especially if they collect both eldar factions and are collectors rather than serious gamers as its a good of models on discount. But I think that is the point- the box isn't for everyone and will be a limited release - probably a strategy to offset their production limitations?

You're thinking of Wake the Dead. Death Masque was Harlequins versus Deathwatch, and on the Eldar side alone you had one special character (Eldrad), two units of six Players, another character (the Death Jester), two bikes around the same size as Vypers (Skyweavers) and a transport vehicle (Starweaver).

Already that's looking more impressive than Blood of the Phoenix, and that's before you take into account a) those were all new plastic models, and b) Death Masque was £95 instead of £140. It's a bad sign that this is so weak in comparison to both other recent Aeldari box sets.

Not to mention the new deathwatch vets kit, a deathwatch upgrade kit, and a unit of vanguard vets. Death Masque was the best box set GW has ever put out.

Damn, I never did get Death Masque (but I do now play both those armies), but that is a fantastic box set, with units you will absolutely use.

GW box set before they go full "beat this year profit record" are all great as long as I can remember.

Actually that's their new motto now.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Kdash wrote:

While i can see it potentially being a Ynnari box idea, they will need to do something massive with the lore in the box campaign book to make it so. Currently Drahzar's aim is to kill a Phoenix Lord, not ally himself with the 1 Phoenix Lord most associated with the Ynnari. I feel like it would need a massive u-turn to have the outcome of this box as being narratively Ynnari.

This is exactly what I believe they're going to do. Its the classic 'two enemies must become bros to defeat the bigger, nastier threat'. Which GW have said is effectively the plot of Phoenix Rising right? Blood of Phoenix is the beef between Jain and Draz. Phoenix Rising is them banding together with Ynnari to defeat a greater threat.

If they pull off that story, I don't know what to make of the Dark Eldar vs Eldar fued. Yvraine stepping in after 10k years and sorting out the problems since the fall is something I dislike about Ynnari fluff.

Thats a big confusion many people has with 40k and old fantasy.

Eldar and Dark Eldar ARE NOT High Elves and Dark Elves from Fantasy. Their separation doesnt come from a big civil war that destroyed the High Elven Homeland and the Dark Eldar aren't lead by a wanabee King that claims he's the rightfull leader of all Elves.

In 40k the separation of Dark Eldar and Craftworlders comes from how they chose to live their lives after the fall. And even if their philosopies put them at odds many times, their separation is not as big as in Fantasy. At the end of the day they are all Eldar, for a Craftworlder a Dark Eldar comes before a Human in his list of priorities, where in Fantasy, for a High Elf, a Dark Elf is probably the worst thing in the world.

You're right, I'd forgotten Calgar halves damage.