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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Clockwork never said Marines weren't OP (and actually explicitly pointed out that they well might be), just that your methodology is flawed. Which it is.

Exactly.

My belief is that the problem is that the Marines are running around with 2.0 rules and everyone else has 1.0 rules (maybe 1.2 for CSM). PA seems to a 1.5 update, so I'm sincerely hoping this gets everyone else closer to where the game should be before their 2.0 update comes out.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Clockwork never said Marines weren't OP (and actually explicitly pointed out that they well might be), just that your methodology is flawed. Which it is.

Well it took Clockwork around 20 posts to understand my methodology and, if I'm honest, I have already said that this is only one (of many) indicators that Marines are OP. TWIP, win percentages against various factions, win percentages excluding mirror matches, average points scored and average points denied all feed into the general idea that marines are too strong, for me. I'm surprised at you Walrus, I thought you more objective than this.

You can continue to clog this thread up with this chat, or you can discuss the rumours. I don't care either way - I have no interest in the next PA volume

Your methodology is leaping to conclusions that are plausible but not yet provable because there's a bunch of variables you can't control for. That is the objective truth.That doesn't mean that you are wrong in your conclusion, only that the means you used to get to the conclusion are.

There's plenty of indications that suggest the SM Codex is OP, but there's also a bunch of stuff suggesting it isn't. "Results inconclusive, needs more data" doesn't mean you're not right, just that you cannot prove it yet.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Your methodology is leaping to conclusions that are plausible but not yet provable because there's a bunch of variables you can't control for. That is the objective truth.That doesn't mean that you are wrong in your conclusion, only that the means you used to get to the conclusion are.

There's plenty of indications that suggest the SM Codex is OP, but there's also a bunch of stuff suggesting it isn't. "Results inconclusive, needs more data" doesn't mean you're not right, just that you cannot prove it yet.

And when is there "enough data" Walrus?

When the fabled 2.0 codexes are rolled out for the next army? When they're rolled out for all armies?

When we're about to enter 9th edition?

When marine players have had enough of winning?

Now, under normal circumstances I'd agree with you. But from what all of the boffins who actually compile, look at and interpret this data have said, the results are drastically different to what they have seen in the past with other codex releases and with other new model releases. The difference is so staggering that they believe there is an issue. The numbers we are talking about here are more extreme than pre-nerf Ynnari and Castellan soup. To be clear also, we're not talking about a small sample size of 100 or so games. We're talking well over 1000 games here.

Can someone tell me if there are any more rumours? I can't be bothered wading through 10 pages of crying.

saint_red wrote:
Can someone tell me if there are any more rumours? I can't be bothered wading through 10 pages of crying.

With that attitude? No. Wade through those 10 pages. Good luck

saint_red wrote:
Can someone tell me if there are any more rumours? I can't be bothered wading through 10 pages of crying.

Black Templars will have a supplement.
Sisters are coming.
Emperors Children + World Eaters are coming.

Speculation / hope among fans :

Imperial Loss
Chaos Pyrhic victory
Book 3 will be another Xenos book
Hopefully Corsairs

saint_red wrote:
Can someone tell me if there are any more rumours? I can't be bothered wading through 10 pages of crying.

Not much since the "no models for BT" thing. Everything else looks to be a bit older and the French rumormonger seems to be going quiet because they're getting too much attention.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
These keywords are nowhere near the same thing as separate supplements that SM have which is what I thought you were referring to. What's your point?

That for a lot of faction, having sub-faction rules is unnecessary and not something the average player of that faction would be very interested in. That's not to say those faction should get less, just different stuff.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Your methodology is leaping to conclusions that are plausible but not yet provable because there's a bunch of variables you can't control for. That is the objective truth.That doesn't mean that you are wrong in your conclusion, only that the means you used to get to the conclusion are.

There's plenty of indications that suggest the SM Codex is OP, but there's also a bunch of stuff suggesting it isn't. "Results inconclusive, needs more data" doesn't mean you're not right, just that you cannot prove it yet.

And when is there "enough data" Walrus?

When the fabled 2.0 codexes are rolled out for the next army? When they're rolled out for all armies?

When we're about to enter 9th edition?

When marine players have had enough of winning?

Hard to say. Give it a month (so end of November) or two (to coincide with CA) so all the supplements have had time to be out for (at least) a month and the meta's had a chance to adapt.

Don't get me wrong, it's not looking good, but all six supplements have barely gotten out of the gate. The game could handle half a year of Knights being everywhere, it can handle three months of various Marines (and yes, I know the numbers don't look the same, the point is the game has lived through incredibly dominant factions before).

Plus, designing proper methodology for something like this is far harder than identifying things that have been missed.

Okay, red text time.
This thread is for the Psychic Awakening N&R, it is not for arguing about marines being OP, other races not being the best or for insulting people. If you wish to post about the first two points then do so in one of the other, many threads for that. If you wish to do the latter then type out a rant and hit the large red x on the top right of your screen before hitting submit.

The rules here are very simple and easy to follow;
Be polite.
Stay on topic.
Don't spam.

This thread is now on notice and any violations of these very simple rules will earn their author a vacation from the site.

Thanks,
ingtær.

In regards to the hopes/delusions of possibly having World Eaters or Emperor's Children rules as part of PA..... Almost impossible.

I think the best we could get out of the deal is some expanded unit rules and maybe models for one unit and one character updated. Everyone is getting the Eldar treatment.

Now don't get me wrong, updated Berserkers would be amazing, and sell well. If I were a betting man I'd place money on this.

Aren't the Emperor's Children in the next book?

In any case, they're not getting any new minis, so they'll get a formation that allows them to use some Noise Marines in exactly one configuration (based upon this and this) and that'll be it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Aren't the Emperor's Children in the next book?

In any case, they're not getting any new minis, so they'll get a formation that allows them to use some Noise Marines in exactly one configuration (based upon this and this) and that'll be it.

They could get a custom psychic discipline as well.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Aren't the Emperor's Children in the next book?

In any case, they're not getting any new minis, so they'll get a formation that allows them to use some Noise Marines in exactly one configuration (based upon this and this) and that'll be it.

I meant as a stand-alone and expanded army. A new unit, expanded rules for that unit, a character, and some new toys/buffs is the best we can expect.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Aren't the Emperor's Children in the next book?

In any case, they're not getting any new minis, so they'll get a formation that allows them to use some Noise Marines in exactly one configuration (based upon this and this) and that'll be it.

I meant as a stand-alone and expanded army. A new unit, expanded rules for that unit, a character, and some new toys/buffs is the best we can expect.

With the rumors, we should only expect a new sorceror model.

That said, updated Noise Marines would be a good update.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I meant as a stand-alone and expanded army.

During this Psychic Awakening nonsense, or just in general?

During PA I agree with you. They're not about to do a 1KSons/Death Guard on the Emp's Children or World Eaters during this "event" series they've got going.

Overall though? I see no reason why these two Legions wouldn't get a full release (with their respective Daemon Primarchs) later down the line.

They had a huge opportunity to make BT awesome and make Space Marines actually interesting again. The last thing I need is more infiltrating units and guns. Give me some damn assault units with chainswords FFS.

No Emperor's Champion
No updated Grimaldus
No updated Helbrecht
No updated Primaris
No updated Sword Brethren
No updated Assault Terminators
No updates Assault Marines
Most importantly, Tabards on everything!

hard, hard, HARD pass.

I guess we're stuck with terrible looking tacticool primaris

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
They had a huge opportunity to make BT awesome and make Space Marines actually interesting again. The last thing I need is more infiltrating units and guns. Give me some damn assault units with chainswords FFS.

No Emperor's Champion
No updated Grimaldus
No updated Helbrecht
No updated Primaris
No updated Sword Brethren
No updated Assault Terminators
No updates Assault Marines

hard, hard, HARD pass.

Assault Marines are from 2013 (or 2015, I honestly can't remember, that said they aren't that old), they don't need a new kit yet.

Hopefully BT will get a stand alone 2.0 supplement in the future with some real models updates.

I meant Primaris.

I hate primaris personally, but the writing's on the wall. It's primaris or nothing now.

I can't bring myself to buy them because I hate most of everything that's been released except for intercessors.

I can't bring myself to buy old marines because they're going to get squatted and their proportions look terrible now compared to a lot of GW newer models

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I meant Primaris.

I hate primaris personally, but the writing's on the wall. It's primaris or nothing now.

I can't bring myself to buy them because I hate most of everything that's been released except for intercessors.

I can't bring myself to buy old marines because they're going to get squatted and their proportions look terrible now compared to a lot of GW newer models

I like the Intercessors and Gravis fits my yellow Marines well, but yeah, we need proper Primaris Assault Marines of some kind.

And a BT Crusader squad upgrade sprue for Primaris as well. Mixing Phobos and Intercessors would work well.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Aren't the Emperor's Children in the next book?

In any case, they're not getting any new minis, so they'll get a formation that allows them to use some Noise Marines in exactly one configuration (based upon this and this) and that'll be it.

If they were smart, GW would make a new upgrade sprue that is for the new CSM kit that makes Noise Marines and Khorne Berserkers. IF.

If they were smart, they'd just make new Noise Marine/Terminator/Specialist unit and Berzerker Marines/Terminators/Specialist units, a bunch of characters, a unique vehicle/Daemon Engine or two, a Daemon Primarch, a terrain piece and a Codex for each.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Aren't the Emperor's Children in the next book?

In any case, they're not getting any new minis, so they'll get a formation that allows them to use some Noise Marines in exactly one configuration (based upon this and this) and that'll be it.

If they were smart, GW would make a new upgrade sprue that is for the new CSM kit that makes Noise Marines and Khorne Berserkers. IF.

I'd be a little upset, as a CSM player who wants new bezerkers and noise marines for his army if they just issued an upgrade kit. the basic CSM kit isn't exactly cheap. but yeah I'd have no problem if they basicly just took the CSM kit and tweeked it in CAD.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If they were smart, they'd just make new Noise Marine/Terminator/Specialist unit and Berzerker Marines/Terminators/Specialist units, a bunch of characters, a unique vehicle/Daemon Engine or two, a Daemon Primarch, a terrain piece and a Codex for each.

Touche. I wouldn't be MAD if they did that, by any means. But if given the choice between an upgrade kit or using the old models (including the Failcast stuff), I would take the upgrade kit in a heartbeat.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If they were smart, they'd just make new Noise Marine/Terminator/Specialist unit and Berzerker Marines/Terminators/Specialist units, a bunch of characters, a unique vehicle/Daemon Engine or two, a Daemon Primarch, a terrain piece and a Codex for each.

Touche. I wouldn't be MAD if they did that, by any means. But if given the choice between an upgrade kit or using the old models (including the Failcast stuff), I would take the upgrade kit in a heartbeat.

Naa, outside of Loyalist Marines GW doesn't do upgrade sprues anymore.

Noise Marines will get a nice box of 6 Marines (and 1 dead eldar for scenery) for the same price as the 7 Plague Marines.
With the box you'll be able to build two Marines with Bolter, 1 Sonic Blaster, 1 Blastmaster, 1 with Sword of Seduction and Screecher pistol and Sergeant with Doom Siren and Power whip.
Ruleswise you'll still be able to equip all with bolter/Blaster or Sword+ Pistol, 1 guy in a squad with blastmaster.
Sword of seduction is a power sword, for every killed model you roll a die, on a 5+, its unit can't fall back (5pts). Screecher pistol is a bolt pistol with ignores cover (2pts.)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If they were smart, they'd just make new Noise Marine/Terminator/Specialist unit and Berzerker Marines/Terminators/Specialist units, a bunch of characters, a unique vehicle/Daemon Engine or two, a Daemon Primarch, a terrain piece and a Codex for each.

Don't forget to remove two thirds of the CSM options when doing so - can't have any of the new chaos kits when you got a primarch, right?

Not true. You can have Chaos Lords and Sorcerers who are part of an Emperor's Children/World Eater army, but they don't get to benefit from all of the EC/WE rules because they're not real Noise Marine/Berzerker Commanders and aren't unique minis with Adejctive Nounverb names.

Yeah, but you get replacement lords and casters with completely different skills, so you shouldn't be needing those, right?

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Hopefully BT will get a stand alone 2.0 supplement in the future with some real models updates.

From everything we know from the rumours of this release the PA volume 2 IS BTs 2.0 supplement book with a few other factions thrown in for fluff/cash grabby reasons.

Apparently the legions each get a page with stratagems, relic(s) and WL trait(s). I suspect that'll be it for every faction that isn't BT.