Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
On one had yes.
On the other hand 'eh'. There's more than one game mode/mission to this and we're working from preview one that shows off 1 or 2 bits from each of the 4(?) rules extensions that are coming for a single faction. I'd call that a good thing, even if we wont know details until the weekend/next week at the earliest. Then there's also the Open Day on Saturday too. Y'know in most games that would be cause for general good will or happiness....

But because it's not invalidating Iron Hands/Marines it's all trash. Gotcha.

Was not everyones point but alas.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Tl;DR - it's not overbuffed over the buff of Codex Marines and so is trash?

Does that some it up?

Sum* it up. And no. Not even close.

TLDR - Yet again the None-Marine rules seem to pale in comparison to the Marine rules, both in terms of complexity, fun, flexibility and the increase in power. This is not normal, should not continue and is very toxic for the game and community.

I'd like BTW to make a prediction that 'nids are going to have a strat that allows them to purchase extra adaptions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Tl;DR - it's not overbuffed over the buff of Codex Marines and so is trash?

Does that some it up?

that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd like BTW to make a prediction that 'nids are going to have a strat that allows them to purchase extra adaptions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Tl;DR - it's not overbuffed over the buff of Codex Marines and so is trash?

Does that some it up?

that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.

Well, I think if they were crying "nerf Space Marines" you'd probably have a problem with that too. I assume you believe things are fine as is if so?

BrianDavion wrote:
that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.

We don't want to be 'the best'. We want to be balanced. Right now with our 30% competitive win rate (the lowest of any faction in the game) we are nowhere close to that.

That means we want updates that are improvements, no strings attached. Things like Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault, or Doctrines.

Not sidegrade options, like alternative subfactions, that require sacrificing what we already have.

This really isn't complicated.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd like BTW to make a prediction that 'nids are going to have a strat that allows them to purchase extra adaptions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Tl;DR - it's not overbuffed over the buff of Codex Marines and so is trash?

Does that some it up?

that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.

Or maybe.. just maybe... people demand everyone gets treated the same and there's an even playing field?

Could be wrong.

My money is on the tears/salt when the next <insert faction name > Codex knocks the SM power lever out the ball park with broken ass gak rules diarrhoea and makes SM look like a WD gimmck article…

No no, current Marines are definitely a problem. Not saying they're not.
I'm just trying to understand the rampant and constant negativity when something that, if codex Marines wasn't factored into the discussion, is a positive.

I'd love to see them put major pt increases on SM. It's about the only sensible way to balance things, but that requires some element of an iterative process and is also going by the 'do we know what that book is balanced against' question which, at this point, we don't.

But that's tangential to the reveals. Stuff looks dope to me.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
No no, current Marines are definitely a problem. Not saying they're not.
I'm just trying to understand the rampant and constant negativity when something that, if codex Marines wasn't factored into the discussion, is a positive.

I'd love to see them put major pt increases on SM. It's about the only sensible way to balance things, but that requires some element of an iterative process and is also going by the 'do we know what that book is balanced against' question which, at this point, we don't.

But that's tangential to the reveals. Stuff looks dope to me.

I will say, it becomes harder to judge books against non-Marine books as time passes on. Space Marines take up a lot of the meta, and are also the most played faction in the game ontop of being the best, that it skews what everyone is running and building their lists to defeat. I hope Games Workshop aren't planning on waiting 'till March for a fix, since several books will have come and gone by then that could have had a much better impression without the comparison to new Marines.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
I'm just trying to understand the rampant and constant negativity when something that, if codex Marines wasn't factored into the discussion, is a positive.

Completely ignore codex SM, and this still isn't enough. It's nice to have options, but we already have a solid subfaction (Kraken), and a host of good stratagems to spend CP on. Adaptive Physiology was looking like it could have been a doctrine-esque system to provide a flat power boost to the army, and it turns out that's not the case.

Now factor in that BA are getting a massive update, including a bunch of exactly the sorts of rules that Tyranids need, in the same book, when they already have a higher win rate... Yeah, I'm a little salty about it. Maybe CA will help us out with points drops, but I'm not optimistic.

 catbarf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.

We don't want to be 'the best'. We want to be balanced. Right now with our 30% competitive win rate (the lowest of any faction in the game) we are nowhere close to that.

That means we want updates that are improvements, no strings attached. Things like Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault, or Doctrines.

Not sidegrade options, like alternative subfactions, that require sacrificing what we already have.

This really isn't complicated.

Atleast tyranids still have a winrate
Can't say that about my R&H

Not Online!!! wrote:
Atleast tyranids still have a winrate
Can't say that about my R&H

My R&H are played exclusively as AM for the time being, and my Death Korps are staying on the shelf, so believe me, I understand your pain.

 catbarf wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Atleast tyranids still have a winrate
Can't say that about my R&H

My R&H are played exclusively as AM for the time being, and my Death Korps are staying on the shelf, so believe me, I understand your pain.

Oh i know,i visit your painting thread,but i just wanted to contextualise that there are factions that don't even show up with a rate and then the contrast of the somewhat closer factions crowned by our ih and if overlords.

tneva82 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Another clear sign the calls that Marine insanity was a herald of things to come were nonsense.

Which is a good thing. Nerf marines and we are all happy instead of starting a new arm race.

You know that's pretty much what I'm hoping now. That all non-marines get mediocre updates so there's as few broken factions as possible so that at least xenos vs xenos can be fun and then hopefully GW eventually nerfs the marines(as if...). Seems like lesser of two evils now.

Sure, everyone can just avoid playing marines.

Oh shoot that's like 60% of the codexes and players now isn't it?

This is like if mid 7th happened but every player already had a scatter bike and wk army.

Probably going to ramble a bit, might not make sense.

While I don't think the new rules we have seen look good .. I can say for certain they look boring. The Adaptations for fleets are the same system as Chapter Tactics, and while using that as a springboard is fine, it doesn't feel thematic. I'd rather he ability to change my entire tactic (or change part of it even since most/nearly all are two parts) for free mid game, or even at a cost of CP.

The Adaptive Phis is a really cool idea, and if we had the ability to use it on multiple squads before the game (3-5 slots of use?) or even be able to do it to all of our units for a points cost (harken back to general biomorphs), it could really make it even more flavorful. Trading a warlord trait for one unit getting a buff is... Completely meh. It doesn't feel fluffy to me when one unit changes but the rest all stay the same, even though the swarm is supposed to adapt.

Then we have the Hive Fleet specific powers... Which boggles my mind. Why are they specific to Hive fleets? I could see there being some that are specific to Kronos, because they're highly developed for Anti-Warp shenanigans, and specialize in it.
The Leviathan one is also useless in almost every situation I can imagine. If it extended the range for Leviathan's FnP for units near Synapse creatures, I could see it's use. But as of right now, if that is the standard, I'm just going to keep taking Catalyst, Psychic Scream, Onslaught, and maybe on of the other three depending on what my list has.

It just leaves a bad taste on top of a bad taste in my mouth after being burnt out on comp games locally, with Marines arriving like a frieght train. Moving to more casual and narrative games, I want the rules to better reflect the army's backstory, something the current ones still struggle with and these look like a weak shuffling in the direction of.

I'm not mad, no, but I am disappointed with what has been shown. I will reserve full judgement until it's released, but I'm not preordering it, or buying it Day 1 until I feel it's WORTH the cost of one of these books. Which is another issues itself that isn't suited for this topic.

60% of the top 10 at tournaments...

About 20% of the players, which is a huge problem as there are more than 5 factions.

Prior to the updated codex they were about 4% for reference, that's a 500% increase in players.

The problem is now that they are OP undercoated gak every other faction will be non competitive.

Not everyone plays competitive but when your faction loses by almost default unless you okay the one decent build your faction might have and roll well, it's bad for the game.

So unless everyone else becomes OP, or has deep drastic points cuts so that Marines are actually paying a premium for their bonus layers of rules the game overall will have problems and suffer.

Point cuts would not even solve all issues some faction have.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd like BTW to make a prediction that 'nids are going to have a strat that allows them to purchase extra adaptions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Tl;DR - it's not overbuffed over the buff of Codex Marines and so is trash?

Does that some it up?

that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.

C'mon Brian. You've been a constant participant in these threads and are clearly a sharp individual.

No one is calling for that. We want to be in the vicinity of C:SM. It would be good for everyone. Marines cease to be a problem if everyone gets updates that put them at least near Marines in effectiveness.

The worst part is PA is the exact right vehicle to do this in an expedient manner. Instead it's throwing crumbs to non Loyalist factions in the same books it's giving the full Marine level update too. It's a horrible recipe for community frustration and eventually apathy.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
No no, current Marines are definitely a problem. Not saying they're not.
I'm just trying to understand the rampant and constant negativity when something that, if codex Marines wasn't factored into the discussion, is a positive.

I'd love to see them put major pt increases on SM. It's about the only sensible way to balance things, but that requires some element of an iterative process and is also going by the 'do we know what that book is balanced against' question which, at this point, we don't.

But that's tangential to the reveals. Stuff looks dope to me.

I think a large part of the problem is the way GW gives with one hand but takes away with the other....except for Marines. Take for example the hive fleet adaptations, it’s like GW are saying; “here you go guys - potentially powerful, fun, fluffy rules but of course if you want to take them you’ll have to drop your warlord trait! Couldn’t give you both now, could we? Who do you think you are? Marines? Hahahahahaha no. Now be thankful for anything NPC race #4.”

Then stranger still people defend this stupidity. Yea the rules could be interesting. They don’t look it from what we’ve seen. They certainly don’t look powerful. Worse they don’t look as interesting, fun or powerful as the Marine faction’s rules in the same book, which just shows how, not only out of touch, but also biased GW are to their poster boys. It’s becoming ridiculous to the point of insulting for anyone who doesn’t play Marines to continue to support GW when they know damn well they’re second fiddle.

 Carnikang wrote:
Probably going to ramble a bit, might not make sense.

While I don't think the new rules we have seen look good .. I can say for certain they look boring. The Adaptations for fleets are the same system as Chapter Tactics, and while using that as a springboard is fine, it doesn't feel thematic. I'd rather he ability to change my entire tactic (or change part of it even since most/nearly all are two parts) for free mid game, or even at a cost of CP.

The Adaptive Phis is a really cool idea, and if we had the ability to use it on multiple squads before the game (3-5 slots of use?) or even be able to do it to all of our units for a points cost (harken back to general biomorphs), it could really make it even more flavorful. Trading a warlord trait for one unit getting a buff is... Completely meh. It doesn't feel fluffy to me when one unit changes but the rest all stay the same, even though the swarm is supposed to adapt.

Then we have the Hive Fleet specific powers... Which boggles my mind. Why are they specific to Hive fleets? I could see there being some that are specific to Kronos, because they're highly developed for Anti-Warp shenanigans, and specialize in it.
The Leviathan one is also useless in almost every situation I can imagine. If it extended the range for Leviathan's FnP for units near Synapse creatures, I could see it's use. But as of right now, if that is the standard, I'm just going to keep taking Catalyst, Psychic Scream, Onslaught, and maybe on of the other three depending on what my list has.

It just leaves a bad taste on top of a bad taste in my mouth after being burnt out on comp games locally, with Marines arriving like a frieght train. Moving to more casual and narrative games, I want the rules to better reflect the army's backstory, something the current ones still struggle with and these look like a weak shuffling in the direction of.

I'm not mad, no, but I am disappointed with what has been shown. I will reserve full judgement until it's released, but I'm not preordering it, or buying it Day 1 until I feel it's WORTH the cost of one of these books. Which is another issues itself that isn't suited for this topic.

I'd be willing to bet money you'll be able to buy more adaptive Phi's with command points, it'd make a LOT more sense if you could.

They're still losing out on their Warlord Trait to give one unit, and then pay for more units to have a watered down form of Doctrines and Super Doctrines, which Marines get with out having to spend CP on, or lose a WLT to get.

What worries me is thst is the Preview, allegedly the juicy part of the book. Think what fething pile of stinking gak the rest of the book is..
I played nids thru whole 7th, losing hundreds of games because I refused to play 6 flyrant. Nids have such a great and beautiful range of models with such poor rules..
This fethers from GW really want to push that space Marines gak up to the brink once again. Why the feth they had to power creep the gak out of them? Why???

BrianDavion wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:
Probably going to ramble a bit, might not make sense.

While I don't think the new rules we have seen look good .. I can say for certain they look boring. The Adaptations for fleets are the same system as Chapter Tactics, and while using that as a springboard is fine, it doesn't feel thematic. I'd rather he ability to change my entire tactic (or change part of it even since most/nearly all are two parts) for free mid game, or even at a cost of CP.

The Adaptive Phis is a really cool idea, and if we had the ability to use it on multiple squads before the game (3-5 slots of use?) or even be able to do it to all of our units for a points cost (harken back to general biomorphs), it could really make it even more flavorful. Trading a warlord trait for one unit getting a buff is... Completely meh. It doesn't feel fluffy to me when one unit changes but the rest all stay the same, even though the swarm is supposed to adapt.

Then we have the Hive Fleet specific powers... Which boggles my mind. Why are they specific to Hive fleets? I could see there being some that are specific to Kronos, because they're highly developed for Anti-Warp shenanigans, and specialize in it.
The Leviathan one is also useless in almost every situation I can imagine. If it extended the range for Leviathan's FnP for units near Synapse creatures, I could see it's use. But as of right now, if that is the standard, I'm just going to keep taking Catalyst, Psychic Scream, Onslaught, and maybe on of the other three depending on what my list has.

It just leaves a bad taste on top of a bad taste in my mouth after being burnt out on comp games locally, with Marines arriving like a frieght train. Moving to more casual and narrative games, I want the rules to better reflect the army's backstory, something the current ones still struggle with and these look like a weak shuffling in the direction of.

I'm not mad, no, but I am disappointed with what has been shown. I will reserve full judgement until it's released, but I'm not preordering it, or buying it Day 1 until I feel it's WORTH the cost of one of these books. Which is another issues itself that isn't suited for this topic.

I'd be willing to bet money you'll be able to buy more adaptive Phi's with command points, it'd make a LOT more sense if you could.

They probably will. Do you think that makes it a good system, given that you have to give up a completely separate ability unlike pretty much every other faction in the game?

 Emicrania wrote:
What worries me is thst is the Preview, allegedly the juicy part of the book. Think what fething pile of stinking gak the rest of the book is..
I played nids thru whole 7th, losing hundreds of games because I refused to play 6 flyrant. Nids have such a great and beautiful range of models with such poor rules..
This fethers from GW really want to push that space Marines gak up to the brink once again. Why the feth they had to power creep the gak out of them? Why???

I just do not understand why this is the case. They're arguably the most unique and cool army in the game next to sisters and dark eldar (IMO)

Nids literally have poison blood, so I have often argue that they should do an AP- wound when they die to anything not-friendly within 3 inches. You could beef it up to AP-1/AP-2 for the biggest and baddest models out there.

Fun. Fluffy. Thematic. Cool.

Tyranid warriors are supposed to be apex predators, that can adapt on the fly. But, they have no rules (Think doctrines but only for the warrior brood, maybe; Assault/Destroyer/Hunt; Advance and shoot (no penalty) this turn. Reroll 1's to hit and wound, if stand still. Drawing a blank for hunt at the moment, but you get the idea.)

I kinda wish every army had a "Miracle dice" like mechanic.

Exactly. They should have adaptable rules before the game begins. Choosing your chapter tactics before the deployment starts for example. Or give a couple units a different rule, like +1 cover save if you know you're fighting shooty armies. The Hive Mind is fully adaptable and builds it's bugs on the go to fight exactly what it's facing. GW missed so many thematic rules, it's no longer funny.

It's just nids, basically a NPC in 40K anyway.

Just make up a table, set them up and roll to see what they do that turn. Don't need anyone to actually run them.

Same for Necrons.

At least the book has Blood Angels in it, so it is salvageable.

It took litteraly minutes from 2 random guys from Dakka in order to have better idea of mechanics than the GW game designers in months.
Lazy work or gakky writers?

Everyone complaining about why isn't it like the marine codex these books are not codexes you will have to wait for your codex to get more. These books are basically hold over till 9th sucks that marines got it first but that's just how it is you'll have to wait.

The nid stuff looks good to me a 4+overwatch fnp is a auto-include for me then I get to pick another from however big the list is.

nagash42 wrote:
Everyone complaining about why isn't it like the marine codex these books are not codexes you will have to wait for your codex to get more. These books are basically hold over till 9th sucks that marines got it first but that's just how it is you'll have to wait.

The nid stuff looks good to me a 4+overwatch fnp is a auto-include for me then I get to pick another from however big the list is.

Yet Black Templars, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels are getting it in PA. They have always been developed separately from the main book yet this time GW is blatantly developing all Marines on a level completely out of line with all other factions. It is absurd.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd like BTW to make a prediction that 'nids are going to have a strat that allows them to purchase extra adaptions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Tl;DR - it's not overbuffed over the buff of Codex Marines and so is trash?

Does that some it up?

that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.

I'll offer you another possibility. The marine supliments, PA marine stuff shows that GW can make good interesting rules. Then you look at the rules that were put forward in this latest community post. They're no where near as interesting, no where near as useful, no where near the quality of the marine rules.

So we're not complaining because Tyranids aren't a top tier army. We're complaining because GW has the ability to write good rules and those jackasses just didn't bother. Our Codex is arguably low tier, it does very much need an update. With PA GW had the ability to give us rules that would be a stop gap until the next codex release.

But instead we got mediocrity. So we're not mad our army isn't the new hotness, we're mad because GW has apparently thrown us table scraps and ya'll expect us to be happy for it.

edit: I wonder how many of the marine players telling us to STFU and be happy were 'happy" when Knights were running the Meta. Also the poster who said Brian is a Marine white knight is 100% right.

I think that no matter what actually happens when this book releases, even if it turns out to be utterly game breaking and Nids somehow end up on top, all the complaining and grumbling is still rightly deserved due to just how terrible this article actually was.

These Warhammer Community posts are supposed to generate hype and get people excited for the release, not show off barely mediocre rules that only serve to piss people off.