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 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

I heard there was an entire chapter that could be always considered in cover as long as they don't come too close though, they must be broken op compared to a new choice for a 5++ aura.

It's ok, they only get overwatch on a 6+ so they're brokenly underpowered.

or have a 6+++ and count as double wounds for degradation. Funny how you have to omit rules to make what you are saying sound reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, the UM "Tactical Doctrine count as not moving when shooting" is just crazy, crazy good. I'll take that over a 6+++ all day evey day and then some.

I feel like some marine players often have this innate fear over losing units, and gravitate towards resiliency bonuses. But rarely does that work out, imo.

You do realize that you aren't taking it over a 6+++.
You are taking it over a 6+++ overwatch on 5's and count as double wounds for degradation and turn 1 bonus to ignore heavy weapons penalties and reroll 1's. Just so you can fall back and shoot with some tanks at a -1 and have a useless leadship bonus and shoot better with some bolter weapons...AKA useless. Heavy weapons starting turn 1 is a way better ability. Not only because it's turn 1. The heavy weapons are more deadly.

Raven Guard don’t give a good goddamn about a damage chart that doesn’t affect their bread and butter units. They’re an infantry army, their entire Codex is built around them. Similarly, permacover and a -1 to be hit are faaaaaaaar superior to a 6+++

So the long and short is - different chapters promote different play styles through different units? Colour me shocked. Iron hands better with vehicles, Xeno obsessed with repulsors = makes sense.

Dudeface wrote:
So the long and short is - different chapters promote different play styles through different units? Colour me shocked. Iron hands better with vehicles, Xeno obsessed with repulsors = makes sense.

No, Iron Hands is massively better for vehicles, and still really good for other units. I really don't see how other chapters can compete with this.

 Crimson wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
So the long and short is - different chapters promote different play styles through different units? Colour me shocked. Iron hands better with vehicles, Xeno obsessed with repulsors = makes sense.

No, Iron Hands is massively better for vehicles, and still really good for other units. I really don't see how other chapters can compete with this.

OK, can you provide an example list to illustrate why they are going to be so much stronger? This is a genuine question.

I see a lot of doom mongering about leviathans and executioners etc, but those units are really expensive. By the time you have two executioners, a leviathan, feirros, lt, and min troop choices (3 scouts) thats 1310 points! Your board control is tiny, you're turtled up round a single buff character and your exposed to enemy alpha strike. If they get cheap assaults or 1st turn assaults you're dead as a proverbial flightless bird.

I suppose IH will still want the LT Buff + Ironstone, so I Suppose it just rids them of one character.

The illusion of Iron Hands getting to be free of the death ball is just that, an illusion.

 ewar wrote:


OK, can you provide an example list to illustrate why they are going to be so much stronger? This is a genuine question.

I see a lot of doom mongering about leviathans and executioners etc, but those units are really expensive. By the time you have two executioners, a leviathan, feirros, lt, and min troop choices (3 scouts) thats 1310 points! Your board control is tiny, you're turtled up round a single buff character and your exposed to enemy alpha strike. If they get cheap assaults or 1st turn assaults you're dead as a proverbial flightless bird.

Assaulting IH is unhealthy. They overwatch with 5+ Furthermore, their best units have either fly so can withdraw without penalty, or are dreadnoughts which can fight back. And you don't need to go all in with vehicles, sure, their rules benefits vehicles the most, but they're good with almost all units. They're the only chapter which got three part tactic, and all three of those rules are very strong. I am not saying they're unbeatable, merely that they're easily the best marine chapter.

I get that, but UM have the triple extra overwatch shots, plus fall back and shoot already.

If IH aren't investing in lots of vehicles, where are they getting their extra heavy weapons from? They're also NOT then getting ap-1 rapid fire and assault weapons, which means their infantry is fighting like it's 2018.

There are a lot of complex interactions, which I think will surface when the shock wear's off.

I was serious btw, have a go at writing a competitive IH list to make the most of their doctrine, I think it's a lot more restrictive than you think it will be.

Basicly Iron Hands are good if you want a single hard vehicle squad but they're pretty inflexable. Don't get me wrong if I'm playing a scerio type game where the objective is "hold point A" Iron Hands are going to be a great choice. but a game enviroment that requires flexability and mobility? they'll likely suffer. not irredeemably so but to a degree where another chapter will beat them

Defensive Focus costs 2CP. IH get 5+ overwatch for free all the time. And stalker bolt rifles and scout sniper rifles are both heavy weapons you can give to your troops.

And I'm really not gonna bother writing a full list. Sorry. Though from top of my head I think double battalion with Feiros, a tech marine, a lieutenant and a librarian, intercessors and maybe sniper scouts as troops would probably be a good starting point. I guess some infiltrators for troops could work as well is you are afraid of deepstrike. That's, what 800ish points? Then add other units as needed. Favouring vehicles of course. I think repulsors, flyers and dreadnoughts can all work with this.

I just do not really see other chapters being sufficiently better at offence or mobility that the IH that they could overcome the significant advantage the IH has in the form of durability. I'd be super glad to be wrong though. I am personally not planning to play IH (probabaly...) as I don't like their playstyle.

 Crimson wrote:

I just do not really see other chapters being sufficiently better at offence or mobility that the IH that they could overcome the significant advantage the IH has in the form of durability. I'd be super glad to be wrong though. I am personally not planning to play IH (probabaly...) as I don't like their playstyle.

The only "significant durability" that IH get is in the deathball with Papa Cybork and the Blarney Stone hauler, which makes them vulnerable to all kinds of shenanigans.

 Crimson wrote:
Defensive Focus costs 2CP. IH get 5+ overwatch for free all the time. And stalker bolt rifles and scout sniper rifles are both heavy weapons you can give to your troops.

And I'm really not gonna bother writing a full list. Sorry. Though from top of my head I think double battalion with Feiros, a tech marine, a lieutenant and a librarian, intercessors and maybe sniper scouts as troops would probably be a good starting point. I guess some infiltrators for troops could work as well is you are afraid of deepstrike. That's, what 800ish points? Then add other units as needed. Favouring vehicles of course. I think repulsors, flyers and dreadnoughts can all work with this.

I just do not really see other chapters being sufficiently better at offence or mobility that the IH that they could overcome the significant advantage the IH has in the form of durability. I'd be super glad to be wrong though. I am personally not planning to play IH (probabaly...) as I don't like their playstyle.

I don't see how Iron Hands are anything special offensively.

Rerolling 1s to hit is still a captain buff, right? I don't need IH to do that.

Iron Hands trade all the extra durability buffs if they want to be mobile.

Seriously, I think you should try and actually write a list and think how it plays before you say one more silly thing.

You fundamentally cannot be both mobile and in a castle around Feirros at the same time. These little meltdowns over nothing are so embarrassing!

Well, they can move and fire their heavy weapons without a penalty and their heavy weapons do not need to bubble around captain for rerolls. And they still retain their FNP and vehicles suffering less from damage. This offers mobility if that is needed. They're better at this than most other chapters.

As for offence, Feirros can boos BS of one unit and the librarian can boost shooting as well. And of course durability also improves offence. Longer you stay alive, longer you can fight at the best profile, more damage you do.

And yes, and IH vehicle that has to move from character bubble gets much weaker. And when it is weaker, it is still better than vehicle from any other chapter. This is what you don't seem to be getting.

What do the other chapters have? They do not have particularly amazing offensive buffs either. They just don't have defensive ones at all.

I am not having an meltdown. But I will be really surprised if the IH will not be the clear dominant choice same way than Alaitoc was for the Eldar.

Iron Hands are going to, that being said, proably be OP on planet bowling ball. but in an enviroment with signfcigent terrain and cover, they'll certainly be less so.

BrianDavion wrote:
Iron Hands are going to, that being said, proably be OP on planet bowling ball. but in an enviroment with signfcigent terrain and cover, they'll certainly be less so.

This is irrelevant. The game is mostly played on planet bowling ball. I've played at LVO - I play lots of ITC events. Except for dumb rules like magic boxes there is nothing significant about it. To be honest a defensive powerhouse deathball benefits a lot from your entire army not being able to focus down 1 unit.

Eh. The game should be played with a lot of terrain. It is just that most marine armies are shooting based, and the terrain affects them equally. (Except the IF, but we don't know what their supplement does.)

 Crimson wrote:
Well, they can move and fire their heavy weapons without a penalty and their heavy weapons do not need to bubble around captain for rerolls. And they still retain their FNP and vehicles suffering less from damage. This offers mobility if that is needed. They're better at this than most other chapters.

As for offence, Feirros can boos BS of one unit and the librarian can boost shooting as well. And of course durability also improves offence. Longer you stay alive, longer you can fight at the best profile, more damage you do.

And yes, and IH vehicle that has to move from character bubble gets much weaker. And when it is weaker, it is still better than vehicle from any other chapter. This is what you don't seem to be getting.

What do the other chapters have? They do not have particularly amazing offensive buffs either. They just don't have defensive ones at all.

I am not having an meltdown. But I will be really surprised if the IH will not be the clear dominant choice same way than Alaitoc was for the Eldar.

IH are definitely strong and have some very obvious synergies, I agree.

What do you think about the RG abilities though? The infiltration shenanigans, teleporting characters, advance and charge, pre game move with advance... they are going to be absolutely unprecedented as an early pressure army I think. Putting a blob of aggressors in your face turn 1, supported by 10 VV with th/sh etc. They will take apart an IH castle in no time, whilst having massive board control.

I think some of their abilities are being massively under valued at the moment.

Put it like this, I don't think IH gain much offensively over other chapters in turn 1. Which then raises the question, how strong are their defensive buffs? Pretty strong, and definitely better than other marines. However, not enough to resist leafblower guard armies, knight soup and so on. I just don't think their extra resilience is going to offset their low model count and static gameplay when it comes to real world battles on boards which have some actual terrain on.

If players think Iron Hands are going to be good that is fine. I would actually like to see some Iron Hands armies all painted up with neat cybernetic customizations more anyways. Up until the new codex, I more or less forgot they were first founding. I could have probably named nearly dozen later founding chapters well before I could remember the Iron Hands existing. So I kinda like how they are getting talked about so much.

Unfortunately, the topic of this thread is the opposite of seeing more armies painted as Iron Hands. I imagine a lot of marine players are going give up on the chapter they like for the easy power of Iron Hands. So I kinda think I am going to see Iron Hands in every color but black. Which is a shame that game which looks far nicer than it actually plays has players focusing on the play rather than the looks.

Battalion +5 CP
HQ
Calgar (+2 CP) Walord
Tiggy
Troops
10x Intercessors - Bolt rifles (Honored Sergent (-1) - Master Crafted Weapon)
5x Intercessors - Auto Bolt Rifles
5x Intercessors - Auto Bolt Rifles
Elites
Invictor Warsuit - Flamer
Invictor Warsuit - Flamer
Invictor Warsuit - Flamer

Battalion+5 CP
HQ
Primaris Leutenent MC Autobolt Rifle (Bellecos Bolt Rifle)(-1)
Tech Marine - Storm Bolter (Seal of oath or vengeance of Ultramar)(-1)(Hero of the chapter - Bonus WL trait Master of Strategy (or if they have a ton of snipers I'll give him a defensive WL trait to protect seal of oath)(-1)

Troops
5x Intercessors - Auto Bolt Rifles
5x Intercessors - Bolt Rifles
5x Intercessors - Stalker Bolt Rifle

Elites
Priamris Ancient - Bolt Rifle ( Standard of Macragge (-1))
Redemptor Dread - Onslaughts and storm bolters and rocket pods
Redemptor Dread - Onslaughts and storm bolters and rocket pods
Redemptor Dread - Onslaughts and storm bolters and rocket pods


Battleforged +3 CP

This is a pretty strong ultras list I have been playing. This list is so much better as Ironhands. You just change all the marines to stalker bolters except maybe the 10 man with bolt rifles. You replace calgar with ferois and take a regular libby ether with a JP or a primaris one for an additional wound. That saves you about 120 points. That is enough to even a chapter master into the mix. The counters as stationary bonus for ultras (compared to ironhands) is really only useful for bolt rifles which are interior to ABR now except with rapid fire stratagem and on agressors (hate to say it though - agressors still aren't any good even with the ability to move and shoot twice. It's 24" threat range.) So turn 1 you aren't double tapping - then they go focused and die. Ironhands agressors are actually better - because you need to advance turn 1 anyways to get in range (and they can't shoot twice if they advance) Then turn 2 ironhands agressors are in better position to double tap and they have much better overwatch (which overwatch is always double shooting now) and the 6+ fnp averages them another wound almost - could be wrong but can't any marine chapter change a single unit to the tactical doctrine? don't have the codex in front of me. The ironhands super doctrine is the better choice for literally every heavy weapon because it stacks with the AP bonus. You just get your anti infantry from heavy weapons...which is not at all hard to do. bolters FTL. It's hard to conceive even how the same rules team could make these 2 super doctrine rules and think (yeah that is balanced) Turn 1 completely stackable vs turn 2 and varied AP bonus. Just based on the weapon choices even if I could start my whole army in tactical doctrine it would still be inferior because heavy weapons are just better than bolters.

It's really too bad aggressors can't go into the new shiny transport we got - that would actually make a huge difference.

So much for ultras being flexible. They aren't. If you really want to max out tactical doctrine you have to bring mostly inferior units. I am having the most successes with this list because of my close combat power and all the free attacks I get from relics and staying in the dev doctrine for lots of str 5 ap-2 shooting.

Ironhands are just gonna blow you off the table with units I can't protect.

Just remove the 6 dreads and 5 intercessors from my list and insert 2 exectuioners and a levi dread plus all the OP ironahnds relics and I really don't see how you could lose unless you went up against a list with 20 lascannons.

 ewar wrote:


What do you think about the RG abilities though? The infiltration shenanigans, teleporting characters, advance and charge, pre game move with advance... they are going to be absolutely unprecedented as an early pressure army I think. Putting a blob of aggressors in your face turn 1, supported by 10 VV with th/sh etc. They will take apart an IH castle in no time, whilst having massive board control.

RG are kinda weird. Yes, they have some really nasty tricks. Still, their bonuses are kinda confused. Their super doctrine works in tactical, and is basically good for sniper weapons... almost all of which are heavy. They have tricks to get close to the enemy... but their chapter tactic requires to keep the distance. But yeah, if I had to choose one other chapter that would have chance defeating the IH, it would definitely be them. It is just that I'm not sure that they're nearly as universally good versus variety of foes as the IH are.

Put it like this, I don't think IH gain much offensively over other chapters in turn 1. Which then raises the question, how strong are their defensive buffs? Pretty strong, and definitely better than other marines. However, not enough to resist leafblower guard armies, knight soup and so on. I just don't think their extra resilience is going to offset their low model count and static gameplay when it comes to real world battles on boards which have some actual terrain on.

Perhaps. But then agian, if the IH cannot compete agianst those armies, I really don't think any other marine chapter can either.

Furthermore, I am not so concerned about any theoretical top tournament performance. I predict that because IH have a playstyle which is both super easy and super effective they will become really frustrating in a casual environment. People just get tired of banging their head against a regenerating wall.

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Iron Hands are going to, that being said, proably be OP on planet bowling ball. but in an enviroment with signfcigent terrain and cover, they'll certainly be less so.

This is irrelevant. The game is mostly played on planet bowling ball. I've played at LVO - I play lots of ITC events. Except for dumb rules like magic boxes there is nothing significant about it. To be honest a defensive powerhouse deathball benefits a lot from your entire army not being able to focus down 1 unit.

I disagree with your above statement that most games of 40k are played on planet bowling ball. Most games are played either at someones house between a small gaming group or at a local gaming club and both of those groups will eventually have a ton of terrain

(I personally have enough to fill two tables with almost a third of the board having something solid like a large hill, building of all sizes, and other things like landing pads, etc....)

I agree most large tournaments generally can't come up with that much terrain but that's clearly not how GW envisions people playing, I mean look at any white dwarf battle.

That being said I'm a bit leery about a few thing in each supplement being to strong/obvious choice.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Battalion +5 CP
HQ
Calgar (+2 CP) Walord
Tiggy
Troops
10x Intercessors - Bolt rifles (Honored Sergent (-1) - Master Crafted Weapon)
5x Intercessors - Auto Bolt Rifles
5x Intercessors - Auto Bolt Rifles
Elites
Invictor Warsuit - Flamer
Invictor Warsuit - Flamer
Invictor Warsuit - Flamer

Battalion+5 CP
HQ
Primaris Leutenent MC Autobolt Rifle (Bellecos Bolt Rifle)(-1)
Tech Marine - Storm Bolter (Seal of oath or vengeance of Ultramar)(-1)(Hero of the chapter - Bonus WL trait Master of Strategy (or if they have a ton of snipers I'll give him a defensive WL trait to protect seal of oath)(-1)

Troops
5x Intercessors - Auto Bolt Rifles
5x Intercessors - Bolt Rifles
5x Intercessors - Stalker Bolt Rifle

Elites
Priamris Ancient - Bolt Rifle ( Standard of Macragge (-1))
Redemptor Dread - Onslaughts and storm bolters and rocket pods
Redemptor Dread - Onslaughts and storm bolters and rocket pods
Redemptor Dread - Onslaughts and storm bolters and rocket pods


Battleforged +3 CP

This is a pretty strong ultras list I have been playing. This list is so much better as Ironhands. You just change all the marines to stalker bolters except maybe the 10 man with bolt rifles. You replace calgar with ferois and take a regular libby ether with a JP or a primaris one for an additional wound. That saves you about 120 points. That is enough to even a chapter master into the mix. The counters as stationary bonus for ultras (compared to ironhands) is really only useful for bolt rifles which are interior to ABR now except with rapid fire stratagem and on agressors (hate to say it though - agressors still aren't any good even with the ability to move and shoot twice. It's 24" threat range.) So turn 1 you aren't double tapping - then they go focused and die. Ironhands agressors are actually better - because you need to advance turn 1 anyways to get in range (and they can't shoot twice if they advance) Then turn 2 ironhands agressors are in better position to double tap and they have much better overwatch (which overwatch is always double shooting now) and the 6+ fnp averages them another wound almost - could be wrong but can't any marine chapter change a single unit to the tactical doctrine? don't have the codex in front of me. The ironhands super doctrine is the better choice for literally every heavy weapon because it stacks with the AP bonus. You just get your anti infantry from heavy weapons...which is not at all hard to do. bolters FTL. It's hard to conceive even how the same rules team could make these 2 super doctrine rules and think (yeah that is balanced) Turn 1 completely stackable vs turn 2 and varied AP bonus. Just based on the weapon choices even if I could start my whole army in tactical doctrine it would still be inferior because heavy weapons are just better than bolters.

It's really too bad aggressors can't go into the new shiny transport we got - that would actually make a huge difference.

So much for ultras being flexible. They aren't. If you really want to max out tactical doctrine you have to bring mostly inferior units. I am having the most successes with this list because of my close combat power and all the free attacks I get from relics and staying in the dev doctrine for lots of str 5 ap-2 shooting.

Ironhands are just gonna blow you off the table with units I can't protect.

Just remove the 6 dreads and 5 intercessors from my list and insert 2 exectuioners and a levi dread plus all the OP ironahnds relics and I really don't see how you could lose unless you went up against a list with 20 lascannons.

so you run a list where the majority of your army are TANKS and you're suprised and upset that they work better as iron hands..... really?

well no gak sherlock! but what if you run less tanks and more infantry? hellblasters and agressors instead of tanks? just for example.

Nurglitch wrote:
Just call them the Emperor's Blue Shoes.

Management would like to request that Knights and Titans refrain from stomping on the Emperor's Blue Shoes - getting the suede on the armour was a nightmare for Him.

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Iron Hands are going to, that being said, proably be OP on planet bowling ball. but in an enviroment with signfcigent terrain and cover, they'll certainly be less so.

This is irrelevant. The game is mostly played on planet bowling ball. I've played at LVO - I play lots of ITC events. Except for dumb rules like magic boxes there is nothing significant about it. To be honest a defensive powerhouse deathball benefits a lot from your entire army not being able to focus down 1 unit.

So what you're implying here is that the LVO (and other ITC events) aren't using enough terrain?

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I feel like some marine players often have this innate fear over losing units, and gravitate towards resiliency bonuses. But rarely does that work out, imo.

I think there is a lot of truth in this statement. I have played some form of every major group (and most factions) in Kill Team for at this point. Strangely enough, I play far more conservatively when playing some sort of power armor with the exception of not-TS/DG Chaos Space Marines. I tend to reserve my CP for things that keep my marines alive rather than increasing their killing potential save re-rolling Injury Rolls. I am not alone in this regard in my group either.

I think it is easy enough to point out that the loss of a primaris marine or other well equipped marine unit is a significant portion of a team/army. I suppose it feels more immediate compared to losing 3 or 4 genestealer cult, guard, ork etc. units. Which might explain some of it. I also think that marine players might naturally be inclined to want a tougher army since that is something that power armor is supposed to give. With dice being dice and some of the weapons out there, it sometimes doesn't feel like marines are all that tough so players might activate seek more ways to increase their resiliency.

I do see in play marine players (including myself) waiting for a break in the enemy lines before committing. Since they aren't pouring that much into firepower the break doesn't sometimes happen and they marines are picked apart to fail to catch up in an objective game.

I see this often playing against marine players. The wait to commit and hoping to break a hole in the line. However, against a good opponent who see's that, you won't see that break and they'll pick apart what they see you trying to protect the most. Not units you want to decoy with because mostly speaking marine units don'thave good decoys with the cost of the units. Why ? It makes it that much harder to push a break in the line when you are trying to turtle up to limit losses. You aren't spending things on offensive press when its all going towards safety.

The thing is, everything in this game is sold cheap, or sold hard but its all gonna die. The most effective marine lists and players don't hold it back, they go in when needed, settle on a plan and execute and make the hole even if its not already there as other wise you just sit back and get torn apart waiting for the break that may never happen. Marines can't play the late game reasonably well as they will get ripped apart in attrition, doesn't matter if they eat up hundreds of guard if hundreds yet remain and they have taken 20 or more expensive marines.

I wouldn't play iron hands most likely, and actually kind of see more good in the use of say Ultramarines because marine should shock assault. You can't wait for the battle to come to you, or to wait for an opening, Marines make the opening. They kick that door down and lower the boot, they are shock troops and function best in the thick of it. If you can out plan your opponent and hit him so hard he has to try and protect himself he'll make mistakes and you just have to keep pressing. You may not always win, but turtling won't always win for you either. However if you set the pace of the battle and pick where to engage you can pick your hill to live or die on as it were.

Now I'm sure people will disagree with this assessment but marines are one of the armies that I'm never cautious with as they need to get the game in hand quick as they don't have the numbers to last, gotta do damage fast and engage quick. The more elite the marine list, the more this is needed. This is where I think IH will suffer. As I'd not be afraid of them doing some damage to me, I'd outnumber them by a large degree but once the castle starts to crack they've lost the edge. Just pick your section of wall to crumble and tear it down while you're still advancing, let them eat the chaff and by the end of the game they won't have the numbers left to turn the tide and it'll end up being a foreseen outcome. I'd be more concerned of the Marine force putting pressure on me and forcing me to respond and actually plan out my advances.

Basically, I'm in favor of high aggro marine tactics. Worse comes to worse at least you'll know the outcome faster than a slow bleed through attrition, and probably have had a good deal of excitement and close calls along the way, the best case you surprise the heck out of who you are playing against or set the pace. You won't win by a ton most likely but victory is victory clean or messy, it's a win. I usually like it messy, as Marines at least.

The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.

Maybe IH lists without ferrus and the stone that point on MSU and mobility will be quite strong, but parking lots? Lol, those are hardly going to be a concern.

 Crimson wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
So the long and short is - different chapters promote different play styles through different units? Colour me shocked. Iron hands better with vehicles, Xeno obsessed with repulsors = makes sense.

No, Iron Hands is massively better for vehicles, and still really good for other units. I really don't see how other chapters can compete with this.

Well IH maybe good, but RG are going to be a lot more annoying and feels bad man to play against, specially with older armies. And some people really like to play armies that make others feel bad. IH are just a solid to good army, but it doesn't make the opponent unable to play his army, or make him buy new models for it, because the old ways of playing are no longer valid.

 Xenomancers wrote:
6+++ is a lot better now with reroll all hits auras being all over the place. -1 to hit at 12" has become pretty weak.

so you think Ulthwe is better than Alaitoc.Eldar players and tournament results would beg to differ.

But hey, its your opinion and your choice how to build your army. I promise not to care about any of your usual whining if you somehow do not auto-win all your games because you have misunderstood what is actually good in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 ewar wrote:


What do you think about the RG abilities though? The infiltration shenanigans, teleporting characters, advance and charge, pre game move with advance... they are going to be absolutely unprecedented as an early pressure army I think. Putting a blob of aggressors in your face turn 1, supported by 10 VV with th/sh etc. They will take apart an IH castle in no time, whilst having massive board control.

RG are kinda weird. Yes, they have some really nasty tricks. Still, their bonuses are kinda confused. Their super doctrine works in tactical, and is basically good for sniper weapons... almost all of which are heavy. They have tricks to get close to the enemy... but their chapter tactic requires to keep the distance. But yeah, if I had to choose one other chapter that would have chance defeating the IH, it would definitely be them. It is just that I'm not sure that they're nearly as universally good versus variety of foes as the IH are.

I think Raven Guard still have lots of options after list building and all the way through the game. They can kite an opponent and play the mission or they can play an aggressive game putting an opponent under massive pressure. In all cases they are strong at picking apart the glue that holds the opposing army together, whereas other factions might tend towards trying to simply blow opposition off the table by sheer force of mathammer. A well designed RG list can play differently depending on the mission (in tournament sets where the missions meaningfully differ from one another), the terrain and the opposing list. Good players should value that flexibility very highly. When an opponent sees a RG army list they do not immediately know how it is going to play through the game, they must stay on their toes and their player skill will be challenged more than it would by a more predictable army list.

In the hands of a less skilled player Raven Guard can be a liability, giving you meaningful choices about how to play on the table also gives you meaningful opportunities to make the wrong choice and throw the game away. Iron Hands are definitely the safer choice for the player who is liable to make poor decisions on the table, it presents you (and your opponent) with fewer tactical challenges.

Spoletta wrote:

Maybe IH lists without ferrus and the stone that point on MSU and mobility will be quite strong, but parking lots? Lol, those are hardly going to be a concern.

Ding ding ding. Successors running mechanized lists with dreadnought and flyer support are where IH are going to shine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Listydy doo-da

Your inability to build a list that utilizes the Smurf super-doctrine is a statement on your list building skills, not the efficacy of said super-doctrine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is irrelevant. The game is mostly played on planet bowling ball.

Not even close to reality.

Let me preface this by saying: I would have absolutely no issue with anyone playing models with rules different to their paint scheme, unless it was particularly difficult to tell what was what, and they were cherrypicking units. A painted army is often better than I expect, and for that, if you have blue guys, dressed as ultras, but you want them to act like Iron hands - Go for it.

That out of the way, lemme get anecdotal and misty-eyed. I've been playing Black Templars for about 5 years now. We got models (sword bretheren) that have had their rules taken from us. We've had some pretty cruddy, not-the-worst-but-still-low-tier rules, chapter tactics relics etc. It wasn't until the end of 7th ed., when Marine Formations were pretty hellishly strong, that we even got a formation, only months later to have 8th drop - and even then, odds were, you'd just be feeding your enemy kill points, anywho. That's not to say the army was irredeemable, but...

...I never won a single game with my templars. And that remains true to this day.

And I love them for it. I play a massed, footslog-heavy crusading list, focused on short-ranged firefighting and getting into CC. Sure, I lose a lot of those gunfights, and often times once I get into CC, I get pasted by something that's just straight fightier than me. I wouldn't change a thing. I love my templars, I love their aesthetic, the fluff and the theme. Often, it's those suicidal charges into the jaws of death, through hails of enemy bullets that make for the most fun moments ingame. When, after putting up with unending punishment, to see my marines cut a swathe through the enemy lines, or fell a great foe hand-to-hand, to suddenly see the tide turn, and a glimmer of victory shine on the far side of the tabletop? There's no better feeling in 40k, in my opinion, than running a fluffy army that you love, and then having a close, exciting game and then nearly winning it. (except maybe winning, but so far only my admech can do that...) An army doesn't have to be on the very cutting edge of the most optimized meta to be fun. Hell, it doesn't even have to be all that good, and you can still get some surprisingly close games in. Sure, you might not get to trounce that tourney-topping, meta-shattering, soup netlist from hell, but like, sounds like you already have a pretty tough army, with all that considered. A bit of bad dice rolling (a la myself) from your opponent, and you could probably very easily get a win against a list like that. Take it from someone who has more than most marine chapters - a single upgrade sprue, 3 characters and a special unit - Ultramarines are absolutely spoiled for choice in terms of both modeling opportunities and strategic flexibility. Sure, other armies may be able to do some things better than you can. No army, in the entire citadel range, can do everything in the way an Ultramarine is able.

You bought marines. You painted them as Ultramarines. Sounds like you played them as Ultramarines, too. Surely you must have some attachment to the chapter you play as? Why the sudden change of heart? As a gamer, I'd say - sure, play them as you'd like, let's set up a match and have a laugh.

But as a Space Marine? As a loyal son of Rogal Dorn? As a Black Templar, who's legacy traces back to the seige of Terra, and the defense of the Emperor upon the very steps of his sacred palace?

How dare you stand with that emblazoned upon yourself, and proclaim to have been a son of Guilliman. Have some pride! When the Empire was ashes, who rebuilt it? When the legions cried out for leadership, who answered their calls? Who's knowledge of combat, strategy and warfare created the Codex Astartes? When Calgar's arms were ripped off by the Xeno foe, did he waver, did he cringe, turn tail and last out his days on a battleship, directing orbital strikes from the safety of a command bridge? NO, SIR! He got massive metal fists with guns on them!

So now, you too, find yourself up against the wall. What will it be? Throw in the towel, and abandon your chapter? Or are you gonna get some massive metal fists with guns on them, too, and punch the everliving bejaysus out of whatever dares challenge the might of Ultramar?

I have a strange urge to throw Alaitoc flyers into trash and actually respect marine players. What is this feeling?

 Shadenuat wrote:
I have a strange urge to throw Alaitoc flyers into trash and actually respect marine players. What is this feeling?

Probably something you ate, it'll pass.