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Dandelion wrote:
I personally hold myself to a fairly high standard of WYSIWYG, if it's modelled it has it. I've only ever done minor kitbashes for characters (e.g. a fireblade by mixing fire warriors and pathfinders), but I still don't see why paint scheme matters. Not to mention I wouldn't know which rules are for which faction. Seriously, for non-Tau players, what color is Daly'th* without looking it up?

Spoiler:

Actually, it's Dal'yth but I bet you didn't notice because I didn't at first
also I actually don't know the color scheme because it's not in the codex and I can't find it anywhere

I'd say it's less WYSIWYG than Fair Weather Fandom. I do suspect - if GW continues the "plan" to stop the counts-as movement, they will eventually do a your paint job either must be custom, or it must be what you painted i.e. if you painted Ultras you're Ultras.

Beyond that, some people have already mentioned WAAC. I wouldn't go that far, but I am going to smirk and judge most people playing with blue Iron Hands and Imperial Fists. Some of them could have painted blue before they knew you could paint yellow or black. Most of them will just be admitting they want to play easy mode and they're just chasing the Flavor Of The Month.

To the OP are they not blue salamanders or Imp fists by now?

Why not run them as orks and say it's looted power armour

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3+ with a 5++ on a 12 point model is somehow REALLY good...
However, a 6+ 7 point model getting a 5+ is somehow bad? Man some of y'all need to learn to calculate how much better that is.

The entire daemons codex disagrees.

Daemons start with the 5++ in the first place compared to Orks, so your point being?

Don't know, you tell me. You are the one defending Xenomancer's claim that paying 75/115 points for 5++ saves on 7 point models is a "crazy defensive buff".

Which must mean that all daemon infantry is friggin' invincible, right?

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3+ with a 5++ on a 12 point model is somehow REALLY good...
However, a 6+ 7 point model getting a 5+ is somehow bad? Man some of y'all need to learn to calculate how much better that is.

The entire daemons codex disagrees.

Daemons start with the 5++ in the first place compared to Orks, so your point being?

Don't know, you tell me. You are the one defending Xenomancer's claim that paying 75/115 points for 5++ saves on 7 point models is a "crazy defensive buff".

Which must mean that all daemon infantry is friggin' invincible, right?

To be fair, Xeno is right here.

An addded invul save is better the closer it is to the actual save of the model and the more wounds on the model.

A 5++ on a mono wound 3+ model is many times useless. It is a situational buff that in the majority of the games will be ininfluent. You have to shoot at it with AP-3 weapons when the target is not in cover to notice a difference, and even there, it is just a save going from 6+ to 5+. Ask a thousand son player how many times that 5++ actually serves a purpose. On multi wound models it is already much better, since weapons with high damage also tend to have high AP. The iron father is good because he gives a 5++ to vehicles, surely not because it buffs infantry.

A 5++ save on a 6+ model is REALLY good, it is pretty much a +50% increase in model durability against everything except AP 0.

That's already assuming that 7 ppm is a decent price for a T4/6+ model defensive stat line. If so, I'd like primaris to be costed accordingly at 28 points per model as they are more than twice as likely to make an armor safe against most weapons in the game and have twice as many wounds.

The issue is that you're saying the 5++ gives increased value for those models, as a 7pt model priced to die easily suddenly survives 33% of the time. But the same save is nearly worthless on a 3+ marine because it takes AP-3 for it to come into play.

So what you're telling me is marines are more than twice as durable than an ork boy to most weapons, even with a 5++, but less than double the points?

Is a KFF good value for orks? Yes. Is it making it sound like you think marines are insanely survivable? Also yes.

 Jidmah wrote:
That's already assuming that 7 ppm is a decent price for a T4/6+ model defensive stat line. If so, I'd like primaris to be costed accordingly at 28 points per model as they are more than twice as likely to make an armor safe against most weapons in the game and have twice as many wounds.

but that is not true, most weapons come with -1 or -2 save mod, making the marines save on +4 or +5, an orc for 7pts with a KFF does not care if he is getting by a -1 or -10mod weapon, only thing that matters is the number of shots. And even there the orcs are going to be more resilient then marines, by sole fact of costing less. 7pts per orc means you get 3 per lets say a GK strike, and I will make the bold claim without using math, that 3 orcs for 7pts are more resilient then one strike for 21pts. Heck they are probably more resilient then a 46pts GK terminator who comes with a build in +5inv an 2W.

Karol wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
That's already assuming that 7 ppm is a decent price for a T4/6+ model defensive stat line. If so, I'd like primaris to be costed accordingly at 28 points per model as they are more than twice as likely to make an armor safe against most weapons in the game and have twice as many wounds.

but that is not true, most weapons come with -1 or -2 save mod, making the marines save on +4 or +5, an orc for 7pts with a KFF does not care if he is getting by a -1 or -10mod weapon, only thing that matters is the number of shots. And even there the orcs are going to be more resilient then marines, by sole fact of costing less. 7pts per orc means you get 3 per lets say a GK strike, and I will make the bold claim without using math, that 3 orcs for 7pts are more resilient then one strike for 21pts. Heck they are probably more resilient then a 46pts GK terminator who comes with a build in +5inv an 2W.

1. An ork with KFF is not 7 pts. In competitive lists, the vast majority of ork boyz will not benefit from a KFF, as they are jumping or tellyporting in range, neither happens within 9" of a KFF unless you have a 159 wazbom blastajet within 9" of all models, which for some reason didn't get downed first. KFF first and foremost serve as cheap battalion fillers and to protect lootas, dakkajets and meks guns from alpha-strikes. When legends comes, the cheapest KFF will be 115 points on a character that will not be able to follow any unit trying to cross the field.
2. I already assumed that all weapons are AP-2 in favor of the marines. 5+ is twice as good as 6+ and 2W is twice as good as 1W. Therefore, a primaris marine is four times as survivable as a regular ork.
3. Everything is awesome survivable compared to strike teams. The rank&file marine today is an intercessor or a scout, not a tactical marine. Single wound power-armored marines see next to no play unless they are carrying expensive weapons around like stern guard or devs. Any math done against the good old MEQ is all but irrelevant.

Dandelion wrote:
I personally hold myself to a fairly high standard of WYSIWYG, if it's modelled it has it. I've only ever done minor kitbashes for characters (e.g. a fireblade by mixing fire warriors and pathfinders), but I still don't see why paint scheme matters. Not to mention I wouldn't know which rules are for which faction. Seriously, for non-Tau players, what color is Daly'th* without looking it up?

Spoiler:

Actually, it's Dal'yth but I bet you didn't notice because I didn't at first
also I actually don't know the color scheme because it's not in the codex and I can't find it anywhere

Well as it is what regiment/clan/chapter/whatever unit has tends to matter more these days than the actual weapon. So if you want to be able to see most important thing about unit quickly it's clan/regiment/chapter/whatever rather than weapon that you need to know.

1. An ork with KFF is not 7 pts. In competitive lists, the vast majority of ork boyz will not benefit from a KFF, as they are jumping or tellyporting in range, neither happens within 9" of a KFF unless you have a 159 wazbom blastajet within 9" of all models, which for some reason didn't get downed first. KFF first and foremost serve as cheap battalion fillers and to protect lootas, dakkajets and meks guns from alpha-strikes. When legends comes, the cheapest KFF will be 115 points on a character that will not be able to follow any unit trying to cross the field.

you really want to out bid GK on model costs.I am comparing a boy to a strike, because they are troops. you think GK get an efficient HQ for 115pt, and they can't keep up with something like interceptors either, and we have deep strike and gate.

anything swarm in the game is more resilient then elite stuff. A marine could have a +2sv, and he still would be less efficient then a IG trooper. a 28 primaris intercessor would be laughable, comparing to almost all models in the game, specially when he would die to a plasma shot from that under IG guardsman.

Are we talking about playing blue Grey Knights now or something?

Lemondish wrote:
Are we talking about playing blue Grey Knights now or something?

eh It's Karol. I imagine conversations in life with him go something like this.

"Nice weather we're having today innit?"

"Not really, I saw a grey cloud in the sky speaking of grey, grey knights suck"

"What?"

"Yeah I know, what where GW thinking"

well strikes at 21 pts exist. 28 pts intercesors do not so it is harder to compare them to orcs, as no one played orcs vs marines with those point costs. the idea that somehow marine should be 28pts to balance a +5inv vs 7pts orcs is so over the top, that to have a real example of how false that argument is to compare them to something that costs similar. And technicaly strikes would be 7pts cheaper in such a test scenario, so would be "better" then higher price intercessors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion 780238 10577685 wrote:
"Nice weather we're having today innit?"

an no one here asks about weather, because there is maybe like three weeks good weather here. In fact a question how the is weather is considered to be bit of an insult, if both people are in the same place.

Spoletta wrote:


A 5++ save on a 6+ model is REALLY good, it is pretty much a +50% increase in model durability against everything except AP 0.

Wait, what? Why would you use the 6+ instead of the 5++ just because it was an AP 0 attack?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
That's already assuming that 7 ppm is a decent price for a T4/6+ model defensive stat line. If so, I'd like primaris to be costed accordingly at 28 points per model as they are more than twice as likely to make an armor safe against most weapons in the game and have twice as many wounds.

You're not allowing for diminishing returns vs High AP and/or Multi-damage. A t4 6+ model with two wounds is not worth 14 points. It doesn't get double the shots, with double the guns, it still dies to a 2 damage weapon, so the second wound is worth less than those 7 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
and 2W is twice as good as 1W.

Again, no, it's not. 2W is between 1.000001 and 2 times as good. Guard are 4 Points per model. 170 points of Guard will net you about 42 guardsmen. 170 points of Intercessors will land you 10 Intercessors. The guardsmen will have 42 to 84 shots, and 42 wounds across 42 models requiring 42+ attacks at them. The 10 Intercessors will have 10 to 20 shots (or 30 if you bump to 180 points vs 45 guardsmen with 45-90 shots, and 45 wounds needing 45+ Attacks) with 20 wounds across 10 models requiring 10+ attacks.

Because excess wounds do not carry over, 45 wounds on 45 bodies is better than 45 wounds on 1 body. 2 wounds is not twice as good as 1 wound.

Breton wrote:

Spoletta wrote:


A 5++ save on a 6+ model is REALLY good, it is pretty much a +50% increase in model durability against everything except AP 0.

Wait, what? Why would you use the 6+ instead of the 5++ just because it was an AP 0 attack?

Hmm, never?
Sorry, i fail to understand your post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

2. I already assumed that all weapons are AP-2 in favor of the marines. 5+ is twice as good as 6+ and 2W is twice as good as 1W. Therefore, a primaris marine is four times as survivable as a regular ork.

Check your math.
A 5+ is 25% better than a 6+.
Let's assume that 2W is twice as good as 1W (it isn't).

7*1.25*2= 17.5

The actual cost of an intercessor.

Karol wrote:

1. An ork with KFF is not 7 pts. In competitive lists, the vast majority of ork boyz will not benefit from a KFF, as they are jumping or tellyporting in range, neither happens within 9" of a KFF unless you have a 159 wazbom blastajet within 9" of all models, which for some reason didn't get downed first. KFF first and foremost serve as cheap battalion fillers and to protect lootas, dakkajets and meks guns from alpha-strikes. When legends comes, the cheapest KFF will be 115 points on a character that will not be able to follow any unit trying to cross the field.

you really want to out bid GK on model costs.I am comparing a boy to a strike, because they are troops. you think GK get an efficient HQ for 115pt, and they can't keep up with something like interceptors either, and we have deep strike and gate.

anything swarm in the game is more resilient then elite stuff. A marine could have a +2sv, and he still would be less efficient then a IG trooper. a 28 primaris intercessor would be laughable, comparing to almost all models in the game, specially when he would die to a plasma shot from that under IG guardsman.

No, the point is that I don't want to compare anything to GK, ever.

Compared to GK, anything looks fine. You can't use a measuring stick that bent and broken in half.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Check your math.
A 5+ is 25% better than a 6+.

5+ saves twice as many bolter shots than 6+.

No, the point is that I don't want to compare anything to GK, ever.

Compared to GK, anything looks fine. You can't use a measuring stick that bent and broken in half.

well I wanted to use the most example closest to you the 28pts primaris. But if you want, well you can take the old pre point drop intercessors, 7pts orcs are better then those too, the difference is only in the degree.

5+ saves twice as many bolter shots than 6+.

yes, but it works like that if you have hundrads of models to get a flat avarge roll over all games. Marines general do not have 200 models in their armies, or 200 wounds. Which means for an orcs a save of +5 is stronger then for marine force with the same +5 inv.

Spoletta wrote:

Breton wrote:

Spoletta wrote:


A 5++ save on a 6+ model is REALLY good, it is pretty much a +50% increase in model durability against everything except AP 0.

Wait, what? Why would you use the 6+ instead of the 5++ just because it was an AP 0 attack?

Hmm, never?
Sorry, i fail to understand your post.

A 5++ is pretty much an increase over a 6+ against everything. I'm not sure why you singled out AP0

Karol wrote:
yes, but it works like that if you have hundrads of models to get a flat avarge roll over all games. Marines general do not have 200 models in their armies, or 200 wounds. Which means for an orcs a save of +5 is stronger then for marine force with the same +5 inv.

I don't know where to start. Simply every single thing you said in that sentence is wrong.

Contrary to usual Marine player non-knowledge of the ork codex, the KFF does not automatically provide every model on the table with a save, can be killed and is not free.

 Jidmah wrote:

Karol wrote:
yes, but it works like that if you have hundrads of models to get a flat avarge roll over all games. Marines general do not have 200 models in their armies, or 200 wounds. Which means for an orcs a save of +5 is stronger then for marine force with the same +5 inv.

I don't know where to start. Simply every single thing you said in that sentence is wrong.

Contrary to usual Marine player non-knowledge of the ork codex, the KFF does not automatically provide every model on the table with a save, can be killed and is not free.

Yeah and the new Techmarine guy is also not able to provide a 5++ to everyone, is not free, and dies pretty easily too.

Main difference is that a 5++ goes a longer way to making Ork models better as they already have naturally lower saves.

 Jidmah wrote:

A 5+ is 25% better than a 6+.

5+ saves twice as many bolter shots than 6+.

I mean, I'm reading all that is being said, but I need to hear more about Grey Knights.

 Jidmah wrote:

Karol wrote:
yes, but it works like that if you have hundrads of models to get a flat avarge roll over all games. Marines general do not have 200 models in their armies, or 200 wounds. Which means for an orcs a save of +5 is stronger then for marine force with the same +5 inv.

I don't know where to start. Simply every single thing you said in that sentence is wrong.

Contrary to usual Marine player non-knowledge of the ork codex, the KFF does not automatically provide every model on the table with a save, can be killed and is not free.

it's an aura ability. covers units out to 9 inches. which is decent and very useful but hardly game breaking.

So is the OP now worrying if he’ll be judged for switching to Salamanders? ;-)

Dat strat tho.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
So is the OP now worrying if he’ll be judged for switching to Salamanders? ;-)

Dat strat tho.

Tbf that Salamander tactic is,spicy.
Also a bit off, as in grots or cultist come morge to mind as fodder?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah and the new Techmarine guy is also not able to provide a 5++ to everyone, is not free, and dies pretty easily too.

Main difference is that a 5++ goes a longer way to making Ork models better as they already have naturally lower saves.

And DA could have a 4++ save for all of the edition. No one cares.

The original argument was that orks win tournaments because, according to Xenomancer, they have a crazy good defensive buff.

Do you agree or disagree that gretchin/boyz with a KFF are a "crazy good defensive option" powerful enough to compare with 3++ castellans, fully buffed shining spears or plague bearers?

Because that's what this argument is all about.

I hope we hear more creaking wheels from the weight of more bandwagon jumping. Gotta be the best marines in town, which color will it be ?..All the colors of the rainbow united under the most recent codex release.

Can't wait for the new Deathwatch to roll out and then this will all fall to the way side as we'll hear once more. " Unless you're a Deathwatch don't even bother playing marines. " I'm calling it now.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Karol wrote:
yes, but it works like that if you have hundrads of models to get a flat avarge roll over all games. Marines general do not have 200 models in their armies, or 200 wounds. Which means for an orcs a save of +5 is stronger then for marine force with the same +5 inv.

I don't know where to start. Simply every single thing you said in that sentence is wrong.

Contrary to usual Marine player non-knowledge of the ork codex, the KFF does not automatically provide every model on the table with a save, can be killed and is not free.

it's an aura ability. covers units out to 9 inches. which is decent and very useful but hardly game breaking.

I agree, and never claimed the opposite. It's well worth it's points, but not carrying orks to tournament wins like Xenomancer is claiming.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sorry bud. When a unit should be getting no save at all but instead gets a 5++ save which is undeniable it is "an insane defensive buff". If it's so terrible why does every ork list include it? Most I see include more than 1. Plus if you read my response I said "used to get abused" meaning I understand that grot shield got slightly nerfed.

Because when you can give your army a chance of not being shot straight off the board, as opposed to guaranteeing that they'll be shot straight off the board, you take the chance. Even when its a bad one.

Doesn't make it good. Just less bad.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Marines have been overcosted all edition. They basically gave every unit in the army -1 AP and +1 A + a special bonus rule + improved chapter tactics and they probably are one of the best armies in the game right now but DA don't have any of that yet. Just wait. Azreal buffed units with these bonuses will be literally insane.

You heard it here first folks, Dark Angels with a doctrine are broken OP already.

Hum - a hypothetical situation as we don't know what rules the DA will have but they have one of the best starting points. A 4++ reroll all hits aura from azreal for infantry.